Things New To Me

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People can unintentionally pray to God for what is evil. That is why Christ taught us to pray "Thy Will be done" because we don't know all that God knows - the root causes for why the world does what it does. You can't believe in scripture if you ignore all the prophets and Jesus was also a prophet. You are separating plan and foreknowledge, by saying the plan is adaptable to reaction - this still requires foreknowledge.

God has not a foreknowledge plan for man but an elected plan. He knew Jerimiah in the Womb but by election said he ordained him as a prophet.

Jesus was not teaching us to pray if it be thy will. Jesus knew God's will when He prayed. Jesus was not confused about God's will and the Cross. Jesus said if you will, make another way, However your will be done.

We are taught instead to ask Wisdom which God gives to every man liberally and does not hold back. We take that Wisdom and act.

We never pray wondering what God's will is. You don't get anywhere doing that.


And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
(1Jn 5:14-15)

See, we have to know his will "BEFORE" we ask or pray. We have a whole bible that tells us his will and we can get wisdom if needed.

If we need direction we seek Wisdom which God gives to everyone that ask.

The Holy Spirit will help us pray "ACCORDING" to the will of God for the saints.

glad that is clear.
 
MichaelH - you know I love you, so I hope this post doesn't offend you. Jesus was asked by His disciples, "How should we pray" and Christ told them to surrender their will to God's. And he said this because this stops all "accidental/non intentional" prayers that unknowingly align with evil. Because God knows all things and we don't and never will.
You said a few posts back that you wanted to know from God if your ministry had saved someone (paraphrasing). You don't save anyone - the individual has sole choice in this matter. If you plant weeds along with seeds of truth, who knows what seeds will catch and which ones won't. God leaves this to the individual's free will to choose or reject. And within this free will is left the ability for the individual to choose good or evil.
 
I only expounded on one because I post many already in this thread. All say different than what you suggest your scriptures say. If you will focus on all scripture then we have something to talk about. No scripture can contradict any other scripture.

There are two conditions. From and Before the foundation of the World.

These events are Before, just 4 mentioned.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Joh 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


Jesus Given Glory by the Father before the Earth was Made.
Jesus Loved by the Father before the Earth was Made.
We have been chosen to be in him before the Earth was Made.
Jesus was Known before the Earth Was made. (Foreordained means to know before hand)
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Everything was made for and through Jesus, whom God had given Glory before the Earth was made. Everything consist through The Son of God.

The whole plan was to put all of creation under Jesus the Son of God. The Worlds were made for Jesus.

Abdicate: There is ZERO scripture that tells us God planned to have to murder his son for mankind. That plan came when the Lord Spoke to Satan, and Adam. God you shall bruise his heel and He shall bruise your head.

The Plan was always to bring fourth the Son for All of God's creation. Everything was Made for Jesus, The father gave Glory to Jesus before the Earth was even created.

All scriptures Pointing to "From the foundation of the World"

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Is all that has happened here since Adam's Fall. Adam broke mans fellowship with God, and that is when the Word went out to show light from dark. All those that heard the prophets and obeyed God from the Foundation of the World were put in the Lambs book of Life, who was Slain from this World.

The election was the son was always planed to have preeminence. That will never change, and would have happened if Adam blew it or not. God's creation was made For Jesus and through Jesus the Son of God.

Those that believe on the Son of God have eternal life. (Mans choice, not election or foreknowledge)

1) There can be no such thing as Foreknowledge besides what God told us. He knows the heart of man and knows all things, even the number of hair on your head.

2) His foreknowledge is his plan for each man He created to make it and obey him. He does not plan or make things that cause him grief or disobey him. He creates Evil, as he made everything, but anything that became evil was not his fault.

3) Election (Calvinism) would be the only other thing that makes sense unless God had very limited foreknowledge which can't be true. Election can't be true because of the many counter scriptures.


It really amazes me that you can say that and actually believe God doesn't know the future. There is a verse that says prophecy is so you can know God is God. I cannot find the verse and I asked the Lord why, and He said: because it is impossible for anyone to learn that which he thinks he already knows and it would be a waste of my time. I feel for you, I really do and I hope you see the truth some day.
 
It really amazes me that you can say that and actually believe God doesn't know the future. There is a verse that says prophecy is so you can know God is God. I cannot find the verse and I asked the Lord why, and He said: because it is impossible for anyone to learn that which he thinks he already knows and it would be a waste of my time. I feel for you, I really do and I hope you see the truth some day.

Prophecy is God speaking through man. God speaks, it happens. That is not foreknowledge, that is not God just sitting around by his crystal ball hoping to see what happens next.

God declares the end from the Beginning.

He causes it, not just gets a clue from time to time on what happens next.
 
MichaelH - you know I love you, so I hope this post doesn't offend you. Jesus was asked by His disciples, "How should we pray" and Christ told them to surrender their will to God's. And he said this because this stops all "accidental/non intentional" prayers that unknowingly align with evil. Because God knows all things and we don't and never will.
You said a few posts back that you wanted to know from God if your ministry had saved someone (paraphrasing). You don't save anyone - the individual has sole choice in this matter. If you plant weeds along with seeds of truth, who knows what seeds will catch and which ones won't. God leaves this to the individual's free will to choose or reject. And within this free will is left the ability for the individual to choose good or evil.

NO, I was praying for someone to get saved and was sort of not seeing the results I wanted and just asked God if they were getting saved or not.

I guess we don't ask that but what God said did not make sense because I have been taught God lives outside of time and Knows everything we are going to do and choose.

Come to find out I was lied to and there are Zero scriptures that say anything at all like that.

What God does have is the ability to know our heart perfectly and has wisdom we can't fathom.

He knows what color your going to pick, knows with good certainty if your going to fall to that sin. What He does not know is if you will change your heart toward him or away from him.

We see that in Hezekiah. God sent Isaiah to go tell him to get your house in order, your going to die. Hezekiah repented and turned his face to the wall. So God sends Isaiah back and tells him that He gets another 15 years.

God gives us a change to choose him or not choose him.

Yes, you are Gods favorite.

Blessings.
 
Mikey - the really sad thing is that you have no idea what you are talking about, but the glare of your own ego keep you from seeing the truth. God knows all past and all future, He is omniscient, all knowing. He exists outside of time, and thus knows every thing that any and every one will ever do. He does not make them do anything, but He has known the choices that each of us would make before the dawn of time.
 
Mikey - the really sad thing is that you have no idea what you are talking about, but the glare of your own ego keep you from seeing the truth. God knows all past and all future, He is omniscient, all knowing. He exists outside of time, and thus knows every thing that any and every one will ever do. He does not make them do anything, but He has known the choices that each of us would make before the dawn of time.

(cough) I know this is way off the opening post, but I have a cat that my younger brother gave me from his litter about 6 months before he died. I called him Maximus Brat. He looks just like Glomung's avatar. Only his few, sparse white hairs are under his chin. As long as I have known Glomung, who has been here before I got here, he has always shot from the hip, straight and true, and sometimes he has agreed with me. :) He has always respected all posters, no matter whether he disagrees or not.
If we all did as Glomung, we would be better off.
Sorry Glomung, for calling attention, but I delight in your presence.
 
ehmmm, when are they going to pull the plug on this foolishness, it doesn't follow the rules or the Statement of Faith we all agreed to, and it's certainly not bringing glory to our Lord Jesus Christ!

That list of copeland's heresy, I wish I had never read it, that is just satanic blasphemy!!!

Also, we need to listen and act on the command of Paul,

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. Tit 3:9-11

It's time that we who are mature in the Lord start thinking about protecting the flock from this (as Spurgeon called them).........., blindmouths!

Gene
 
Prophecy is God speaking through man. God speaks, it happens. That is not foreknowledge, that is not God just sitting around by his crystal ball hoping to see what happens next.

God declares the end from the Beginning.

He causes it, not just gets a clue from time to time on what happens next.

I think you get Q confused with God! I've seen that episode where Q makes the Enterprise crew play like robin hood and says "I don't know what's coming! I've given it a life of its own!" and "Oh! I didn't see that coming!" God knows all, past, present, future, and eternity. You don't understand the damage of your kind of thinking. That thinking puts a limit on God and diminishes Him in ways you cannot comprehend. Please repent and be free of this false logic.
 
I think you get Q confused with God! I've seen that episode where Q makes the Enterprise crew play like robin hood and says "I don't know what's coming! I've given it a life of its own!" and "Oh! I didn't see that coming!" God knows all, past, present, future, and eternity. You don't understand the damage of your kind of thinking. That thinking puts a limit on God and diminishes Him in ways you cannot comprehend. Please repent and be free of this false logic.

Q?

You accuse me of not being nice?

The problem is I have something called scripture to back everything I am telling you. You have zero to back up God's divine fortune telling ability.

God does know the heart and has wisdom past our understanding. This naturally gives him great insight to things.

However, as I told you, Prophecy is not fortune telling.

2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


Prophecy in Scripture is not God sitting by his crystal ball as you think.
It's not God waiting on his next revelation of the future.

All Prophecy is God creating the future, no God knowing the future through some gypsy powers.


You do know the difference of just knowing something and causing something right?


If God speaks it stands fast.

Psa 105:34
He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number,


Psa 33:9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.


I am going to just assume that you think God's Spirit was hovering over the face of the deep, looking into his crystal ball, when suddenly God got a clue and said, "I predict that if I say Light Be then I am pretty sure there will be light."

I suppose you think God looking though his crystal ball saw a ass (Donkey) and watched it wonder over to a colt then got an idea and told his prophet......... "Hey, write this down, it just came in. A donkey will be next to a colt for Jesus. Just saw this in my awesome crystal ball."

All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, and a colt the foal of an ass.
(Mat 21:4-5)

You have it all figured out Abdicate, your a genius. I should have seen it sooner............ Your IQ is just overwhelming me.
I would give 20 more examples, but I suspect it won't help you.

Why do I even wast my time with certain people.
 
Ya know when you get angry about what you read and you resort to full on insults, there's something wrong with your thinking. It's caused by pride. Even if you're right, attitudes like that demolish any credibility you might have. I feel for you sir I really do.
 
MichaelH - you are the only one mentioning prophecy and fortune telling in the same sentence. You have said that God's Will creates the beginning and end - so how could you not see that He knows all of the in-between ahead of time? Prophecy IS telling people what will happen in the future. Christ knew ahead of time that Judas would betray him and that Peter would deny Him 3 times before the morning. Christ knew His own death of the flesh was imminent - that's why He asked if the cup could be taken from Him. Christ was the fullfillment of prophecy, made ahead of time. You seem to be substituting God's "wisdom" for God's knowledge, of what has been, is now, and will be.
 
Ya know when you get angry about what you read and you resort to full on insults, there's something wrong with your thinking. It's caused by pride. Even if you're right, attitudes like that demolish any credibility you might have. I feel for you sir I really do.

Your right about effecting credibility. You can't convey any message to someone with the wrong spirit.

however, I am not mad about anything either.

The whole thing started when I brought up something Brother Copeland said in a book I was reading. He said God knew and had a plan for man before the Foundation of the World, because He knew Adam would blow it.

I was just thinking, Where is your Scripture Brother Copeland?

Most do not like the Calvinistic Doctrine. God picks and chooses who Goes to hell, or who does not. It removes anything God said about us having faith in him and making choices and what consequences those choices will bring. It contradicts so many scriptures.

So, people choose to say that Man has a free will, but God knows from start to finish what each man will choose anyway.
They keep this concept of the Sovereignty of God, because God does not choose for us, but knows anyway.

My point was that both positions lack one thing. They lack scripture and can't explain the many counter scriptures.

Someone asked me why did not Israel cry out sooner to God who were slaves of Egypt. It was God's plan to bring them out. Why wait 400 years.

They had no choice but to wait.

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
(Gen 15:13-14)

When God says they shall be afflicted for 400 years, then nothing changes that. God was rounding up Abraham's seed, waiting until they multiplied, Giving Pharaoh great wealth, and setting up for the seed of Abraham to be many and wealthy.

They had no clue as to who could help them until 400 years pass and God talks to Moses.

We see this as another way God does things. When the plan is ready, he shows man and reveals knowledge to man. If man knows the plan ahead of time, then man messes up what God wanted to do for them.

The problem with the plan is that Israel were rebellious and hard headed. Not God's fault, not part of the plan.

Though God had planed to give them the promise land, none made it but the Children and Joshua and Calab.

God did not have foreknowledge they would be so hard headed, He tried over and over to get their attention. He let Moses intercede for them, but it still did not end well for them.

The plan and knowledge of God was not to take Abraham's seed whom God promised he would bless and end up having to let them all die. Not God's plan, for God said, they always provoke me and are a stiff necked people. They did not enter in because of unbelief.

God operates just like Jesus said he does. If the tree does not bear fruit, put dung around it, give it another year, give it a chance and if it still does not bear fruit, then cut it down and cast it into the fire.

That is not election, not foreknowledge but Love. Love always wants you to make it.
If God is Love, then by nature of Love, there would never be foreknowledge of someone not making it. There would never be an election of someone not making it.
 
Thank you Silk, that is high praise indeed. I hope to live up to it.

There are a few standards I try to live up to, that can best be expressed as their original quotes (don't remember all sources).

"Freely have you recieved, so freely give." - Jesus
"When a man lies he murders some part of the world."
"God hates a coward."
"Life is to be lived slowly, contemplating each action whether it be for good or ill." - an Orthodox Patriarch
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.” - Gandalf Greyhame
 
MichaelH - you are the only one mentioning prophecy and fortune telling in the same sentence. You have said that God's Will creates the beginning and end - so how could you not see that He knows all of the in-between ahead of time? Prophecy IS telling people what will happen in the future. Christ knew ahead of time that Judas would betray him and that Peter would deny Him 3 times before the morning. Christ knew His own death of the flesh was imminent - that's why He asked if the cup could be taken from Him. Christ was the fullfillment of prophecy, made ahead of time. You seem to be substituting God's "wisdom" for God's knowledge, of what has been, is now, and will be.

Prophecy is not fortune telling.

Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

God's Counsel, God's pleasure, God declares and it happens.
This is not fortune telling History. This is creating History.

The knowledge part came before He spoke out from what He wanted and knew what is best.

There is no foreknowledge here. It's like saying I declare I am turning on the light, (you hit the switch) then say see, I knew the light would come on. NO, you knew the light would come on because you planned to turn it on.

God spoke there would be a Donkey next to a colt, Jesus many years later got the Donkey. It was not that God saw into the future, saw a donkey wondering around then came up with a bright Idea for Jesus to use it. God sent the Donkey years before. The Donkey had no choice but to be where God said it would be.

So by what God said, we know how this all ends, because God said so. It's not fortune telling, it's God's wisdom that made the plan and set that plan in motion by the eternal Word.

How God does man:
If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body?
(1Co 12:17-19)

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

God has created us for him. His Workmanship. He set a race before us. A predetermined path that is his plan. Each of us was created with a plan in mind. Not a bad plan but a plan to bless us and prosper us (Jer 29:11)

It's up to us to run that race and stay on that path. It's up to us to walk in what God made ahead for us. If we stay on the path God made, then everything on that race and path is planned way ahead of time.

If we get off that path and do not run that race, then we get out of what God planned. God has no knowledge how that will work out because we left what He made for us.

This is why God repents for making Saul King saying, Saul would not obey me. The plan was not for Saul to disobey. The plan was not to destroy Israel in the desert but to take them to the promise land. The plan was not to remove Eli from the priesthood.

God does not plan failures.
Man plans failures.

Peter: God also knows what the enemy is planing for us.

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.
(Luk 22:31-34)

Jesus knows what pressure the enemy will put on Peter and what the enemy is going to do. He also knows Peter's faith and why He prays for Peter. He knows Peter is not strong enough and will do what the enemy tries to set up and do.

This is not fortune telling. This is wisdom and knowledge of what Satan is going to do. Knowledge about Peter and his faith. Satan is planing to send people to Peter to ask if He knew Jesus.

Jesus said Judas was a devil. There might be more to the story than we know.

 
Your right about effecting credibility. You can't convey any message to someone with the wrong spirit.

however, I am not mad about anything either.

The whole thing started when I brought up something Brother Copeland said in a book I was reading. He said God knew and had a plan for man before the Foundation of the World, because He knew Adam would blow it.

I was just thinking, Where is your Scripture Brother Copeland?

Most do not like the Calvinistic Doctrine. God picks and chooses who Goes to hell, or who does not. It removes anything God said about us having faith in him and making choices and what consequences those choices will bring. It contradicts so many scriptures.

So, people choose to say that Man has a free will, but God knows from start to finish what each man will choose anyway.
They keep this concept of the Sovereignty of God, because God does not choose for us, but knows anyway.

My point was that both positions lack one thing. They lack scripture and can't explain the many counter scriptures.

Someone asked me why did not Israel cry out sooner to God who were slaves of Egypt. It was God's plan to bring them out. Why wait 400 years.

They had no choice but to wait.

And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
(Gen 15:13-14)

When God says they shall be afflicted for 400 years, then nothing changes that. God was rounding up Abraham's seed, waiting until they multiplied, Giving Pharaoh great wealth, and setting up for the seed of Abraham to be many and wealthy.

They had no clue as to who could help them until 400 years pass and God talks to Moses.

We see this as another way God does things. When the plan is ready, he shows man and reveals knowledge to man. If man knows the plan ahead of time, then man messes up what God wanted to do for them.

The problem with the plan is that Israel were rebellious and hard headed. Not God's fault, not part of the plan.

Though God had planed to give them the promise land, none made it but the Children and Joshua and Calab.

God did not have foreknowledge they would be so hard headed, He tried over and over to get their attention. He let Moses intercede for them, but it still did not end well for them.

The plan and knowledge of God was not to take Abraham's seed whom God promised he would bless and end up having to let them all die. Not God's plan, for God said, they always provoke me and are a stiff necked people. They did not enter in because of unbelief.

God operates just like Jesus said he does. If the tree does not bear fruit, put dung around it, give it another year, give it a chance and if it still does not bear fruit, then cut it down and cast it into the fire.

That is not election, not foreknowledge but Love. Love always wants you to make it.
If God is Love, then by nature of Love, there would never be foreknowledge of someone not making it. There would never be an election of someone not making it.


What I do not understand is why the attacks on me personally? I don't know what Calvinists believes to be able to quote them. I also do not listen to many "preachers" and I can honestly say I've never listened to any of Copeland's sermons. So the thoughts you have toward me are expressed as only you linking me with someone else. I've never said God has a crystal ball, only you have. I've only said, over and over, that God knows all. Nothing more. And you attack me with a venom I've never witness before.

God's plan will always be done. He chooses us to follow His will. When we choose not to obey, He moves on to someone else. God's plan has never been to hurt mankind, He died for us. Have you thought that it took 430 years for man to be willing to accept His will? God's will has been since Adam that we all rely 100% on Him and Him alone. Not Him + ourselves. Only Him and Him alone. This is borne out in the fact that though the world was automatically condemned by one man, Adam, that the whole earth isn't automatically saved by one Man, Jesus. ALL have the potential to all be saved, for Jesus died for all throughout time, yet still some go to hell. The only explanation is that it's because they rather choose their own way than that of God's way. This is the first sin, the one that condemned all of mankind - pride. Pride instead of faith. The same sin of the accuser. God told me that in order to be successfully saved, one must understand they can do NOTHING except have faith (which is still a gift from God) in the work of Jesus Christ and with that understanding knowledge repent of their sinful independence.

God knowing all doesn't mean He's not in control, nor does it mean He's not giving us a choice. It means He knows all. We put rules on our children because we want to protect them, they having not enough understanding to protect themselves. Many a parent has to allow their child to suffer the consequences of their own making in the hopes they will see the truth and repent of their independence. To trust us because we love them. Because we know what'll happen, based on our own experiences, doesn't mean we can't give our children choice. God is no different. Our free will makes our obedience all the more sweeter to God. God is a Gentleman and will not force His will on us. If God wanted blind obedience, then He would have made toy robots. But we are made in His image. We have the same creative imaginative power He does towards those things around us. He never intended for us to fly, but we do because He gave us that power to imagine. He even said that nothing will stop us (Genesis 11:6). With great power comes great responsibility and we can't handle that so God broke our means of communication. Today we are seeing prophecy (Daniel 12:4) being fulfilled right before our eyes and most don't even realize it. We are following in the steps of the days of Noah by messing with genes.

You have attempted to fit me into a box I do not fit. By doing this you have made a great many assumptions about my beliefs and accused me of many wrongs. I believe the word of God literally but I also believe it does not contain all there is to know, just enough for us to get from wherever we are to God. Then He can show us much more and that more will never contradict the written word of God. We are physical and we are spiritual beings in Christ. I hope we can reconcile without insults.
 
What I do not understand is why the attacks on me personally? I don't know what Calvinists believes to be able to quote them. I also do not listen to many "preachers" and I can honestly say I've never listened to any of Copeland's sermons. So the thoughts you have toward me are expressed as only you linking me with someone else. I've never said God has a crystal ball, only you have. I've only said, over and over, that God knows all. Nothing more. And you attack me with a venom I've never witness before.

Your first post about this in 139
Like it or not, you have a problem.

That was you first response to me here concerning this topic, and disrespect. It's best to listen even if you don't understand and ask questions. You don't come in assuming you know more than anyone else.

I don't post anything, unless I can back it up with all kinds of scriptures. NEVER. I cover all my bases and have heard every single argument before getting into topics that rub religion the wrong way. I just don't post without knowing what scripture someone else will mention. That is why I responded harshly. Best to just ask, and not say I have a issue.

You also have to understand Doctrines Against God that make him out to be Evil and unfeeling. You said you don't fully get Calvinism so that is fine.

Our Father is not Evil, or unfeeling. His Word shows that he is love and a Awesome and powerful God.

There are 2 Major doctrines that are opposite each other but each attempt to keep the Sovereignty of God.

Election (Calvinism)
Foreknowledge (Arminism)

Calvinism (Election)
Most here do not subscribe to Calvinism. It's a doctrine that God does not have foreknowledge because God is in control of everything and causes everything. So it's not that God see's the future, He makes the future for all people concerning all things. God picks how gets saved and who does not get saved. God picks who gets healed and not get healed.

Arminism (Foreknowledge)
This Doctrine gives man free will, but God knows what choices each man will make and God already knows the outcome of each choice. Most believe a form of this Doctrine on this Forum. God knows our childhood to our end, though we get free will and choice. God lives outside of time is an expression used by Arminist.


Monolinism:
A strange doctrine, but God knows all the alternate realities of each mans choice, allows man free choice unless one of those alternate realities is not something He wants. God then stops those alternate realities that are not part of his Grand plan.

God knowing all doesn't mean He's not in control, nor does it mean He's not giving us a choice. It means He knows all. We put rules on our children because we want to protect them, they having not enough understanding to protect themselves. Many a parent has to allow their child to suffer the consequences of their own making in the hopes they will see the truth and repent of their independence. To trust us because we love them. Because we know what'll happen, based on our own experiences, doesn't mean we can't give our children choice. God is no different. Our free will makes our obedience all the more sweeter to God. God is a Gentleman and will not force His will on us. If God wanted blind obedience, then He would have made toy robots. But we are made in His image. We have the same creative imaginative power He does towards those things around us. He never intended for us to fly, but we do because He gave us that power to imagine. He even said that nothing will stop us (Genesis 11:6). With great power comes great responsibility and we can't handle that so God broke our means of communication. Today we are seeing prophecy (Daniel 12:4) being fulfilled right before our eyes and most don't even realize it. We are following in the steps of the days of Noah by messing with genes.

I agree with all this but one part.

We are like God because He made us Children, and we are on his level so he can fellowship with those on his level. I understand that. He made us like Him, Angels are just created servants and God wants real children.

HOWEVER:
Though nothing will stop us, something does........... we have a life span...... We have judgement. We don't get to hang out as Ghost.
It could be why we are not allowed to run around as Ghost in spirit form, but judged.

Peter said.............. (Paraphrased) I have heard the voice of God on high, seen the Miracles, have the plan for me. Yet we have a more sure Word of Prophecy.

That means, despite each plan and race God laid out for each man, the Word of God is not conditional. It will happen just like God spake.

For some odd reason, there is NO scripture that God says he knows what each of us will be doing 5 years from now unless we stay on our pre-set race and plan. We get off the path, and we get into things God never planned or intended.

To say God knew Adam would fail (which is what started this topic) would contradict many scriptures and means God placed Adam in the Garden with knowledge of failure. At that point Adam never had a choice. God would have placed Adam in the Garden already planing and knowing Adam would fail.

That is election (Calvinism)

What we can connect scripture to is to Satan. Read this. I can only believe what I have scripture for and compare.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; ........................... Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
(Eze 28:13-15)

Only 3 had been in that Garden. Adam, Eve and Mr. Devil.

God connects Satan being in the Garden with finding iniquity in him. (This throws out my idea Satan blew it long before Adam, but I have no scripture to prove that anyway)

God did not say he knew ahead of time, or even created Satan to fail (Election V.S Foreknowledge) God said He FOUND.
Found it in the Garden when Satan messed with God's man Adam.

God creates Evil, but He never planed for it to end up evil.

And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
(Gen 3:14-15)

Satan put the nail in his own coffin right here. Because you have done this, you art Cursed. Jesus is also now in the plan to have to die for Mankind.

Jesus came to undo what Satan did with Adam. This is what God is telling Satan in the Garden. Death started from Adam........

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
(Heb 2:14)

1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.


I am not saying I understand everything, but I do have scriptures to compare. God never planed Adam to fall anymore than God knew or planned Satan to blow it. God found iniquity in Satan.

God is never at fault, it's his creation he gave a free will to, they blow it. It all ends the same in the end though. We win.
 
ehmmm, when are they going to pull the plug on this foolishness, it doesn't follow the rules or the Statement of Faith we all agreed to, and it's certainly not bringing glory to our Lord Jesus Christ!
I've not had a chance to read each and every post, but my impression is that this thread has run its course.
 
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