Well, that's not what Paul said.
Wages Of Sin?
- Thread starter Phoneman777
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Well, that's not what Paul said.
The spirit is immortal?
Huntingteckel
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There's a very real consequence for our choices here. The wicked get to stand before God and be sent to death. Can you imagine? There could definitely be suffering before or during the sentence when it's being carried out as well.
Very interesting points, brethren. I agree with the Bible that Jesus was loosed from death, but notice that it doesn't say that he was loosed from eternal torment.
Many, many respected scholars define "Aionios" to be the adjective form of "Aion", which simply means DURATION: either undefined but NOT endless, or undefined BECAUSE endless." "Aionios" simply means "pertaining to Aion", like Christlike is to Christ, or Edwardian is to Edward. So, we have to decide from the context whether the "not endless" or "because endless" applies. We can't impose "because endless" on hell fire simply b/c that's what we've always heard. Scholars generally agree that whenever the word applies to the affairs of God, it means "eternal", but when it applies to the affairs of men, it means "all the days of life". So, yes the smoke ascends up "all the days of life", and the devil and his followers are tormented day and night "all the days of life", until such time as they are blotted out of existence.
I put no man on par with God, but thank goodness God "condescends to men of low estate." I simply say that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then that is what MUST be paid in order to satisfy the demands of broken law, whether we suffer it, or Jesus suffers it for us, that we may escape it. The fact that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient alone to pay the penalty does nothing to alter the required terms of satisfaction for the penalty of sin, and to contrast man's badness with His goodness in order to advance the idea that such goodness is the means by which Jesus is credited with having endured the penalty of eternal torment without actually enduring it is simply not in Scripture and not in the realm of reason, as well. No amount of mental gymnastics or Biblical speculation will change that. How can it be claimed that Jesus paid a debt equal to having been consigned to eternal suffering if He is not at this moment suffering eternally? If the penalty is eternal torment, then He did NOT pay that penalty.
The Rich Man and Lazarus is clearly a parable, regardless of the use of proper names. There are simply too many symbolic elements in it for it to be a literal story: Abraham's bosom, of which the Bible has nothing to say; Jesus' use of "hades" ("place of the dead" or "grave") as the location of the Rich Man, rather than the use of the fiery, burning, blazing "gehenna"; the dead men in possession of body parts though the Bible is clear that only in the resurrection at the end of days will the dead, whose bodies were buried at death, be reunited with a body when they are called forth from death by Jesus; human torches cannot hold conversations; human torches cannot be comforted with a single drop of water; dead are not able to converse with each other, etc. See my post on the Rich Man and Lazarus: Parable or Real Experience Part 1 and 2 for more detailed reasoning and also Jesus' interpretation of the parable.
Aionios does not mean duration at all, it means " perpetuity, ever, forever" . You must be thinking of the word "kosmos" which means duration of time. Any good Greek dictionary will tell you the complete opposite meaning of "Aionios" is "kosmos"
Sometimes knowing the complete opposite meaning of a word helps you understand what it does not mean.
Yep. The spirit of man is not subject to physical death. Spirit lives forever.
Don't forget the word of God teaches us that on Judgment Day the dead will have been raised from their graves---physically---and their bodies will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire, but their spirits will languish there forever.
Revelation 20:5b; 11-14 (NLT)
...(The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)
11 And I saw a great white throne and the one sitting on it. The earth and sky fled from his presence, but they found no place to hide. 12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God’s throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to what they had done, as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds. 14 Then death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
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You might want to tell Jesus he was not talking to a dead man when he was fellowshipping with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration.Very interesting points, brethren. I agree with the Bible that Jesus was loosed from death, but notice that it doesn't say that he was loosed from eternal torment.
Many, many respected scholars define "Aionios" to be the adjective form of "Aion", which simply means DURATION: either undefined but NOT endless, or undefined BECAUSE endless." "Aionios" simply means "pertaining to Aion", like Christlike is to Christ, or Edwardian is to Edward. So, we have to decide from the context whether the "not endless" or "because endless" applies. We can't impose "because endless" on hell fire simply b/c that's what we've always heard. Scholars generally agree that whenever the word applies to the affairs of God, it means "eternal", but when it applies to the affairs of men, it means "all the days of life". So, yes the smoke ascends up "all the days of life", and the devil and his followers are tormented day and night "all the days of life", until such time as they are blotted out of existence.
I put no man on par with God, but thank goodness God "condescends to men of low estate." I simply say that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then that is what MUST be paid in order to satisfy the demands of broken law, whether we suffer it, or Jesus suffers it for us, that we may escape it. The fact that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient alone to pay the penalty does nothing to alter the required terms of satisfaction for the penalty of sin, and to contrast man's badness with His goodness in order to advance the idea that such goodness is the means by which Jesus is credited with having endured the penalty of eternal torment without actually enduring it is simply not in Scripture and not in the realm of reason, as well. No amount of mental gymnastics or Biblical speculation will change that. How can it be claimed that Jesus paid a debt equal to having been consigned to eternal suffering if He is not at this moment suffering eternally? If the penalty is eternal torment, then He did NOT pay that penalty.
The Rich Man and Lazarus is clearly a parable, regardless of the use of proper names. There are simply too many symbolic elements in it for it to be a literal story: Abraham's bosom, of which the Bible has nothing to say; Jesus' use of "hades" ("place of the dead" or "grave") as the location of the Rich Man, rather than the use of the fiery, burning, blazing "gehenna"; the dead men in possession of body parts though the Bible is clear that only in the resurrection at the end of days will the dead, whose bodies were buried at death, be reunited with a body when they are called forth from death by Jesus; human torches cannot hold conversations; human torches cannot be comforted with a single drop of water; dead are not able to converse with each other, etc. See my post on the Rich Man and Lazarus: Parable or Real Experience Part 1 and 2 for more detailed reasoning and also Jesus' interpretation of the parable.
Php 2:6, Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; (NIV)
Php 2:7, rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
God can never change his nature. He can cloth himself in flesh which is what he did, and decide not to use his power for his own benefit, but still wrapped in flesh he was God. You strip away the flesh and what you have is the Glory of God.
Yes, I always liked the way the late Adrian Rodgers put it, "He was just as much a man as though He were not God at all, and He was as much God as though He were not man at all. He was the God-Man, and praise God, Jesus never sinned though He knew those temptations."
What is this?
Since the traditionalist view of the fate of the wicked has gotten MORE than it's fair share of exposure, I would suggest that we all take the time to view ASUK's two videos, which really do an excellent job of dealing with both the case for annihilation AND, perhaps more importantly, answers to traditionalists arguments for rejecting annihilation. There are some really eye-opening points brought up that I think traditionalists will have an extremely hard time explaining, especially when such points strike at the heart of each of their presumed support texts. I have found that the best way to affirm a belief is not to blindly (and stubbornly) hold to a position while stopping the ears and shutting the eyes, but to allow the position to stand the test of Biblical scrutiny, as is what Paul tells us in 1 Thess 5: "Despise not prophesyings, prove all things (according to the scrutiny of God's Word), hold fast to that which is good."
Oh great here we go again... "hell is just a bad place to visit"...Nonsense!
Absolutely ingenious! With your logic Jesus should be dead ..... but He is not. So clearly death is not 'death' or 'eternal torment'. Why don't we just look at the where the evidence points and then conclude, instead of getting stuck on our assumptions and a naive definition of God's idea of ''death''.
The fallen angels entered death when they sinned. No ''death'' or torment, just absence of God's presence and in their sin. Jesus sweat turned to blood in anticipation of sin coming upon Him. Not whips and torment! Not nailed to the cross / ''death''. Sin causes 'death'. Sin causes 'torment'. Hence, living in sin = living in death and torment. Hence forgiven from sin = life.
How in the universe do you see / judge annihilation as free will / part and parcel of a good God ????????
WHY are you proposing that our GOOD God treats us like the WW2 Russians and Germans did their prisoners?
You really don't see how sick your belief is?
Yes, the word can mean "undefined because endless", which it most certainly does in this case. Now, since the word can also mean "undefined but NOT endless", should that trump any instances such as Titus 1:2 where "...before the WORLD" (aionios) certainly does not mean "undefined because endless", but means "undefined, but NOT endless"?
Paul makes not mention of consequences here, only the pointlessness of living without the blessed hope of the resurrection. If a person's decision to follow Christ is based on the fear of consequences rather than love, appreciation for salvation, and desire to please Jesus, then that person is doomed. Jesus accepts the surrender motivated by love alone, and not by fear, for "perfect love casts out fear. The best way to determine if you are sitting in church in an attempt to obtain fire insurance is to consider how you would like to live if the need for fire insurance was suddenly unnecessary. And here lies the uncomfortable truth of the true condition of the heart of most Christians: that they selfishly place self preservation above loving, obeying, and pleasing God.
aiōnios :
- without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
- without beginning
- without end, never to cease, everlasting
This is ironic. How is annihilation not the maximum of things to fear?
Eternal punishment is hardly something to fear by a good God. Are the fallen angels running around ''shaking''? They surely know what is coming their way. Scripture is clear that devil is roaming like a lion. Not bouncing around like a nervous rabbit.
Again ironic. If you believe that not obeying, loving and pleasing God results in certain, eternal, non-existence.
Knowing that 1. God allows the evil to live on 2. Has to separate wolves and lambs for eternity and 3. Gives all their just reward according to their works Rom 2:6.....leaves us all in a truly free and neutral state when deciding to accept or reject Jesus.
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Rev 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Annihilation would not satisfy justice for sins against an infinite God. Jesus didn't suffer eternally because He is infinite God. Mathematically, it is like this:
http://dtjsoft.com/the-mathematics-of-heaven-or-hell/
http://dtjsoft.com/the-mathematics-of-heaven-or-hell/
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Both words "eternal" are the exact same Greek word which means "Eternal, perpetual, without end, never to cease, everlasting"
The word, "punishment" means, "kólasis; gen. koláseōs, fem. noun from kolázō (G2849), to punish. Punishment (Mat_25:46), torment (1Jn_4:18)
It,s opposite meaning is, "Ant.: áphesis (G859), forgiveness, dismissal, release; apolútrōsis (G629),
Both words "eternal" are the exact same Greek word which means "Eternal, perpetual, without end, never to cease, everlasting"
The word, "punishment" means, "kólasis; gen. koláseōs, fem. noun from kolázō (G2849), to punish. Punishment (Mat_25:46), torment (1Jn_4:18)
It,s opposite meaning is, "Ant.: áphesis (G859), forgiveness, dismissal, release; apolútrōsis (G629),
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Sorry, I made an error in my wording. The word "Komos", is really suppose to be the word "chronos" = duration of time, moment, a season, an interval.
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