God can not change himself, he emptied himself by choosing not to use his divine power as a means of comforting himself in his humanity or in his mission. He comforted others, but not himself.
Well, that's not what Paul said.
God can not change himself, he emptied himself by choosing not to use his divine power as a means of comforting himself in his humanity or in his mission. He comforted others, but not himself.
You misunderstand the ATONEMENT!
Jesus didn't suffer eternal torment because His payment was the shedding of his innocent blood! The penalty for sin is eternal death (NOT annihilation, either, because spirit is immortal), and the converse is a reward of eternal life for receiving His payment.
There's a very real consequence for our choices here. The wicked get to stand before God and be sent to death. Can you imagine? There could definitely be suffering before or during the sentence when it's being carried out as well.If we believe there is no consequences for our wrong choices, then lets just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we died, but that is OK because we will not feel it.
Very interesting points, brethren. I agree with the Bible that Jesus was loosed from death, but notice that it doesn't say that he was loosed from eternal torment.
Many, many respected scholars define "Aionios" to be the adjective form of "Aion", which simply means DURATION: either undefined but NOT endless, or undefined BECAUSE endless." "Aionios" simply means "pertaining to Aion", like Christlike is to Christ, or Edwardian is to Edward. So, we have to decide from the context whether the "not endless" or "because endless" applies. We can't impose "because endless" on hell fire simply b/c that's what we've always heard. Scholars generally agree that whenever the word applies to the affairs of God, it means "eternal", but when it applies to the affairs of men, it means "all the days of life". So, yes the smoke ascends up "all the days of life", and the devil and his followers are tormented day and night "all the days of life", until such time as they are blotted out of existence.
I put no man on par with God, but thank goodness God "condescends to men of low estate." I simply say that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then that is what MUST be paid in order to satisfy the demands of broken law, whether we suffer it, or Jesus suffers it for us, that we may escape it. The fact that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient alone to pay the penalty does nothing to alter the required terms of satisfaction for the penalty of sin, and to contrast man's badness with His goodness in order to advance the idea that such goodness is the means by which Jesus is credited with having endured the penalty of eternal torment without actually enduring it is simply not in Scripture and not in the realm of reason, as well. No amount of mental gymnastics or Biblical speculation will change that. How can it be claimed that Jesus paid a debt equal to having been consigned to eternal suffering if He is not at this moment suffering eternally? If the penalty is eternal torment, then He did NOT pay that penalty.
The Rich Man and Lazarus is clearly a parable, regardless of the use of proper names. There are simply too many symbolic elements in it for it to be a literal story: Abraham's bosom, of which the Bible has nothing to say; Jesus' use of "hades" ("place of the dead" or "grave") as the location of the Rich Man, rather than the use of the fiery, burning, blazing "gehenna"; the dead men in possession of body parts though the Bible is clear that only in the resurrection at the end of days will the dead, whose bodies were buried at death, be reunited with a body when they are called forth from death by Jesus; human torches cannot hold conversations; human torches cannot be comforted with a single drop of water; dead are not able to converse with each other, etc. See my post on the Rich Man and Lazarus: Parable or Real Experience Part 1 and 2 for more detailed reasoning and also Jesus' interpretation of the parable.
The spirit is immortal?
You might want to tell Jesus he was not talking to a dead man when he was fellowshipping with Moses and Elijah on the Mount of transfiguration.Very interesting points, brethren. I agree with the Bible that Jesus was loosed from death, but notice that it doesn't say that he was loosed from eternal torment.
Many, many respected scholars define "Aionios" to be the adjective form of "Aion", which simply means DURATION: either undefined but NOT endless, or undefined BECAUSE endless." "Aionios" simply means "pertaining to Aion", like Christlike is to Christ, or Edwardian is to Edward. So, we have to decide from the context whether the "not endless" or "because endless" applies. We can't impose "because endless" on hell fire simply b/c that's what we've always heard. Scholars generally agree that whenever the word applies to the affairs of God, it means "eternal", but when it applies to the affairs of men, it means "all the days of life". So, yes the smoke ascends up "all the days of life", and the devil and his followers are tormented day and night "all the days of life", until such time as they are blotted out of existence.
I put no man on par with God, but thank goodness God "condescends to men of low estate." I simply say that if the wages of sin is eternal torment, then that is what MUST be paid in order to satisfy the demands of broken law, whether we suffer it, or Jesus suffers it for us, that we may escape it. The fact that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient alone to pay the penalty does nothing to alter the required terms of satisfaction for the penalty of sin, and to contrast man's badness with His goodness in order to advance the idea that such goodness is the means by which Jesus is credited with having endured the penalty of eternal torment without actually enduring it is simply not in Scripture and not in the realm of reason, as well. No amount of mental gymnastics or Biblical speculation will change that. How can it be claimed that Jesus paid a debt equal to having been consigned to eternal suffering if He is not at this moment suffering eternally? If the penalty is eternal torment, then He did NOT pay that penalty.
The Rich Man and Lazarus is clearly a parable, regardless of the use of proper names. There are simply too many symbolic elements in it for it to be a literal story: Abraham's bosom, of which the Bible has nothing to say; Jesus' use of "hades" ("place of the dead" or "grave") as the location of the Rich Man, rather than the use of the fiery, burning, blazing "gehenna"; the dead men in possession of body parts though the Bible is clear that only in the resurrection at the end of days will the dead, whose bodies were buried at death, be reunited with a body when they are called forth from death by Jesus; human torches cannot hold conversations; human torches cannot be comforted with a single drop of water; dead are not able to converse with each other, etc. See my post on the Rich Man and Lazarus: Parable or Real Experience Part 1 and 2 for more detailed reasoning and also Jesus' interpretation of the parable.
Php 2:6, Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; (NIV)Well, that's not what Paul said.
Yes, I always liked the way the late Adrian Rodgers put it, "He was just as much a man as though He were not God at all, and He was as much God as though He were not man at all. He was the God-Man, and praise God, Jesus never sinned though He knew those temptations."Jesus was fully man, and he was fully God. He was a God man.
Also known as God in the flesh.
What is this?Very interesting points, brethren. I agree with the Bible that Jesus was loosed from death, but notice that it doesn't say that he was loosed from eternal torment.
The fact that Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient alone to pay the penalty does nothing to alter the required terms of satisfaction for the penalty of sin, and to contrast man's badness with His goodness in order to advance the idea that such goodness is the means by which Jesus is credited with having endured the penalty of eternal torment without actually enduring it is simply not in Scripture and not in the realm of reason, as well. No amount of mental gymnastics or Biblical speculation will change that. How can it be claimed that Jesus paid a debt equal to having been consigned to eternal suffering if He is not at this moment suffering eternally? If the penalty is eternal torment, then He did NOT pay that penalty.
Oh great here we go again... "hell is just a bad place to visit"...Nonsense!Since the traditionalist view of the fate of the wicked has gotten MORE than it's fair share of exposure, I would suggest that we all take the time to view ASUK's two videos, which really do an excellent job of dealing with both the case for annihilation AND, perhaps more importantly, answers to traditionalists arguments for rejecting annihilation. There are some really eye-opening points brought up that I think traditionalists will have an extremely hard time explaining, especially when such points strike at the heart of each of their presumed support texts. I have found that the best way to affirm a belief is not to blindly (and stubbornly) hold to a position while stopping the ears and shutting the eyes, but to allow the position to stand the test of Biblical scrutiny, as is what Paul tells us in 1 Thess 5: "Despise not prophesyings, prove all things (according to the scrutiny of God's Word), hold fast to that which is good."
Absolutely ingenious! With your logic Jesus should be dead ..... but He is not. So clearly death is not 'death' or 'eternal torment'. Why don't we just look at the where the evidence points and then conclude, instead of getting stuck on our assumptions and a naive definition of God's idea of ''death''.In my state, the penalty for driving w/o a seatbelt is $25.00.
Can $20 satisfy the demands of the law? What about $23? Or $24?
Ok, now that we're all on the same page..
QUESTION: If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, how can anything less than a payment of eternal torment by Jesus on behalf of us, in order that we might go free, satisfy the demands of the law?
In other words, if the wages of sin is a never ending Lake of Fire, wouldn't the only way that Jesus could take OUR place, take OUR punishment upon Himself, and pay OUR debt for sin is to go - instead of us - and remain in that never ending lake of fire?
If we lay aside preconceived notions for a moment and just be honest, then we have to admit that the answer is, "Yes, Jesus would have to be eternally tormented in our place to pay the penalty of Eternal Torment that we brought upon ourselves by committing sin."
But, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus did that. What does the Bible say is the penalty for sin? DEATH. Not eternal torment. DEATH. Which is by definition "the cessation of life." Annihilation. Extinction of being. Period. When Jesus paid our penalty of sin on the cross, He did not suffer Eternal Torment, He suffered DEATH.
Therefore, the penalty for sin cannot be Eternal Torment.
The Bible speaks of the destruction of Satan and sinners:
"All they that know thee (Satan) among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANYMORE." Ezekiel 28:19
"For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN." Obadiah 16
Satan and his followers are simply not going to "BE", or "EXIST" anymore. Praise God that He is not the sadistic, tyrant of cruelty beyond measure that Satan, the cruelest of all, has deceived so many into believing that God is. "If ye have seen Me, ye have seen the Father." - Jesus
Yes, the word can mean "undefined because endless", which it most certainly does in this case. Now, since the word can also mean "undefined but NOT endless", should that trump any instances such as Titus 1:2 where "...before the WORLD" (aionios) certainly does not mean "undefined because endless", but means "undefined, but NOT endless"?That same word αἰών 'aiōn' is used in many places, so does it also not mean endless or forever in Mat 6:13? "And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."
Paul makes not mention of consequences here, only the pointlessness of living without the blessed hope of the resurrection. If a person's decision to follow Christ is based on the fear of consequences rather than love, appreciation for salvation, and desire to please Jesus, then that person is doomed. Jesus accepts the surrender motivated by love alone, and not by fear, for "perfect love casts out fear. The best way to determine if you are sitting in church in an attempt to obtain fire insurance is to consider how you would like to live if the need for fire insurance was suddenly unnecessary. And here lies the uncomfortable truth of the true condition of the heart of most Christians: that they selfishly place self preservation above loving, obeying, and pleasing God.If we believe there is no consequences for our wrong choices, then lets just eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we died, but that is OK because we will not feel it.
aiōnios :Yes, the word can mean "undefined because endless", which it most certainly does in this case. Now, since the word can also mean "undefined but NOT endless", should that trump any instances such as Titus 1:2 where "...before the WORLD" (aionios) certainly does not mean "undefined because endless", but means "undefined, but NOT endless"?
This is ironic. How is annihilation not the maximum of things to fear?Paul makes not mention of consequences here, only the pointlessness of living without the blessed hope of the resurrection. If a person's decision to follow Christ is based on the fear of consequences rather than love, appreciation for salvation, and desire to please Jesus, then that person is doomed. Jesus accepts the surrender motivated by love alone, and not by fear, for "perfect love casts out fear. The best way to determine if you are sitting in church in an attempt to obtain fire insurance is to consider how you would like to live if the need for fire insurance was suddenly unnecessary.
Again ironic. If you believe that not obeying, loving and pleasing God results in certain, eternal, non-existence.And here lies the uncomfortable truth of the true condition of the heart of most Christians: that they selfishly place self preservation above loving, obeying, and pleasing God.
Rev 2:11In my state, the penalty for driving w/o a seatbelt is $25.00.
Can $20 satisfy the demands of the law? What about $23? Or $24?
Ok, now that we're all on the same page..
QUESTION: If the penalty for sin is eternal torment, how can anything less than a payment of eternal torment by Jesus on behalf of us, in order that we might go free, satisfy the demands of the law?
In other words, if the wages of sin is a never ending Lake of Fire, wouldn't the only way that Jesus could take OUR place, take OUR punishment upon Himself, and pay OUR debt for sin is to go - instead of us - and remain in that never ending lake of fire?
If we lay aside preconceived notions for a moment and just be honest, then we have to admit that the answer is, "Yes, Jesus would have to be eternally tormented in our place to pay the penalty of Eternal Torment that we brought upon ourselves by committing sin."
But, nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus did that. What does the Bible say is the penalty for sin? DEATH. Not eternal torment. DEATH. Which is by definition "the cessation of life." Annihilation. Extinction of being. Period. When Jesus paid our penalty of sin on the cross, He did not suffer Eternal Torment, He suffered DEATH.
Therefore, the penalty for sin cannot be Eternal Torment.
The Bible speaks of the destruction of Satan and sinners:
"All they that know thee (Satan) among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANYMORE." Ezekiel 28:19
"For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN." Obadiah 16
Satan and his followers are simply not going to "BE", or "EXIST" anymore. Praise God that He is not the sadistic, tyrant of cruelty beyond measure that Satan, the cruelest of all, has deceived so many into believing that God is. "If ye have seen Me, ye have seen the Father." - Jesus
Sorry, I made an error in my wording. The word "Komos", is really suppose to be the word "chronos" = duration of time, moment, a season, an interval.Aionios does not mean duration at all, it means " perpetuity, ever, forever" . You must be thinking of the word "kosmos" which means duration of time. Any good Greek dictionary will tell you the complete opposite meaning of "Aionios" is "kosmos"
Sometimes knowing the complete opposite meaning of a word helps you understand what it does not mean.