Was The Flood Story Copied From Babylonia?

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RiverJordan

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you might as well take issue .. because I have with those who call themselves scientist and are being deceitfully otherwise ..
Who?

as to the date of the flood .. the bible places it at about 2400 bce ..
Which makes it impossible on a number of fronts. Specific to my area of study, if all life on earth went through a genetic bottleneck that severe (2 or 7 individuals in the entire population), that recently, and all at the exact same time, it would easily show up in every genome we sequenced...every single one.

Yet we do not see that in any way shape or form....at all.
 
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the Great Pyramid may be found in sediments surrounding the base of the monument, in legends regarding watermarks on the stones halfway up its sides, and in salt incrustations found within. Silt sediments rising to fourteen feet around the base of the pyramid contain many seashells and fossils that have been radiocarbon-dated to be nearly twelve thousand years old. These sediments could have been deposited in such great quantities only by major sea flooding.

In support of this ancient flood scenario, mysterious legends and records tell of watermarks that were clearly visible on the limestone casing stones of the Great Pyramid before those stones were removed by the Arabs. These watermarks were halfway up the sides of the pyramid, or about 400 feet above the present level of the Nile River.

Further, when the Great Pyramid was first opened, incrustations of salt an inch thick were found inside. While much of this salt is known to be natural exudation from the stones of the pyramid, chemical analysis has shown that some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with salt from the sea. These salt incrustations, found at a height corresponding to the water level marks left on the exterior, are further evidence that at some time in the distant past the pyramid was submerged halfway up its height.

Salt deposits were found in the queens chamber, proving the pyramid itself has been under salt water, which makes it a pre-flood monument.

Josephus in his Antiquities of the Jews 1:2:3 tells the following story about Seth and his descendants:
"...they also were the inventors of that peculiar sort of wisdom which is concerned with the heavenly bodies, and their order. And that their inventions might not be lost before they were sufficiently known, upon Adam's prediction that the world was to be destroyed at one time by the force of fire, and at another time by the violence and quantity of water, they made two pillars, the one of brick, the other of stone: they inscribed their discoveries on them both, that in case the pillar of brick should be destroyed by the flood, the pillar of stone might remain, and exhibit those discoveries to mankind; and also inform them that there was another pillar of brick erected by them. Now this remains in the land of Siriad to this day."
(Siriad is an ancient name for Egypt)

In 1987 Dormion and Goidon found a concealed chamber in the wall of the horizontal passage. They drilled about a one inch hole in it, and found it filled with mineral enriched sand.
Ashraf Fouad writes,(Vancouver Sun, March 7, 1987) "Laboratory tests showed it came from another part of Egypt and was sifted and enriched with minerals. Because of the mixture of the soils and flood history of Giza, my hunch would go for 'washed in'.

The point: Although they might get lucky, I would not expect to find anything of significance in the concealed chamber itself. However, THE SOIL CAN TELL HISTORICAL TALES OF ITS OWN. Some should be given to a reputable geologist (Butzer is on site) and a good geological laboratory. They already know the complex has been flooded more than once.*
Fast moving water can carry minerals and soils from many distant sources. Clues may be had to these floods that we didn't expect, and answer questions that we have not known to ask...

The Grand Gallery has 7-step corbeled side walls. Some parts of the Grand Gallery walls contain salt deposits, but not as much as in the Mid Chamber. The length of the Grand Gallery is 1881.5985600+ PI, and its width just above the ramp stones is 82.41 PI. The Grand Gallery is 28 feet high by 1881-1/3 PI long.
http://www.crystalinks.com/gpschematics.html

http://www.biblefacts.org/myth/pyramid.html
http://www.science-frontiers.com/sf055/sf055p02.htm
http://egyptologist.org/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi?pg=prev&topic=8&page=8682

Some more quotes from Piazzi Smyth on salt in the Great Pyramid. One of these regarding a 'six inch' layer of salt was actually a bit misleading in isolation as he was only talking about a build up in one particular point that filled a detail so he could not measure it. He wasn't talking about a general layer six inches thick on the wall.

This is from his 'Life and Work at the Great Pyramid'.
"Further it is particularly noteworthy, that in going North to South in the Horizontal Passage, saline incrustations are observable on walls and floor, beginning at about 150 to 200 distance from the North end, and increasing in amount further South until at last both roof, walls, and floor are covered with a coating often near an inch thick, brown outside, white inside, and of almost stony hardness."

Queen's Chamber
"This substance must be regarded as a modern exudation of the stone, for some letters scratched on the North Wall, with date 1824, have now a raised outline in the salty matter around and upon them." (Smyth would have seen this in about 1860).

"Similar incrustations, too, are to be seen on the Horizontal part of the entrance passage and walls of the sepulchral chamber of the Second pyramid. That the salt is almost entirely common salt, or chloride of sodium, Dr Wallace's recent analysis confirms. As well as by my own late finding that the recent cut and polished specimens of the Great Pyramid casing stones, after being put away for a few months in a closet are quite salt to the tongue.
But that does not explain off itself why there should be 12 times as much salt found in the construction of the stone forming the lining of the Queen's Chamber as in any other part of the Pyramid or Pyramid Hill yet examined."

I also note that Zahi Hawass said that the Third Pyramid was closed for a period so that "salt could be cleaned off the walls". So that's salt in all three pyramids.

http://egyptologist.org/discus/messages/8/8682.html?1059446596

One of the books of Hermes describes certain of the pyramids as standing upon the sea-shore, "the waves of which dashed in powerless fury against its base." This implies that the geographical features of the country have been changed, and may indicate that we must accord to [the pyramids] . . . an origin antedating the upheaval of the

Sahara and other deserts.
It is food for thought that salt encrustation was discovered in the Queen's Chamber when it was first opened:
One of the greatest mysteries of this chamber has been the salt encrustation on the walls. It was up to one-half-inch thick in places, and Petrie took it into account when he made measurements of the chamber. The salt also was found along the Horizontal Passage and in the lower portion of the Grand Gallery. How did salt come to build up on the walls?
Those who have seen some significance in the presence of the salt have speculated that it could have been deposited on the walls as the water of the biblical Great Flood receded.

At least some of the salt may have been exuded from the limestone itself, because limestone is a rock consisting mainly of calcium carbonate, often composed of the organic remains of sea animals. Still, some of the salt has a mineral content consistent with sea salt. And there is more evidence for seawater surrounding the pyramids
If seawater once reached the level of the Queen's Chamber of the Great Pyramid, there must have been a considerable rise in sea level and, if they had been built, the valley and mortuary temples of the three pyramids as well as the Sphinx would have been under water. These temples are not closed structures and, had they been inundated, it is likely that rainfall or Nile flooding would have since washed away any salt encrustations. Furthermore:

The Sahara and its deserts in the northern part of Africa were once seas can be concluded from the salt plains in the Western Desert of Egypt.
 
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Which makes it impossible on a number of fronts. Specific to my area of study, if all life on earth went through a genetic bottleneck that severe (2 or 7 individuals in the entire population), that recently, and all at the exact same time, it would easily show up in every genome we sequenced...every single one.

Yet we do not see that in any way shape or form....at all.
look harder .. there were 8 people ..
3 sons and 3 wives ..
and their wives would not have been proto-semetic ..
 
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sea shells are found on every major mountain range in world and the shells themselves do not reflect an ancient age ..
 
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Searching for Ancient SeashellsIn The Desert

In the desert areas south of the Anza Borrego State Park lie still other geologic formations rich in fossils, for instance the Imperial Formation in the Fish Creek and Coyote Mountains. Just outside the village of Ocotillo, Fossil Canyon’s sandstone and mudstone walls reveal veins of white shell fossils and pieces of coral. What’s unique about this formation is that the coral is of a variety that is found in the Atlantic, rather than the Pacific, Ocean.

so we found seashells in California, but seashells in South Dakota? Kansas? On mountaintops in western Texas? Fossilized seashells found in these states reveal clues to the ancient Western Interior Seaway, which once split North America. It covered much of the western interior of the continent. It stretched from the Artic southward to the Gulf of Mexico and from central Utah eastward to the western Appalachians.

Exposures occur in Canada and in many U. S. states, including South Dakota, Colorado, Nebraska, Minnesota, New Mexico and Wyoming.

A different type of sea bottom remnant is the Smoky Hill Chalk, a deposit more than 600 feet thick, located in western Kansas. This sediment layer is near the center of the Western Interior Sea.

The chalk preserved many fossils including giant clamshells, which reached sizes of four feet or more in diameter. The clam’s giant size suggests a large gill area, an adaptation for life in murky, oxygen-poor bottom waters. Schools of small fish took shelter within the shells of the giant clams. Some clamshell fossils contain up to a hundred fish fossils inside. Other treasures found in the chalk include pearls of the great clam.

The Capitan Reef, a 400-mile long north-south trending reef that crosses the border between southern New Mexico and western Texas, is one of the premier fossil reefs of the world. Many exposures of this massive reef appear on mountaintops, thousands of feet above today’s sea level. Other sections remain underground. A spectacular piece of the reef is a formation called El Capitan, which is located in the Guadalupe Mountains National Park, near the eastern edge of the Chihuahuan Desert. This 8000-foot-high peak towers above the surrounding desert landscape.

El Capitan is a chunk of the limestone reef that rose during the mountain building of the Guadalupe Mountains.

Weather has eroded much of the surrounding sandstone. Because of the limestone’s greater resistance to erosion, the towering cliff remains, revealing its trove of seashells. We’ve found seashells from shore to shore, on mountaintops and places in between. Chances are, you have seashell fossils in geologic formations in your home state. Be sure to check local regulations about fossil collecting, which is often prohibited. Take a camera and shoot plenty of photos but leave the fossils behind for future generations.

http://www.desertusa.com/mag06/may/shells.html
 

Glomung

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There are a host of issues with the flood story
1. there is not enough water on the planet, not nearly 1/10 enough
2. most plant life saturated for 40 days plus would be dead, same for seeds, entire classes of plant life would have been wiped out permanently
3. as with above, land areas wasted by the flood would have still been wastelands for centuries
4. for most animal species 2 individuals is not a breeding population, examples being carrier pigeons and the carolina parakeet
5. after release the carnivores would have wiped out herbivore species at a rate exceeding a species a week, then would have starved themselves
6. Egypt and it's population existed before the flood, and after the flood
7. the list of cultures that did not notice the flood inlcude the Indus valley civilization, Xia dynasty in china, Mesopotamia,
Northwest American Indians (other cultures are either younger or did not keep good records)
8. you could not possibly get the genetic diversity you see in humans with a population of 8
9. including subspecies, there are more than 10,000,000 species and subspecies of animal, you could not fit that in the battleship Missouri
 
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Giant SeaShells On 'Top' of ..
Peru's Andes Mountain Range

http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/jeck/images/fig1.jpg
Arturo Vildozola above

http://www.manandmollusc.net/links_index_files/p12.jpg
Enrique Raul Pando Castro above (photo from AP/Wide World Photos).

Marine Fossils on 'top' of the Andes Mountains. More than 500 giant fossilized oysters were found 3000 meters (about 2 miles) above sea level in Peru in 2001 by Arturo Vildozola, palaeontologist with the Andean Society of Paleontology.
Now, to the ancients, fish and/or seashell fossils up in the hills and mountains naturally implied that water levels at some time in the past had to be that high. How else would those seashells get up there? ...It is understandable that peoples had no other conclusion to draw than that a deep flood, one like no other in their experience, must have put those seashells way up there. They did not know about mountain building and the geological processes that can raise fossil-bearing, sedimentary rock strata to great heights. In their minds, the mountains and hills had always been
there, just as they saw them, from the beginning of time. The mountains never changed over their lifetime or even over generations. They had no way of knowing about... the 'geological processes' that we know about today. excerpts from http://antiquity.ac.uk/ProjGall/jeck/index.html

*Since ancient harbors have also been discovered atop this same mountain range, it appears that 'geological processes' occurred suddenly, as had happened in many other civilizations and areas of the world that were formerly at, or near sea-level, and that are now hundreds to thousands of thousands of feet 'above' it, or hundreds to thousands of thousands feet below sea level. See article right below for a small sampling:
 

Glomung

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Your trying to use 150 million year old fossils to support the flood story? Be serious.
The US once had an inland sea, millions of years ago.
Things have changed since then, they call it plate tectonics, the crust is on the move.
 
Nov 23, 2013
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There are a host of issues with the flood story
1. there is not enough water on the planet, not nearly 1/10 enough

sure there is .. you are just assuming the earth looked the same ..
LAKE TITICACA - PACIFIC, and ASIAN SEAPORTS ..
WERE THRUST SUDDENLY 12,000 FEET ABOVE SEA LEVEL.
Titicaca. At 12,000 feet altitude, it is the highest navigable lake in the world.
But did you know that only 4,000 years ago Titicaca was on sea level?


During the earthquake which occurred off the northern tip of Sumatra on December 26, 2004, the sea bottom in the Straits of Malacca uplifted almost 4,000 in only about 3 minutes.
The US-based National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency, which analyses spy satellite imagery and produces maps and charts for the Defense Department, was reported to have received information that one area of the Straits of Malacca, which separates Malaysia from the Indonesian island of Sumatra had its depth cut from 4,060 feet to 105 feet.
In another affected area, a merchant marine ship logged that the depth was cut from 3,855 feet to just 92 feet. (Star newspaper, Kuala Lumpur, January. 13, 2005, quoting a report in the shipping journal Portsworld)
The US Navy reportedly sent two ships to re-chart the waters. Sonar images from British navy ship HMS Scott showed the massive uplift of a large area 10 kilometers wide and up to 1.5 kilometers high (4,800 feet plus)...

http://dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/Atlantis_Mysteries/message/4116


2. most plant life saturated for 40 days plus would be dead, same for seeds, entire classes of plant life would have been wiped out permanently

I disagree ..
The Bible indicates that as the Flood waters receded, plants had already started regrowing; evidenced by the dove that returned with an olive leaf (Genesis 8:10–11). This happened at approximately Day 278 of the Flood event; 128 days after the Ark came to rest on one of the mountains of Ararat; giving plenty of time for plants to start taking root and regrow. Howe discovered that even after 140 days of soaking, the seeds of wild flowering plant types were still viable enough to germinate.


3. as with above, land areas wasted by the flood would have still been wastelands for centuries

not true .. the Sahara and Salt flats and a few others are .. but the rest the opposite would be true .. most archeologist can attest to the rich silt deposits all over the world ..

4. for most animal species 2 individuals is not a breeding population, examples being carrier pigeons and the carolina parakeet

Read your bible again ..

Gen 7:2 "You shall take with you of every clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female;
Gen 7:3 also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth.

that would be 14 and 4 ..


5. after release the carnivores would have wiped out herbivore species at a rate exceeding a species a week, then would have starved themselves

says who ???

6. Egypt and it's population existed before the flood, and after the flood

you never heard of re-population ???

7. the list of cultures that did not notice the flood inlcude the Indus valley civilization, Xia dynasty in china, Mesopotamia,
Northwest American Indians (other cultures are either younger or did not keep good records)

that is blatantly false ..

8. you could not possibly get the genetic diversity you see in humans with a population of 8

that is blatantly false ..

9. including subspecies, there are more than 10,000,000 species and subspecies of animal, you could not fit that in the battleship Missouri

you wouldn't need to ..
 

RiverJordan

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Ixoye,

First, there's no need to spam the thread with copied articles in rapid succession. We have plenty of time to go through things one at a time.

Let's start with your first claim, that the pyramids of Egypt show signs of Noah's flood.

Your first link "crystallinks" contradicts your post. It includes things like, "At completion, the Great Pyramid was surfaced by white 'casing stones' - slant-faced, but flat-topped, blocks of highly polished white limestone. Visibly all that remains is the underlying step-pyramid core structure seen today. In AD 1301, a massive earthquake loosened many of the outer casing stones, which were then carted away by Bahri Sultan An-Nasir Nasir-ad-Din al-Hasan in 1356 in order to build mosques and fortresses in nearby Cairo."

So the missing outer stones aren't a result of flooding, but an earthquake and subsequent looting, the results of which are still seen today.

Your post also claims, "These watermarks were halfway up the sides of the pyramid, or about 400 feet above the present level of the Nile River."

If those are actually watermarks from Noah's flood, then it couldn't have been a global flood. The Nile in that area is right at sea level, so 400 feet above that isn't even enough to flood the immediate area, let alone the entire earth (CLICK HERE).

The next claim is that, "Silt sediments rising to fourteen feet around the base of the pyramid contain many seashells and fossils that have been radiocarbon-dated to be nearly twelve thousand years old." That doesn't even make sense, given that you've claimed the flood occurred ~4,400 years ago. Further, the same radiocarbon dating shows an unbroken Egyptian history from ~3500 BC to the present. Surely if they were all killed in the flood there would be a significant break in that history, followed by a new non-Egyptian history?

I'll let you address these questions, plus the one I raised earlier about the lack of a universal genetic bottleneck in today's organisms. Then we can move on to your other material.
 
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Read this today...

Noah's Ark: the facts behind the Flood


Basically, in 1985 this guy comes across a newly-found Babylonian tablet. As he starts to translate it, he realizes it is related to the Babylonian flood story contained within the Epic of Gilgamesh.


So it's definitely Babylonian and predates Genesis.


So the Babylonian flood story, which predates Genesis, includes animals being taken aboard "two by two".

IMO, this is further evidence that when the Israelites were captive in Babylon, they picked up this flood story, tweaked it a bit over time to fit their own culture, and it ended up being the story of Noah and the flood in Genesis.

I'm curious to see what other interpretations of this new information are.
and:
I understand that's what you believe, but it just doesn't line up with the facts God has given us.
Simply put, Jesus 'twould seem believed in the Genesis flood and that is good enough for me and it should be good enough for any disciple of Christ.
Matt 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Matt 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
So is Jesus teaching a truth based on a Babylonian fairytale or is He speaking of personal knowledge?
Or is Jesus building His own fable on the foundations of an older Babylonian one?
It is indeed reasonable as has been pointed out that each culture would have a flood story given that all cultures are descended from the family of Noah. That Tthe Babylonians 'might' have written there stuff before Genesis was written means ziltch.
The Chinese are generally credited with the discovery of gunpowder long before western civilization, but.............our pyrotechnical skills have far outstripped those of the Chinese.
Christians believe in the divine inspiration of Scripture and it would not or it should not be surprising that a later writing that is inspired by God would correct the errors contained in earlier uninspired writings.
River you mention these Christian Geologists who reluctantly conceded that there was no global flood.
Well Ixoye, there's a reason European geologists of the 18th and early 19th centuries ended up concluding that there was no global flood as told in Genesis. Remember, all of these scientists were Christians, many of them devoutly so. But as Europeans began digging, mining, and traveling, the geologists had no choice but to conclude that there was no flood. If you read their writings, it was extremely painful for many of them. They didn't want to come to that conclusion, but the facts on the ground they were seeing were unmistakable.
Can you provided clear unassailable proof? Or are you just taking someone else's word for it? Do we have available online copies of their original autographs confessing such findings and conclusions along with their confessions of faith in Jesus as the Christ of God?
 
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Your trying to use 150 million year old fossils to support the flood story? Be serious.
The US once had an inland sea, millions of years ago.
Things have changed since then, they call it plate tectonics, the crust is on the move.
junk science .. be serious ..
 
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Let's start with your first claim, that the pyramids of Egypt show signs of Noah's flood.

Your first link "crystallinks" contradicts your post. It includes things like, "At completion, the Great Pyramid was surfaced by white 'casing stones' - slant-faced, but flat-topped, blocks of highly polished white limestone. Visibly all that remains is the underlying step-pyramid core structure seen today. In AD 1301, a massive earthquake loosened many of the outer casing stones, which were then carted away by Bahri Sultan An-Nasir Nasir-ad-Din al-Hasan in 1356 in order to build mosques and fortresses in nearby Cairo."

So the missing outer stones aren't a result of flooding, but an earthquake and subsequent looting, the results of which are still seen today.

I never said they were .. the sea salt was the issue ..

Your post also claims, "These watermarks were halfway up the sides of the pyramid, or about 400 feet above the present level of the Nile River."

If those are actually watermarks from Noah's flood, then it couldn't have been a global flood. The Nile in that area is right at sea level, so 400 feet above that isn't even enough to flood the immediate area, let alone the entire earth (CLICK HERE).

and you think the world looks the same post flood as it did prior ..
elevations above and below sea level were created ..


The next claim is that, "Silt sediments rising to fourteen feet around the base of the pyramid contain many seashells and fossils that have been radiocarbon-dated to be nearly twelve thousand years old." That doesn't even make sense, given that you've claimed the flood occurred ~4,400 years ago.

I can show MANY c14 dates that are way off .. because carbon also is the issue ..

Further, the same radiocarbon dating shows an unbroken Egyptian history from ~3500 BC to the present.

that's not true ..

Surely if they were all killed in the flood there would be a significant break in that history, followed by a new non-Egyptian history?

and there is ..

I'll let you address these questions, plus the one I raised earlier about the lack of a universal genetic bottleneck in today's organisms. Then we can move on to your other material.
 
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So you believe the OT authors were just robots used by God? IOW, God was being somewhat deceptive...."You know those books you thought were written by Moses and the rest? Heh, heh, heh....that was ME!!!"
"Moses remained there on the mountain with the LORD forty days and forty nights. In all that time he ate no bread and drank no water. And the LORD wrote the terms of the covenant--the Ten Commandments--on the stone tablets." Exodus 34:28

The prophets of old were inspired by the Spirit of God! They fellowshipped with God and God taught them. God did not possess them and force them to write - with their own free will they wrote of what God has revealed to them, for it was glorious! Look at Daniel, David, Jeremiah and so many more! Their books were inspired by visions from God and the works of God! They were led by the Spirit - just as we who are under the New Covenant are led by the Spirit also (Galatians 5:16). Besides, do a search in an online bible for "And the Lord said to me..." You will see that the often in the Old Testament books that the Lord was talking to writer, and the writer wrote it down.

When we get into discussions like this - when we start questioning the sources of the Scripture - when we start assuming the stories and words came from men (whether that be the Israelites of old or their neighbors etc), we miss the point! "Trust in the Lord with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight." Proverbs 3:5-6

And the point of the Old and New Testament is to be a testimony of Christ and how in Him all the law is fulfilled. The bottom line of it all is that we come to know God through Jesus. "For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God." Romans 10:4. "You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me." John 5:39. "If you really believed Moses, you would believe me, because he wrote about me." John 5:46.

Christ is the point of the Old and New Testament. He IS the Old and New Testament - for He is the Word! (John 1). And He is True. "Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." John 14:6.

Let me ask you again: did the writers of the Bible (the Word) get their sources in God or from the ideas of men? Was God their inspiration or were the myths and ideas of men? It is a life and death issue.
 
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what does "kind" mean ..
an unclean GENUS (kind) could have a male of one SPECIES and a female of another specie and breed both species and varriants also would arise .. while a clean GENUS (kind) could be 3 pairs of the same 3 specie or a mix which could even be 7 different species represented in the Genus (kind)
lions & tigers or horses & donkeys are good examples .. when you breed the two together, they produce a liger & mule .. however, a male liger and mule are born sterile and cannot reproduce, meaning they are not a true specie since they cannot support even 1 generaton without reverting back to their original specie .. yet any type of lion with any type of lion, or any type of tiger with any type of tiger can ..
thus the term "kind" is defined by the restraints of reproduction between Genus ..

Here is an accepted scientific classification ..
KINGDOM: METAZOA
SUPERPHYLUM: DEUTEROSTOMIA
PHYLUM: CHORDATA
SUBPHYLUM: VERTEBRATA
CLASS: MAMMALIA
SUBCLASS: EUTHERIA (Placentals)
ORDER: PRIMATES
SUBORDER: HAPLORHINI
INFRAORDER: CATARRHINI
FAMILY: HOMINIDAE
GENUS: HOMO SAPIENS
SPECIES: SAPIENS
SUBSPECIES: ERECTUS

Some suggest that Noah would need to gather millions of different animals. Since there are millions of species of animals there would have been millions of animals on the ark .. the word "species" and the biblical word "kind" are often erroneously used interchangeably .. This is incorrect since they are not synonymous .. The biblical word "kind" denotes an organism that reproduces others like itself .. The species concept is much narrower, therefore many species can be included in a single biblical "kind" .. The word kind is probably closer to the modern taxonomic unit of "genus" and in some cases the larger taxonomic unit "family" ..
The Canidae (canine) family includes about 14 genera of dog like animals. These include the coyote, dog, wolf, jackal, etc. The ark did not have to contain the hundreds of species of canines that make up this group. In reality, these were all represented by a few "kind." These "kind" would then produce all the animals that make up the Canidae family. For example all of the hundreds of varieties of domestic pigeons that have all been produced originated from one species, the wild rock pigeon (Columbia livia).
 

RiverJordan

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Simply put, Jesus 'twould seem believed in the Genesis flood and that is good enough for me and it should be good enough for any disciple of Christ.
Matt 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
Mat 24:37 For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
Mat 24:38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark,
Matt 24:39 and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
So is Jesus teaching a truth based on a Babylonian fairytale or is He speaking of personal knowledge?
Does it matter? Do you think the validity of Christ's point (no one knows when the end times will happen) hinges on whether Noah's flood story was borrowed from Babylon?

It is indeed reasonable as has been pointed out that each culture would have a flood story given that all cultures are descended from the family of Noah.
Already been addressed.

That Tthe Babylonians 'might' have written there stuff before Genesis was written means ziltch.
The facts of the matter entirely fit with the conclusion of the Israelites borrowing the story from the Babylonians.

River you mention these Christian Geologists who reluctantly conceded that there was no global flood.

Can you provided clear unassailable proof? Or are you just taking someone else's word for it? Do we have available online copies of their original autographs confessing such findings and conclusions along with their confessions of faith in Jesus as the Christ of God?
They're generally available in decent libraries, and some are available online. Give me a bit and I'll see what I can dig up. FYI, I've read some of them myself.
 
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The following animals could have survived outside the ark:
25,000 species of fish
1,700 tunicates (mane chordates like sea squirts) found throughout the seas
600 echinoderms including star fish and sea urchins
107,000 mollusks such as mussels, clams and oysters
10,000 coelenterates like corals and sea anemones, jelly fish and hydroids
4,000 species of sponges
31,000 protozoan, the microscopic single-celled creatures.

Noah would not have to be concerned with the aquatic mammals such as the dolphins, whales, porpoises, sea lions, and walrus. There are also many aquatic reptiles that could survive outside of the ark. These would include many types of snakes, alligators, crocodiles, and sea turtles. There are almost a million species of arthropods that would survive the flood. Animals such as the following: shrimps, crabs, lobsters, and many other crustaceans. All of the insects could survive outside the ark. Mote than 35,000 species of worms and nematodes would also survive the flood.

In reality only a small percentage of the animals would have to be taken on board the ark. The vast majority of the animals that inhabit the earth either live in water and/or do not have "the breath of life."
 
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As far as fossils are concerned, they speak of death not vast geologic ages. Why??? Because we have only to look at recent recorded history.

Archaeologists dig deep to find ancient cities Yeah, even I can understand the principle of deposition covering things up,but..............I read recently of an English gardener digging up a 'dinosaur' bone in his garden. How deep did the guy dig???
Many fossils of supposedly vast ages are uncovered in relatively shallow layers...just about as shallow as some of the ancient cities, this suggests a similar age. Other fossils are down deep in sedimentary layers that assume really olden days deposition, but only if one scoffs at the flood. Study the recent Mount St. Helen's Volcano eruption and the extremely rapid formation of sedimentary layering that we have witnessed in our own time.
Flood a fable? nahhh believe the Bible and the one who inspired it.
 
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River Jordan .. if you do not believe the OT, then why do you believe the NT since it was Jesus' custom to read the Torah at the synagogues on the Sabbath ????

you think Jesus read it with a straight face and laughed to Himself ???
 
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River Jordan .. if you do not believe the OT, then why do you believe the NT .. since it was Jesus' custom to read the Torah at the synagogues on the Sabbath ???

you think Jesus read it with a straight face and laughed to Himself ???

please answer that ..

Luk 4:16 And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read.
 
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