Thanks. I knew that. I was just trying to "lighten" the moment.
When Bible Study Isn't
- Thread starter mistmann
- Start date
Thanks. I knew that. I was just trying to "lighten" the moment.
Absolutely correct.!!!
With out trying to insult you or in any way or to dis-respect you or your thoughts, BUT IMO it appears that you are going out of your way to find things point and argue over which should not be the case between believers who do not share the same beliefs as do you about like minded things we have identified as NOT being essential to salvation.
Is there any Scripture that states a man has to believe in the Trinity to be saved?
Is there any Scripture that states a man has to believe the Bible is infalible to be saved?
Now I totally agree that men should not stay spiritual babies but do as Hebrews 6:1 says......"GROW UP....MATURE.....LEARN".
But one must first come to Christ in faith then he will be able to grow in the knowledge of Christ.
Allow me to tell you something I learned a long time ago..........Christian maturity and growth can not be attained by our personal efforts as much as by our personal surrender to God who alone can accomplish the needed perfection we are in need of.
My dear friend.....I have personally lead many young men to Christ on the battlefield who did not know, understand or even have a concept of the Trinity. When they were asked if they would believe and accept the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for the payment of their sins....they said YES. They did not know or even need to know about the Trinity, or the Bible as inerrant, neither were they baptized, but because they believed upon the Lord Jesus as explained to them, they were saved and when they died on the battlefield they went to be with that same Jesus.
Quantrill
Inactive
I believe you have missed my point. The point had to do with the importance of Bible interpretation. I indicated that you don't have to believe in the Trinity, or the infallibillity of the Bible to be saved, yet they are part of our creeds and statements of faith. Thus the importance of a correct interpretation.
P.S. And I do go out of my way to debate, discuss, or argue over doctrinal matters. Why shouldn't we? How will we learn if we all agree? Seems if we all agree, then we just stop there.
Quantrill
You sound kinda snotty in black and white....but maybe that's just my perseption. Have a good evening.
My first sentence, "I totally agree. Arguing / debate rarely changes anyone's opinion," was sincere. The next part, "WAIT! Maybe that's the reason! They have opinions rather than scripture! Egads! I'm on to something," was intended to be humorous. The last part was a simple statement of fact. I've been at his for a long time ~ ~ ~ a little levity, along with some personal remarks, is intended to represent the sincerity of my posts.
an' dats duh nema dat tun.
p.s. I can't even spell smppyu oops abiiot oops .......... snotty. Fingers sometimes can't find the right row of kuys .... keys.
YES! and AMEN!
There is only one correct interpretation of scripture. It is provided by the Holy Spirit. It is impossible for there to be two correct interpretations of scripture. The reason we have so many denominations (thousands), egriegious misinterpretations, cults, is due to interpretation!
If we all utterly relied on the Holy Spirit, denominations would vanish. Alas, it appears that it won't happen in this life.
So sad.
(I can't find a weeping smiley)
The thing with understanding the Bible is that, being the word of the Lord ALL of it MUST be true. The Bible cannot be understood in a way that makes ANY of it to be false. That would declare the Lord to be a liar. Those passages I quoted can ONLY be true if Jesus and Jehovah are NOT the same person. Therefore no other part of the Bible can be understood to contradict itself and declare them to be the same person. The proper understanding of the Bible requires it be understood HOW these passages can be true AND Jesus and Jehovah still not be the same person. Part of that understanding is that the word "god" ("elohiym" in Hebrew) is both singular and plural (in the same way "man" can refer to a man or all of mankind) and is NOT exclusively used to refer to Jehovah but to godlike beings who are not flesh and blood and not of THIS world (earth) but are of a different nature altogether. Another part is that Jesus rules the universe FOR Jehovah and Jehovah is fully present in Him for Jesus does ONLY the will of the Father, not His own.
BUT you cannot claim Jesus and Jehovah are the same person without declaring many parts of the Bible to be untrue for they clearly and unequivocally declare them to be two seperate persons but fully united in heart, mind and will.
Remember this prayer of Jesus also:-
John 17:20 "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
We must not confuse perfect unity with being the same person.
Just a minor point of correction the Hebrew word "Adonay" or "Adonai" translated as "Lord" (not all uppercase) is not a title used exclusively of Jehovah but is a common title aknowledging superior authority or mastery. A servant would use it in respect of his master for instance. It is sometimes used of Jehovah out of reverence and respect for His authority over all INSTEAD of His name but not exclusively of Jehovah alone. Its meaning (Strong's) is:-
"1) my lord, lord
1a) of men
1b) of God
2) Lord-title, spoken in place of Yahweh in Jewish display of reverence
This is an observation for everybody, not any one particular person. I note that some have touched on just how much we need to know about what the Bible says so here are a couple of thoughts to mull over.
The first is that we are told it is important to grow not only in faith in Christ but also in KNOWLEDGE of Christ so that we are not deceived and not swayed by false teachings and false teachers and prophets.
Eph 4:13 " Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
How can we increase in knowledge and truth unless we seek to understand the knowledge and truth both Jesus and the LORD have provided to us for that very purpose?
The second is that if we love the Lord with all our hearts and minds will we not WANT to and YEARN to know all we can about His every word?
The Third is Jesus said:-
Mt 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Lu 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
EVERY word of God is food for the soul. Why would we choose to starve ourselves of understanding every word of God? A feast of knowledge has been laid out for us to allow us to grow healthy and strong in the Lord. Why would we want to stop at the entree?
Isn't it not a question of how much we HAVE to know and understand, but rather a measure of our love for the Lord to desire to know and understand as much as we can?
The first is that we are told it is important to grow not only in faith in Christ but also in KNOWLEDGE of Christ so that we are not deceived and not swayed by false teachings and false teachers and prophets.
Eph 4:13 " Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:"
How can we increase in knowledge and truth unless we seek to understand the knowledge and truth both Jesus and the LORD have provided to us for that very purpose?
The second is that if we love the Lord with all our hearts and minds will we not WANT to and YEARN to know all we can about His every word?
The Third is Jesus said:-
Mt 4:4 "But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Lu 4:4 "And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God."
EVERY word of God is food for the soul. Why would we choose to starve ourselves of understanding every word of God? A feast of knowledge has been laid out for us to allow us to grow healthy and strong in the Lord. Why would we want to stop at the entree?
Isn't it not a question of how much we HAVE to know and understand, but rather a measure of our love for the Lord to desire to know and understand as much as we can?
Food for thought:
In Genesis 3:22 we read Jehovah Elohim. Jesus comes from the Hebrew for Jehovah is Salvation. Jesus (Jehovah is Salvation) is referred to as without beginning and without end. In Isaiah 48:12 Jehovah says “I am He, the first and the last,” and also “other than me there is no God.” Jesus states that He is the first and the last in Revelation 22:23. You see it in Isaiah 41:4 as well. Compare Revelation 2:23 with Jeremiah 17:10. Also, Isaiah 45:22-23 and Philippians 2:10-11.
I’m not interested in cleaning up the mess <grin>, I’m just the server.
(......and I make a clear distinction between "knowledge" and "spiritual wisdom / insight" in my writings.)
In Genesis 3:22 we read Jehovah Elohim. Jesus comes from the Hebrew for Jehovah is Salvation. Jesus (Jehovah is Salvation) is referred to as without beginning and without end. In Isaiah 48:12 Jehovah says “I am He, the first and the last,” and also “other than me there is no God.” Jesus states that He is the first and the last in Revelation 22:23. You see it in Isaiah 41:4 as well. Compare Revelation 2:23 with Jeremiah 17:10. Also, Isaiah 45:22-23 and Philippians 2:10-11.
I’m not interested in cleaning up the mess <grin>, I’m just the server.
(......and I make a clear distinction between "knowledge" and "spiritual wisdom / insight" in my writings.)
Firstly, let me put on my Mod's hat and remind you of the second clause of this Forum's Statement of Faith:
2) There is only one God who reveals Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This is the statement to which all members agree when signing up.
Now, removing Mod's hat and speaking as a member, let me say I stand by my previous post, and am not going to labour the points. Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all equally God - they all have the "God DNA", if you like. However, there are distinctions within the Godhead between Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Over my 36 years as a Christian, I have frequently found myself doing one of two things: pointing out the Scriptures that emphasize the unity of the Godhead to those who deny Christ's divinity; and pointing out the Scriptures that emphasize the distinctions between Father and Son to those who say that Jesus is the same person as the Father. It seems incredible to me that so many people seem unable to put these two sets of Scriptures together and understand that the Bible says BOTH that there is One God (YHWH or Jehovah), in Whom are included Father Son and Spirit, AND that within that one Godhead there are distinctions between the three Persons.
Let me say it again: YHWH is the Name of God, and it belongs equally to Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus is as much YHWH as the Father is. However, Jesus is not the same Person as the Father - there is distinction of personalities within the Godhead.
I look at a rose bush out my window. Every cell in that rose bush has the same DNA. Yet it has leaves, flowers and stems, none of which are the same as each other, yet all of which are equally rose - and, more specifically, that particular rose. To me, that is an obvious and very simple picture of the Trinity.
blessings,
Lynn
When all is said and done, I believe picking out verses at random as though the Bible is just a collection of 'one liners', begs misunderstanding.
Rather than just quote Joel 3:32 for example, if we read around Joel, we find that 'The Lord' referred to there is in fact Jehovah. Now if we read around Acts 2:21 it becomes clear that Jesus is this same Lord spoken of in Joel.
Intellectually, I find that I can not see how Jesus could be both Jesus and Jehovah, but my faith declares it to be true. 'For the wisdom of this world (mine) is foolishness to God'. I'd rather be a worldly fool, yet know Jesus as both Lord and Christ.
I believe also that in seeking to understand scripture a good rule to apply is its own.......establish everything on the (written) testimony of two or three witnesses.
If I find a passage that has no witness support then I treat it with great caution.
I hope I have not just duplicated the work of others here, I find I don't have a lot of time these days and a thread that is 4 pages long, well..............
I guess I won't be earning many 'frequent flyer points' here.
blessings,
calvin
Rather than just quote Joel 3:32 for example, if we read around Joel, we find that 'The Lord' referred to there is in fact Jehovah. Now if we read around Acts 2:21 it becomes clear that Jesus is this same Lord spoken of in Joel.
Intellectually, I find that I can not see how Jesus could be both Jesus and Jehovah, but my faith declares it to be true. 'For the wisdom of this world (mine) is foolishness to God'. I'd rather be a worldly fool, yet know Jesus as both Lord and Christ.
I believe also that in seeking to understand scripture a good rule to apply is its own.......establish everything on the (written) testimony of two or three witnesses.
If I find a passage that has no witness support then I treat it with great caution.
I hope I have not just duplicated the work of others here, I find I don't have a lot of time these days and a thread that is 4 pages long, well..............
I guess I won't be earning many 'frequent flyer points' here.
blessings,
calvin
Lynn what you have said here is excellent and I am not in disagreement with it. Understand that I have never claimed that Jesus is not "God" (elohiym) or that He is not the Son of God, or that Jeohovah has not given all power and authority to Jesus over all things, or that ALL that Jesus does is not the will and word of Jehovah Himself, or that in dealing with Jesus we do not deal also with our Father, etc. (in case there are issues I've missed). ONLY that Jesus and Jehovah are not the same PERSON, the same physical (I use it in terms of being REAL rather than in terms of being flesh and blood) being. Something many do not pick up from the temptations of Christ is that Jesus HAD the ability to reject the Father and Satan was not treating Jesus as being Jehovah Himself but as somebody he could tempt AWAY from Jehovah.
The reason I pointed out this common error in the wider Christian community was as an example of how subtle it can be to be diverted away from understanding what the Lord has SAID by simply accepting what others have claimed He said. This false teaching of Jehovah and Jesus being the same person that we hear from Irenaeus was also rife in the early church years has led many further astray as false teachers must then invent even more "interpretations" to counter the many "contradictions" of scripture such a false teaching generates. From there it is a short step to declaring that it is a "mystery" only those in (church) authority can fully understand and you just have to believe and rely on THEIR word and teaching and not what you (being not "spiritual" enough) cannot understand by yourself from reading what the Lord Himself has said.
In short that people must rely on the word of this or that church authority, not the authority of the word of the Lord Himself.
What you have said here is what I mentioned previously. The only way that ALL these passages can properly be understood to be true is if we understand that the "godhead" is a matter of RELATIONSHIP in full unity and not one of being the same person.
Regards Misty
I note you said "Intellectually, I find that I can not see how Jesus could be both Jesus and Jehovah, but my faith declares it to be true. "
If you are meaning that Jesus and Jehovah are the same person the thing you have to understand is that the LORD does not declare it to be true, ONLY your "faith" (whatever you mean by that) declares it to be true. It is not just important that we have "faith" but that we have that faith in what the Lord HIMSELF has said, not what others have said contrary to it.
But if you mean that in dealing with Christ Jesus we deal with the Lord Himself then the "intellectual" answer to that lies in the RELATIONSHIP of total unity between the Lord and Jesus. The relationship of total unity between the Father and the Son.
But it is pertinant that you mention intellect for it is important that we do not dismiss intellect as not important to faith. It is vitally important to having faith in both Jesus and Jehovah. Remember what the most important commandment is:-
Mt 22:37 "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
Mr 12:30 "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment."
Lu 10:27 " And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself."
We cannot leave our intellect out of our faith in and love of God. We must UNDERSTAND with our minds also that in which we place our faith and trust. What the Lord asks of us is faith and trust with ALL eyes wide open, including the intellectual eye of our minds. The one who has both eyes wide open will not be led by those whose eyes are closed. Only the blind can be led by the blind.
But to believe and trust in the word of the Lord with our minds we must first KNOW what the Lord has actually said and then BELIEVE what it is the Lord has actually said.
Misty, I don't think you have really understood what I have said. Perhaps I have not presented it clearly enough.
As I read the Bible, and reconcile all the various verses relating to the relationship within the Godhead, I am forced to the conclusion:
1) There is only one God, YHWH (Jehovah)
2) Just as I am made up of body, soul and spirit, all of which are "Lynn", but which are not the same as each other, so YHWH is made up of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Father is YHWH, the Son is YHWH, and the Spirit is YHWH: but the Father is not the Son or the Spirit, the Son is not the Father or the Spirit, and the Spirit is not the Father or the Son.
So, Jesus is not the same "Person" as the Father, but He is YHWH, just as the Father and the Spirit are.
blessings,
Lynn
I missed this one earlier. According to Strongs from E-Sword,
H136
אדני
'ădônây
ad-o-noy'
An emphatic form of H113; the Lord (used as a proper name of God only): - (my) Lord.
In any case, verse 5 makes it very clear Who is being referred to:
Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD [YHWH] of hosts.
blessings,
Lynn
Firstly let me correct a mistake I made earlier when I ascribed to Irenaeus something I meant to ascribe to Ignatius (30-107AD), Bishop of Antioch. This was the quote I meant to refer to:-
But I must admit that I am somewhat confused now by what it is you are saying. You appear to be saying they are three seperate persons but are not really three seperate persons but three manifestations of the same person? I cannot find anywhere in the Bible where Jehovah is called "Jesus" (aka Joshua / Jeshua) or Jesus is called "Jehovah". And as far as I am aware the actual name of the Holy Spirit is never revealed. Remembering that the word we translate as "God" (elohiym) is not a name but a type of being and is not used in the Bible exclusively for Jehovah. (eg "Ye are Gods")
Jesus Himself does admit there is only ONE true God ... BUT ... that it is not HIM, but His Father. Jesus does not declare Himself to be the one true God and never claims equality with Him but subordination to Him . An obedient son who does the will and works of His Father in Heaven.
I cannot see anywhere in the Bible that supports what you are saying but many passages that are in contradiction to it.
I see in the word of the Lord three persons/beings who are always treated as three seperate persons/beings but working together as one in a relationship of total unity of heart mind and spirit. To declare otherwise would render certain parts of the Bible to be untrue in what it says (such as the one above)
I can see where this is going!!