Who Will Be The Two Witnesses?
- Thread starter Silk
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AlephBet
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If you read 1 Kings 17, you will see that Elijah takes the widow woman's Son at Zarephath (meaning refinery) up to his chamber, then restores his life. He then takes him back down the stairs to his mother's bosom. Here, Elijah is showing us what it means when there will be no more Dew or Rain in the land. Ultimately, this is baptism, or involution and evolution. Water puts out fire. Fire evaporates water. Be the water.
By Dew, he is referring to drops of water hitting the land, then what happens when the sun distills the water as it evaporates. Symbols are markers for other scriptures that lead the way to the final mystery. This mystery is then outlined for us in Isaiah 26:
But your dead will live, Lord;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead.
20 Go, my people, enter your rooms
and shut the doors behind you;
hide yourselves for a little while
until his wrath has passed by.
WITNESS 1) Elijah came as John the Baptist. He was baptizing, or bringing down to the Mother / Mater / Matrix for evolution (rising to new life). Jesus said, you must be born again. 1 Peter 3 then tells you that Baptism is the flood of Noah, or beasts in the water being cleansed. Matthew 3 then tells you that water puts out fire by bearing fruit. All of this was the witness of Elijah.
As for Moses, he is the witness of Christ. Jesus made proclamation to us all, while we were yet sinners. His witness was the same as that of Elijah.
1 Peter 3
19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Note his message. He made proclamation to the dead in the pit, then showed us that Baptism is the flood of Noah by symbolism. By this, we then review the story of Noah to see why the fire is next. Yahweh made the nation of Israel his own nation. In Genesis 9, Elohim (Father) promised the rainbow, or ALL nations. Shortly before making that promise, he also made another promise.
Genesis 9
6 “Whoever sheds human blood,
by humans shall their blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made mankind.
In Revelation, Jesus is said to be this: Was, IS and is to come. Someone else was said to be WAS, IS NOT, IS TO COME. Yahweh made Satan (Genesis 3). We must overcome Satan. To do this, the water puts out the coming fire. Yahweh was not mentioned in the entire New Testament by name (IS NOT). Satan was silenced by Yahweh in Zachariah 3, then by Jesus in the wilderness temptation.
Ultimately, the two witnesses are Moses (Israel) and Elijah (Gentiles / Baptism). They have always been the witnesses. The fire coming from the mouth is the sWord of God spoken. It is the flame protecting the tree of life. The tree of life is DNA / Solar Cycle and all mechanisms deriving from particle/wave and Consciousness (Spirit). WORD is written by the Aleph Bet (Father).
East and West are like Hebrew and Greek. Moses and Elijah are the same by function. Israel paid their tenth to the Priest through Abraham. Gentiles by baptism. How do we put out the fire?
Matthew 3
11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with[c] the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
Bear fruit in the waters of baptism. We are all (7 billion) here in the first resurrection to see the conclusion to the final generation (1948 - 2020). The next Jubilee is 2017. The last was the Six Day War (1967) and the one before that was 1917 (WWI). Before those, many others, including 67 revolt of Jerusalem.
Genesis 6
3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”
Grand Jubilee is 7X7+1 (50 years). 120 X 50 = 6000.
Adam to Abraham (Age of the Father) - 2000 years (2 Days).
Issac to Jesus (Age of the Son) - 2000 years (2 Days).
Mary to ??? (Age of the Spirit) - 2000 years (2 days).
How many are left as Man is born again? 1 Day of Rest, just as before in the days of Noah.
1000 years of rest, as Christ rules. By Christ, I mean Adam (humanity). We ARE the body of Christ, born again from the fires of tribulation. I get ahead of the topic, but who are the witnesses? Believers and Israel. Elijah and Moses.
Consider what one person like me can do with one forum. Imagine what one person like Elijah did with a scroll and a pen. Did one man make a witness to the Word? One Lone Voice Crying. It's all it takes if truth is the Word spoken by either a Jew or Gentile.
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I changed my vote a few pages ago to Elijah and Moses. My main concern was the "for man only to live once" scripture but I'm over that now
because both Christ and Elijah raised the dead. Most of what you say I can agree with but I am not getting the logic of 1Peter 3. Most talking heads are now admitting there is evidence of a global flood but are dating it to 12,000 yrs. ago. I don't know why, exactly "they" double it but 6,000 years makes more "spiritual" sense to me. (I have to thank Abdicate for making that more clear to me and his book, Chronology of Man). I am solidly in the camp of pre-trib rapture, having (finally) seen it in scripture. I believe Christ will be a real and visible, physical presence at the 2nd Coming and those "raptured" will be with Him. I guess I am not clear what your words are saying - the symbology.OK - I see what you mean
1Pe 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1Pe 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1Pe 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1Pe 3:9
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10
For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11
Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13
And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
1Pe 3:1
Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
1Pe 3:2
While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.
1Pe 3:3
Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;
1Pe 3:4
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
1Pe 3:5
For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
1Pe 3:6
Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
1Pe 3:7
Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
1Pe 3:8
Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:
1Pe 3:9
Not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that ye are thereunto called, that ye should inherit a blessing.
1Pe 3:10
For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
1Pe 3:11
Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.
1Pe 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.
1Pe 3:13
And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good?
1Pe 3:14
But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled;
1Pe 3:15
But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
1Pe 3:16
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
1Pe 3:17
For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
1Pe 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 3:22
Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
AlephBet
Inactive
Yes, but those sacrifices are in Heaven and not here. We are the copy below (bride), while the true self (Angel) is facing God above (Matthew 18:10). Hebrews 9:
23 It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter a sanctuary made with human hands that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God’s presence. 25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Each person lives once (copy). The soul will be born again into another person. Ultimately, we are asking, "Salvation from what?" The water / fire (fisher of men). If you look in the mirror, you see your image. You are aware that it is not you, but a copy. Genesis 1:27 clearly states that we are in God's image and we are HIS image. It is said two different ways. We are inside the image created as a copy of heavenly things. We are created by the Aleph Bet (Father) with Word (information links) with light cast on the information (John 1). What is this a description of scientifically speaking? A hologram. Matthew 18 is a clear description of quantum entanglement from the beginning of the chapter to the end. Loose and bind here, but it is loosed and bound in heaven. Lost sheep are never far from their shepherd.
Matthew 18
10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.
The little ones are the children of God below (Copy). The Angel is the true higher nature of each person above, waiting for consummation. Salvation restores the image. Eve was taken from Adam (image of God is both male and female).
Matthew 22
At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
This is the mystery of the two witnesses in parallel to Israel and the Gentiles. East and west making one new humanity.
In the search for the identity of the Two Witnesses, in order to conclude that they are literal men it is necessary to ignore (1) the link between Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 where God interprets the same symbolism John saw as "the Word of God", (2) that John calls them "Olive trees" and "Candlesticks" which are clearly not men, and (3) ignore Peter's safeguard against reaching private interpretations of prophecy by allowing the "holy men" to interpret what prophetic symbols mean (ie. speculating that "England" = Lion vs. Jeremiah's plain Babylon = Lion in Daniel).
It would also be necessary for God to remove the glorified body of anyone in heaven today so as to allow them to come back to die and them do the same thing all over again. "Olive trees" and Candlesticks are symbolic.
It is always funny to see people ignore Zech. 14 as you did when I said that the feet of Jesus will stand on the ground, therefore His 2nd coming is not "Horizontal" as you said. Interesting that now you want to link Zech. to Rev. when it fits your thinking.
I don't ignore Zechariah 14 or any other part of the Bible:
What you mistakenly call the "Rapture" is what the Bible says is the Second Coming of Jesus FOR His saints horizontally across the sky circling the globe from East to West as the lightning flashes across it as well and leaving behind an uninhabited, empty earth (see my thread "Life After People") which commences the thousand year reign of the saints with Jesus in heaven and Satan's thousand year prison sentence here on earth.
What you call the "Second Coming" is what the Bible says is the Millennium ending return of Jesus WITH His saints where the capital of the universe, the heavenly City of God is moved permanently here at the place where, according to Zechariah 14, Jesus' feet will split Olivet into a huge plain, the wicked are resurrected, judged, executed in the world-wide Lake of Fire which will annihilate them, and after which He will create a New Heaven and Earth where there will be no more death, suffering in flames, crying in burning, tormenting pain, sickness, etc. for every single one of the former things are passed away.
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That is for sure but I just hate to leave false teaching out there for others to read without a counter comment.
But you are probably right.
All we can do is speculate as scripture does not necessarily preclude 2 unknowns. I'm asking what biblical figure would most likely fit the bill according to scripture. At the very least, I expect most would agree that the two will be literal live people. To say such as candlestick and olive trees don't symbolize real men but symbols of symbols takes on a ludicrous sheen.
Response to the OP
Their identification is not revealed in scripture
However, we can know that they will be human, appear in Jerusalem, stand in the face of Satan's beast, bring judgments upon his kingdom, be killed by the beast, and will be resurrected by the Lord for all to see [Revelation 11]
Their identification is not revealed in scripture
However, we can know that they will be human, appear in Jerusalem, stand in the face of Satan's beast, bring judgments upon his kingdom, be killed by the beast, and will be resurrected by the Lord for all to see [Revelation 11]
Well said.
Prophecy is of no private interpretation. Our job is to convey this message not to push our ideas. We can discuss to help enlighten but as @Straightshot said, we cannot know by the scriptures. We can only know what is written in the word of God and the rest is just speculation, filling in the peices by putting a puzzle together without a photo to go by. The key is the message, not the messengers. Unless it's clearly stated in the scriptures, any identification comment is just as much hearsay as the other. Learning to unlearn false teaching requires the idea one might be wrong. Apologetics only works for those who recognize deep down inside that there's a chance what they believe could be wrong, otherwise you stoop to their level.
Remember this: before the NT, there were three places the Messiah could come from; Egypt, Nazareth and Bethlehem. All were surely fought over and over by the Jews. Today we have the answers they fought over, but it required the completion of the prophecy to show the whole picture. As the end gets closer the more we'll see. I was once adamant that Rome was involved in the end-time to the nth degree, and they still may be, but I know now, because of 9/11, that it is the Muslims not the Catholics we need to watch. Before 1948, many Christians fought that Israel would never exist again, yet here they are. Even though Israel is alive and well today, fulfilling prophecies left and right, there are still many who reject them as the chosen people. They reject Paul's warning to us, the grafted branches, yet they still believe what they want to believe. I've told you before, speak what you believe, if they have questions, answer them, but if they rebuff you, move on and leave them in their ignorance. Someone who is really hungry will always find the truth. The Holy Spirit is the only way to get that truth and He will never lie. One who listens to the Holy Spirit will always find what they're looking for.
For two years I wrestled with one date in the chronology according to the scriptures. Two years! It was either the end of my study or the scriptures were in error - which I did NOT believe. So I had to wait on the Lord. I read "father" in English and it just didn't jive with the rest of scriptures, but I couldn't find the error. The OT said one thing the NT said another - a genuine conflict. In the end I found out that in Greek "father" can be near (your actual father) or far - an ancestor. BAM! I had the truth. I only want the truth, not dogma. If the scriptures show Jesus was born 500 years ago, I want it, I don't care what dogma says. The more I dig into the word of God the more layers there are filled with wonderful gems. The devil doesn't want his plans revealed either so he will devise all kinds of "theories" about the end time. The devil wants us to make "Left Behind" the gospel so we don't see the truth. If we are so focused on the end times, we won't see today's needs.
Jesus says we're to watch and pray. That says two things, we'll learn as it goes along, and He'll answer our desires to know, but in His time. After all it is HIStory just waiting for time to catch up. After all everything is in deficit to God, even time!
Agreed .... we must stick to the scriptures and to depend upon the Lord's guidance in the process
It does take time and dedication on our part, but possible to be lead into all truth
There are so many ways broadcast today consisting of private interpretation producing nothing but confusion through the miss handling of the Lord's prophetic word .... a virtual zoo of chioces
Much damage has been done by those who have and do abuse the privilege of knowing His more sure word of prophecy .... and this condition is on a roll and propagated by those who seek proprietary interests
The student of Bible prophecy must be a Berean .... testing and re-testing in the light of scripture .... to study themselves approved for the purpose of reaching a high level of confidence in what one believes, and why they believe it .... and to be an effect witness for those who need to hear
It does take time and dedication on our part, but possible to be lead into all truth
There are so many ways broadcast today consisting of private interpretation producing nothing but confusion through the miss handling of the Lord's prophetic word .... a virtual zoo of chioces
Much damage has been done by those who have and do abuse the privilege of knowing His more sure word of prophecy .... and this condition is on a roll and propagated by those who seek proprietary interests
The student of Bible prophecy must be a Berean .... testing and re-testing in the light of scripture .... to study themselves approved for the purpose of reaching a high level of confidence in what one believes, and why they believe it .... and to be an effect witness for those who need to hear
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Not sure what the strike lines are in my post above .... I did not do this
I will see what I can do .... at any rate the post is still readable
From the beginning of the thread, I said it was all speculation. Not to argue doctrine but to see what the witnesses purpose and message (function) is and how that compares with biblical figures as described in scripture. I think? it will be 2 bible figures from the past but I am not cemented into that. I am simply curious and figured it was one topic where no one can get riled up against any position because scripture does not state or identify them. But it is like they just appear as leaders. As opposed to all the misleaders.