Who would like to join me?? in going through Revelations???

Since Bob has written alot of stuff and I dont disagree with any of it..
Heres a short summery of chapter one from me..
The revelation is From Jesus Christ Rev 1:1
We are blessed for reading this aloud and we are blessed for understanding it Rev 1:2-3
Rev 1:7 Is in quotation, so I am a little confused because it gos on to say Amen! so it seems to be a prayer?? or is it Jesus coming??
Rev 1:13 Someone "like the son of man??" hmm, with white hair...
Rev1:20
Im struggling with this one.. hope someone can explain..

Ok, thats whats got me slightly confused. lol the rest I am not to bad with...
 
Rev 1.7

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
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7 Behold, he cometh with clouds;

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
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Jesus is Water and we are like him.

Therefore we may say that the cloud he comes with is the church. Behold, he comes with the church


and every eye shall see him, Seeing is understanding. Everyone shall understand him.

and they also which pierced him: The spear represents the sins of the church. It is we who pierced him. Since it already says that all shall see him, this does not say the the church also will see him. It says that the church is with him and that all will understand Him and his bride.

and all kindreds of the earth all the tribes which are earthly or of the flesh as opposed to those which are spiritual. The church has been grafted in to being a spiritual tribe of Abraham.

shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. The word for wail also means to be cut down or cut off. Ro 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Behold, he comes with the church and everyone shall understand Him and the church. And all who live according to the flesh will die.

This implies that the nature of the church is as misunderstood as is the nature of Christ.
 
Rev 1:8

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
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8 I am Alpha and Omega,
the beginning and the ending,

This is a repetition so we may say I am the Alpha and Omega in heaven and on earth.

He is the author, initiator, the finisher, and the very purpose. Because of this, the apostle could say Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, This is a reference to the Trinity out of order as above. He who was, is in the midst of what is and what is to come. He is the focus of history.

the Almighty. He is God.
 
I wasn't going to get involved in this since there is so many opinions on it, but I'll say this. I take the Bible literally when possible and spiritually or figuratively when its obvious it can't be. So it would be a whole different interpretation of the Bible
 
Rev 1:9

9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
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9 ¶ I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation,
and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,

There are two things listed that John is: Brother and companion in tribulation, and two things where he is: Kingdom and the patience.

We may say that he is our brother in the kingdom and our companion in tribulation in the patience of Christ.

Ro 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Our tribulation is due to Christ's patience:
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

was in the isle that is called Patmos, John is setting the stage to share a type of conversion experience by drawing our attention to Noah's ark, Moses ark, and the ark of the covenant. Patmos means "my killing" . He could have said he was on Patmos, without drawing attention to the fact that it was an island. But the word for island is word play for ship since it shares the same root. He was on the ship of his death.

The ark is a symbol of the cross. The cross is not the end of the story, it is the beginning of life. It is the marriage which is a promise of fruitfulness. John, by walking in the spirit, saw a picture of Christ being painted in his own circumstances and is consciously sharing it with us. While he was in his ark, he had a type of conversion experience, not of salvation since that had been accomplished already, but of understanding. The result coming out of the ark is fruitfulness.

for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. The Word of God is Christ, how does his testimony differ? Testimony comes from the word martyr. He was there to die for Christ and intentionally draw a picture of Christ with his life. He is saying that he will be more fruitful in death than he was in life, as Christ was desolate in life and fruitful in resurrection.

Considering that every Christian knows John 3:16, we might very well say that more people have come to Christ through his writings than through his works before his death.
 
GodSpeaks said:
I wasn't going to get involved in this since there is so many opinions on it, but I'll say this. I take the Bible literally when possible and spiritually or figuratively when its obvious it can't be. So it would be a whole different interpretation of the Bible
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That is my basic rule for interpreting the literal as well. The method here admits that this is not the literal. The literal is problematic for the best exegetes which is why there are so many interpretations. This method intentionally uses the figures defined elswhere in the Bible to focus on Christ, with the assumption based in experience that Christ is the focus of all scripture.

I will not dispute a literal interpretation suggested to go along with what I am doing. I will ask what the basis is for applying certain images to historical figures and events, since all of that is usually pure speculation and/or wishful thinking. With this method, at least we can point to scripture to interpret scripture.

In this method, a future tribulation would be a mere shadow of Christ's tribulation pointing back to it, rather than the focus, similar to the OT shadows which pointed forward. The principle of prophetic recapitulation, sometimes makes it difficult to discern what is being prophesied and what is the shadow, so the rule is that it all speaks of Christ.
 
The thought occurred to me that the Daniel Prophecy was already fulfilled .. but Revelation has a whole new cast of characters ..
 
Michael Collum said:
err . you mean the Testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (rev 19:10) .. right?
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Yes.

The Spirit of prophecy is the "Walking in the Spirit" that we discussed in the Sensus Plenior thread. It is seeing the pictures of Christ being painted around you and intentionally walking in them and completing them. The prophets lived a sort of dinner theater as the message. It is the Testimony of Jesus since every one of them speaks of Him.

John sees the 'irony' of being on the ship of his death at the time of his death. Rather than chuckle at it, he uses it to paint a picture of Christ. The time of his death is a passing over from this world to the next as Noah went from one life to the next. It is the same imagery as Israel passing through the water out of Egypt and again into Jordan. He likely saw it as the Jordan passage.

So in the spirit of prophecy he testifies of Jesus in a mundane fact that he was on an island.
 
GodSpeaks said:
Bob
Are you saying the tribulation has already happened?
I believe Revelation and the tribulation are future
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Do you judge the method based on preconceived notions, or are you willing to consider the method for its own merits? In a sense, if you already know it as a fact, then there is no discussion, everything else is in error. What I propose is an experiment in discerning sensus plenior. I am hoping others will validate or falsify it.

I am saying that in this experiment, the primary fulfillment of everything is the cross. Everything else testifies of Christ and gives him glory. So there can be no greater tribulation than a Holy God placed in the hands of sinners, or for God himself to be split as the Father separates from the Son. Had Jesus' tribulation not been shortened, had he not been hurried to the cross because of the feast, and instead died in prison from his beatings... no flesh would be saved. That cannot be said of any other tribulation. Since it is an abomination to condemn a righteous man, the abomination that caused desolation was the kiss of Judas. The generation that would not pass away before all things were fulfilled is every generation that reads it.

This happens because we go from time to timeless eternity at death. So in time, it looks like he returns like a thief in the night when someone drops dead in the field or dies in their sleep. But to the person dying, they enter eternity and are immediately in the presence of all who died before and all who died after (since there is no time) and they have experienced the rapture. So there is a second coming when all men, not just those alive at the end of time, see him coming in the clouds. We experience it in that flash as we go from time to timelessness.

Whatever future tribulations we have are mere shadows pointing to Christ. The preterist thinks the shadow of the destruction of Jerusalem is the focus, it is not. Christ is. Some thought the holocaust was the tribulation... just a shadow to point us to Christ. Most think some future tribulation is the focus... the focus is never off Christ. The future tribulations all point to Christ.

If I err, I would rather err by looking at Christ than looking for an antiChrist. I would rather be prepared to die than to learn to fly.

So my participation in this thread is to show what the experiment produces, and let others criticize it within the bounds of it's claims. It certainly will not agree with literalist methods and so there is no sense in arguing about which is right. That would be as silly as arguing if the prophecy of the birth to a young woman was intended for it's time or of Christ. We nearly universally agree that it was for both.
 
Having said all that, that interpretation is based on applying the methods of sensus plenior to Matthew's gospel. It will be interesting to see what Revelation produces.
 
Rev 1:10

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
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10 I was in the Spirit In the thread on sensus plenior we spoke of the six ways of knowing God. The last three were all in the spirit (hearing, seeing, walking). They all concern the Word of God. It is a appropriate allegory to note that the breath of God (Spirit) carries the Word of God (Christ). John was hearing, seeing and walking in the spirit...

on the Lord’s day, Have you ever considered what the difference is between the Lord's day and the Day of the Lord? Only the word order. JOhn was in the Spirit considering the Day of the Lord... the day of the Cross.

and heard Hearing is the instinctive knowledge that God is. Hearing in the spirit is the instinctive knowledge that Christ is spoken of in the scriptures even when you can't see the details. What is heard is 'familiar' like a sheep hearing the shepherd's voice.

behind me In the things past.

a great voice, John heard a revelation of God in the same voice that Israel heard at the Mt.
De 5:22 These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, with a great voice: and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.
He is not only claiming that the authority is the same, but that the revelation is the same.

Paul said that he law that Israel received has a shadow of the good things coming. Now that Christ and the cross had come, John is pointing back to the shadow to reveal Christ in it.

Contrast with the 'still, small voice' that Elijah heard. Elijah did not have a clear picture of Christ and only saw in shadows. But John has seen the mystery revealed with a shout.

as of a trumpet, The blowing of the trumpet is associated with various proclamations.

I was engulfed in the word of God considering the cross when the familiar voice in the things of the Old Testament sounded like the booming voice of God in a proclamation.
 
Bob Jones said:
If I err, I would rather err by looking at Christ than looking for an antiChrist. I would rather be prepared to die than to learn to fly.

.
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I just ask a simple qeustion which could have been anwwered with a yes or no.
I'm looking for Christ too, not the antichrist. We're all going to 'fly' away someday :)
 
GodSpeaks said:
I just ask a simple qeustion which could have been anwwered with a yes or no.
I'm looking for Christ too, not the antichrist. We're all going to 'fly' away someday :)
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I'm sorry. No offense intended. It wasn't meant to be personal. It was a generalizatioon about all the hype about the antichrist and looking to Jerusalem for fulfillment. If there were no antichrist in the story line, no one would be buying all the popular books on it.

I am reluctant to answer yes or no because the answer is too easily put into someone else's box. Had I said it was past, one might presume I was talking preterism. Had I said it was future, it would not have been an accurate answer since it is both past for those who have passed and future for those of us who haven't... and it is tentative since it hasn't been correlated and verified with everything else the Bible says about it.
 
OOps I read tribulation but answered rapture...

You are correct. I could have said that Jesus' tribulation is THE Great Tribulation and that is past.
And Revelation appears to be a Rosetta stone talking about the cross using the symbols of the OT rather than some future event.
 
Rev 1:11

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: See v1:8 This differs. The beginning and the end, differs from the first and the last. Though first and last can refer to things within time, they can also refer to greatest and least. We have a verbal picture of the cross between beginning and ending as the horizontal bar and greatest and least as the vertical bar.

and, What thou seest, Between hearing, seeing and wlaking, Seeing is understanding.


write Between mouth, hands and feet, Mouth is associated with the word, hands with works, and feet with life. Do a work

in a book, A book is a physical representat6ion of the Word and represents the incarnate Christ. In Christ

and send it unto the seven churches and send it to all of the churches

which are in Asia; which are the bride in persecution in the Holy Spirit (eesha is bride and fire, and fire is tribulation and the Holy Spirit at the same time) The story of Eli's son's show the role of the Holy Spirit in the tribulation of Christ.

The next seven terms will be riddles for describing the church:

unto Ephesus, "permitted" We now have access to the king:
Ac 26:1 Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Thou art permitted to speak for thyself. Then Paul stretched forth the hand, and answered for himself:

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

and unto Smyrna, "myrrh" a type of oil representing the Holy Spirit.

and unto Pergamos, "height" The heights are where we go to commune with God.

and unto Thyatira, "odor of affliction" is the sweet savor of total devotion to the Father.

and unto Sardis, "red ones" still in physical bodies. I would use the word 'earthly' except I generally use it to speak of fallen flesh. In the dualism of sensus plenior, flesh itself is not evil, it becomes evil when placed in a preeminent position to the Word of God.

and unto Philadelphia, "brotherly love" Joh 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

and unto Laodicea. "justice of the people" Hirah, the friend of Judah was an Adullamite, meaning 'justice of the people'. Together they went to Timnath to 'cut off the sheep'. or judge the church. We are judges in the same way that Christ was. Our trusting Christ ... resisting sin, should put others to shame as did the faith of the Judges.

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

The audience for the book is the church in persecution in the Holy Spirit. The book itself represents the 'work of Christ' and should reflect his works throughout the Bible as suggested to the disciples on the road to Emmaus.
 
Rev 1:12

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
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12 And I turned I was converted, or changed my thinking.

to see to understand

the voice that spake with me. The living Word that spoke with me.

And being turned, And being converted...

I saw I understood

seven the complete

golden divine

candlesticks; revelation of God. The candlestick in the temple represents that the six testimonies of God are one testimony.

Basically he says the light came on and he was able to understand the hidden pictures of Christ. This was my experience. In a very short period, I could start seeing pictures of Christ popping out everywhere. It did not happen for me by way of any distinguishable miracle, but that a rabbi taught me to read the scriptures like a rabbi. He could not see Jesus because he refused to look at Jesus. He was taught that when he saw the white rock he should not say "water, water". When he saw Christ he should not say that he was the Torah in heaven and on earth.
 
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