Why Abortion is murder.

Aug 19, 2014
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I must admit to having a lazy compromising view on abortion in the past, that somehow in some circumstances a woman is okay to just flush away a life.
but recently I had to make a definite statement and clarify my own view.
so here it is:
My life, your life, as a human being on a timeline,
begins at a zero point when the sperm fertilises an egg.
Beyond that zero point is murder.
It is murder of a life.

A life is not a growth, an anomaly, a something.
When a woman chooses abortion, regardless of the reason, she has killed a human being even at the zero point of pregnancy, regardless of the features or ability or otherwise of that human. A human never begins when it is born at the nine month mark.


Her Rights and Cultural/religious groups.
Should a woman have an abortion because of the inconvenience of peer pressure of family or work? Should a woman be forced and live in fear because of the cultural or the religious view of her family or relatives? Be they Muslim or Christian or whatever ethnic minority from where ever in the world they may have come?
No. How have women gained any kind of equality when others have forced her to their way of thinking? If it’s not a question of equality then it is at least one of freedom from oppression.

A Woman’s rights over her own body.
A woman like a man has the right to protect her own body and its parts, however once she becomes pregnant she by having an abortion is not just attempting harm to herself but is taking away any rights of a future unborn human being regardless of its legal status.

STATUS of a fertilised egg.
While it has no current immediate status, it does so as a future fully functioning member of society.
Abortion is a direct attack of harm against the zero point on the timeline of a human being.
It is not a question of its FUNCTIONAL ability but its LEGAL entity
.
It has come to exist as a fact and therefore should have a legal equality with its mother even though they now SHARE the same body.
You can wipe away many illegitimate evil people from History by Abortion, but you will also wipe away: Confucius, Leonardo da Vinci, Lawrence of Arabia, Eva Peron, William the Conqueror, Oprah Winfrey, Sophia Loren, Etc

I say these things only to any woman contemplating such an act,
I certainly won't be outside the clinic waving a flag or quoting scriptures,
or condemning you, you will have enough to deal with.
You need only understand you have sinned and need to repent and confess to God,
not to me or man.
But rather....
If you find life inside of you, no matter what the cause,
you have inside of you innocence and greatness,
a future, a hope, a prosperity if you nurture them with love.
 
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G'day there THALLON,
Her Rights and Cultural/religious groups.
Should a woman have an abortion because of the inconvenience of peer pressure of family or work? Should a woman be forced and live in fear because of the cultural or the religious view of her family or relatives? Be they Muslim or Christian or whatever ethnic minority from where ever in the world they may have come?
No. How have women gained any kind of equality when others have forced her to their way of thinking? If it’s not a question of equality then it is at least one of freedom from oppression.
Isn't it also true that placing a woman in the position of having to carry a baby against her desires also a denial of her equality and freedom?
I agree with much of what you say, however there needs to be a great deal of compassion extended to a woman/girl faced with an unwanted pregnancy.
There is no black and white here..I don't believe, there is, must be some grey areas.
I personally know a woman (not closely) who was raped and left with an unwanted pregnancy. She elected to go full term, but would have nothing to do with the baby who was then reared by grandmom. That child grew up in a family environment where he knew his birth mom and knew she would not even acknowledge him and why she would not. Should he have been aborted? I think if we were to ask him, he would be horrified at the thought, and vote in favour of life..his.

I think one important and unknowable fact omitted from your reasoning is::
At what point does the Zygote/embryo/foetus acquire the status of 'image of God'?
God is Spirit, not flesh and blood, so at some unknown point during the gestational period the human spirit, the image of God as it were, is placed within the unborn child, when does this happen?
At any time before this happens, would it be fair to say that the unborn is the image of man only?
So in my understanding, we start out as a Zygote, and by the time we are born, we are gifted with the spirit from God which imparts to us the image of God.
One question I have, and must leave the answer to those much more knowledgeable that I ,
if a human 'baby' were to be aborted before the gifting of spirit, would that same spirit then be gifted to another baby?
Interesting and challenging thread THALLON thank you for posting it.
 
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but recently I had to make a definite statement and clarify my own view.
@calvin
On murder and deliberate killing of another:
Gensis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 21:14
But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
Leviticus 24:17
And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
Numbers 35:31
Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Manslaughter:
Exodus 21:13
And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
Numbers 35:11-12
Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares.
And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.
Joshua 20:2-3
Speak to the children of Israel, saying, Appoint out for you cities of refuge, whereof I spake unto you by the hand of Moses:
That the slayer that killeth any person unawares and unwittingly may flee thither: and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood.

KILLING OF UNBORN CHILD:
Exodus 21:22-25
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished,
according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, [mischief = H611 > hurt] further harming to the woman...
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

As far as I can read that is about the only verses on penalties for the killing of an unborn child.
There is no death penalty, no life for life punishment in respect to this.
However the Hebrew word for this use of strive is - H5327 naw-tsaw' go forth, desolate, to quarrel - implying that the death
of a child in the womb is a by-product of violent behaviour against the woman, rather than the wanton killing of a baby for
convenience as it is today.
In the end there is no death penalty for the killing of an unborn child or in causing a miscarriage of a baby.
Calvin is thinking along my thoughts - that it is not until a baby is born and takes his or her's first breath that they become a
living soul - created in the image of God - possessing a soul.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
 
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Thoughts on this...the bible does say that when Elizabeth was pregnant with John, the baby leapt for joy in her womb.

How could he do that if he did not possess a soul in the womb.

Another thing is David says in his psalm that He is fearfully and wonderfully made.

Before you were born I knew you, I formed you. Psalm 139 says for you created my INMOST being, you knit me together in my mothers womb.

We possess a soul, spirit and body. People dont seem to understand that its the soul that contains the spirit and the body is the flesh part. Inside the womb, the body is being formed, but it posseses a soul from the moment of conception. To be given the spirit by God. Not everyone has the spirit of course, for that, you need to be born again.
 

Fish Catcher Jim

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We possess a soul, spirit and body. People dont seem to understand that its the soul that contains the spirit and the body is the flesh part. Inside the womb, the body is being formed, but it posseses a soul from the moment of conception. To be given the spirit by God. Not everyone has the spirit of course, for that, you need to be born again.
Soul = Mind - Will - Emotions
All men have a spirit = spirit of man
Spirit of God is placed in us when we are born again. It's as a Born Again Spirit

Hence the phrase - sold your sole to the devil = giving your mind, will (actions) emotions unto the devil.

The Spirit weather born again or not can not be killed. The spirit of an unborn born again man will also live for eternity Seperated from God in hell.

The body is as an "earth suite"
Without it, we as His created beings can not dwell here.
Just as an astronaut will die if he removes his space suite when in outer space. We will die the first death if we are Seperated from our earth suit. That is as far as having life on this earth.

The earth suit rots and Spirit of man lives on. Your soul sticks with your spirit. Another words you are still you with mind intact.
Think about that when one believes there is no suffering in hell.

Blessings
 
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G'day there THALLON,

Isn't it also true that placing a woman in the position of having to carry a baby against her desires also a denial of her equality and freedom?
I agree with much of what you say, however there needs to be a great deal of compassion extended to a woman/girl faced with an unwanted pregnancy.
There is no black and white here..I don't believe, there is, must be some grey areas.
I personally know a woman (not closely) who was raped and left with an unwanted pregnancy. She elected to go full term, but would have nothing to do with the baby who was then reared by grandmom. That child grew up in a family environment where he knew his birth mom and knew she would not even acknowledge him and why she would not. Should he have been aborted? I think if we were to ask him, he would be horrified at the thought, and vote in favour of life..his.

I think one important and unknowable fact omitted from your reasoning is::
At what point does the Zygote/embryo/foetus acquire the status of 'image of God'?
God is Spirit, not flesh and blood, so at some unknown point during the gestational period the human spirit, the image of God as it were, is placed within the unborn child, when does this happen?
At any time before this happens, would it be fair to say that the unborn is the image of man only?
So in my understanding, we start out as a Zygote, and by the time we are born, we are gifted with the spirit from God which imparts to us the image of God.
One question I have, and must leave the answer to those much more knowledgeable that I ,
if a human 'baby' were to be aborted before the gifting of spirit, would that same spirit then be gifted to another baby?
Interesting and challenging thread THALLON thank you for posting it.
the statistics are that 99% of all abortions are due to convenience - 1% are rape or a danger to a mother's health

if a woman had to pay for her own abortion you bet she would deal with it differently - probably take sure fire action against getting pregnant in the first place

when we offer free abortions we are helping people be irresponsible
 
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This issue has been in the news lately as the govt is debating whether or not to 'decriminalise' or 'legalise' abortion. I find it ironic that they are going to discuss the issue when the PM of my country is pregnant. If she had an abortion, God forbid, my understanding is under a new law it would be legal, and nobody could say she and her partner or the abortionist are murderers. Well the law would be on the side of her choice, or some such rot. People could set up a business killing unborn babies and they wouldnt need to keep it secret. Maybe they would advertise it openly? I dont know.


I was reading this memoir about the doomed singer and actress Judy Garland. Its well known now that when she was pregnant with her first child, because she was in movies, MGM ordered her or pressured her to have an abortion. Because her being a mother would mess up her movie schedule or something ridiculous like that. Well anyway that was the end of her first marriage. She married about five times. So her third husband wrote this memoir, and shared that when they were going out (committing adultery at the same time, as they were still married to their previous spouses) Judy fell pregnant but it was right before a scheduled concert tour that he had arranged and so far from being pleased he said well you cant be pregnant and have a baby you have these concerts to do. So she being naive and traineed by mgm to pleas her bosses just took him for his word and had an abortion. I dont know whether in her day people paid to have it done or not. But it was a pretty common thing to do in hollywood.

They did end up marrying and having two children together but I just found it shocking that a woman can say to the father of her child, even if shes not married to him, shes pregnant and he can say dont have it cos its not convenient. And the father to be blames the woman for getting pregnant as if he doesnt know how she got that way in the first place.
Um..hello?! do men think that women have babies by being delivered by a stork or what?!


The thing is people claim its a womans choice but I would say in many cases its the mans choice because the MAN has said he doesnt want the baby. What can a woman do about that, have the baby anyway and bring it up all by herself? This can happen even if the couple is married. I have heard of cases where the couple is married but the doctor advises the mum to have a 'therapeutic abortion' because its not convenient to have a child, or they find out something wrong with the unborn baby and pronounce a curse upon the child from conception. Its rarely ever to do with the mother to be's health its just the 'inconvenience' to the father to be ability to look after their own child.
 
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Am not trying to blame the guy alone as it takes two to tango but people often pin it on the woman saying well its the womans choice to have one. I would beg to differ and say well death and life are in the power if the tongue and its often its because the man wants it killed. I knew a lady who said she had one, she told me she was going out with a guy, fell pregnant, of course wasnt married but they were living together, anyway she chose to have an abortion after the guy she was with agreed to 'have it out' because if the guy had said, no, Im going to look after our child, im prepared to marry you she probably would have changed her mind. Rarely if ever does the guy say well, whatever you choose to do I will support you, the woman has the mindset of, have it out or have the baby myself and depend on govt support.

Now if the woman chooses to have the baby anyway that child is even then under a curse. From their own dad who doesnt want to know. Do men not think they have a responisbilty to any children they conceive?
 
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@calvin
On murder and deliberate killing of another:
Gensis 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
Exodus 21:14
But if a man come presumptuously upon his neighbour, to slay him with guile; thou shalt take him from mine altar, that he may die.
Leviticus 24:17
And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
Numbers 35:31
Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death.

Manslaughter:
Exodus 21:13
And if a man lie not in wait, but God deliver him into his hand; then I will appoint thee a place whither he shall flee.
Numbers 35:11-12
Then ye shall appoint you cities to be cities of refuge for you; that the slayer may flee thither, which killeth any person at unawares.
And they shall be unto you cities for refuge from the avenger; that the manslayer die not, until he stand before the congregation in judgment.
Joshua 20:2-3
Speak to the children of Israel, saying, Appoint out for you cities of refuge, whereof I spake unto you by the hand of Moses:
That the slayer that killeth any person unawares and unwittingly may flee thither: and they shall be your refuge from the avenger of blood.

KILLING OF UNBORN CHILD:
Exodus 21:22-25
If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished,
according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, [mischief = H611 > hurt] further harming to the woman...
Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

As far as I can read that is about the only verses on penalties for the killing of an unborn child.
There is no death penalty, no life for life punishment in respect to this.
However the Hebrew word for this use of strive is - H5327 naw-tsaw' go forth, desolate, to quarrel - implying that the death
of a child in the womb is a by-product of violent behaviour against the woman, rather than the wanton killing of a baby for
convenience as it is today.
In the end there is no death penalty for the killing of an unborn child or in causing a miscarriage of a baby.
Calvin is thinking along my thoughts - that it is not until a baby is born and takes his or her's first breath that they become a
living soul - created in the image of God - possessing a soul.
Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
Waggles I dont know how you can read scripture and come to a conclusion opposite of what scripture says. It clearly says if mischief follow that the one that harmed the baby will be punished life for life. If no mischief follows the judge will determine the sentence by the womans husband,

However it does not say in cases of the babies own father harming his own child, but rarely does the dad perform the abortion he just gets someone else to do it. Basically hiring a hit man to kill your own child. Still means you do it anyway just get someone else to clean up the blood.
 
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Thoughts on this...the bible does say that when Elizabeth was pregnant with John, the baby leapt for joy in her womb.

How could he do that if he did not possess a soul in the womb.

Another thing is David says in his psalm that He is fearfully and wonderfully made.

Before you were born I knew you, I formed you. Psalm 139 says for you created my INMOST being, you knit me together in my mothers womb.

We possess a soul, spirit and body. People dont seem to understand that its the soul that contains the spirit and the body is the flesh part. Inside the womb, the body is being formed, but it posseses a soul from the moment of conception. To be given the spirit by God. Not everyone has the spirit of course, for that, you need to be born again.
 
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Watched a movie called October Baby.
Its based on a true story of someone who survived an abortion attempt. The baby was born premature however, she survived.

I have issues with anyone who calls an abortion of a child a 'by-product of violence'. The bible clearly says a woman with child. Not a woman with by-product.
 
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Watched a movie called October Baby.
Its based on a true story of someone who survived an abortion attempt. The baby was born premature however, she survived.

I have issues with anyone who calls an abortion of a child a 'by-product of violence'. The bible clearly says a woman with child. Not a woman with by-product.
You are absolutely correct.
Either the Lord is in control or man is in control, and it isn't sinful man.
I'll try to watch this movie soon.
 
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Apparently the bodies of aborted babies are cremated, i.e incinerated, or their body parts and cells are used in medical experiments. Some are even used to make cosmetics.

Nobody seems to care about them as souls precious to God. Just because they are still being formed, does not mean they can be destroyed.
 
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The problem here is the usual: people pretend to know something when they don't, and/or they claim biblical justification for their opinions when the bible does not say any such thing.

Soul is a Hebrew concept, a synonym for a living breathing creature. When the creature stops breathing, the soul is dead. Anybody who uses the word in any other context either doesn't know what they are talking about, or is trying to sell something you don't need. Except musicians. Musicians are cool, and they know exactly what they mean by "soul".

Genesis 2:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A baby does not become a living soul until it breathes.
 

rtm3039

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The problem here is the usual: people pretend to know something when they don't, and/or they claim biblical justification for their opinions when the bible does not say any such thing.

Soul is a Hebrew concept, a synonym for a living breathing creature. When the creature stops breathing, the soul is dead. Anybody who uses the word in any other context either doesn't know what they are talking about, or is trying to sell something you don't need. Except musicians. Musicians are cool, and they know exactly what they mean by "soul".

Genesis 2:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A baby does not become a living soul until it breathes.
Hi....

1. I found your comment about musicians really funny, thanks.
2. Not sure I want to agree with your comment about not being a soul, until the body "breaths." Actually, not sure when breathing takes place. Let me get back on that one. ..., OK, checked with my scientist wife and you are right.

So, in what context do you make this comment?

rtm3039
 
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Hi....

1. I found your comment about musicians really funny, thanks.
2. Not sure I want to agree with your comment about not being a soul, until the body "breaths." Actually, not sure when breathing takes place. Let me get back on that one. ..., OK, checked with my scientist wife and you are right.

So, in what context do you make this comment?

rtm3039
Well, you know, the context here is "Abortion is murder." It is not murder if the growth is not a living soul.

Exodus 21:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Not at all the same pronouncement as for murder!
 
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rtm3039

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Well, you know, the context here is "Abortion is murder." It is not murder if the growth is not a living soul.

Exodus 21:22 King James Version (KJV)
22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Not at all the same pronouncement as for murder!
Saul Mine,

Ok, I have to admit that this is a perspective I have never given thought to. I get it, but then what is the child from conception to birth? So, can I assume you do not believe an abortion is the taking of a life? Do you consider abortion a sin?

These are just questions and I am not judging. Just trying to see things from different perspectives and I believe you do offer a very different perspective.

rtm3039
 
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Saul Mine,

Ok, I have to admit that this is a perspective I have never given thought to. I get it, but then what is the child from conception to birth? So, can I assume you do not believe an abortion is the taking of a life? Do you consider abortion a sin?

These are just questions and I am not judging. Just trying to see things from different perspectives and I believe you do offer a very different perspective.

rtm3039
Is it murder to remove tonsils?
 

rtm3039

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Is it murder to remove tonsils?
Hm. Ok, I have to admit that I find no flaw in your logic. I want to see if anyone else weighs in, but I get it. I agree with your interpretation of the soul and, absent the sour, I can see why it would not be considered murder or killing.

This is something I will need to ponder for a while. Thank you for your remarks.

PS. In His creation of woman, there is no mention of breathing into her nostrils the breath of life, and the woman became a living being.

rtm3039
 
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The problem here is the usual: people pretend to know something when they don't, and/or they claim biblical justification for their opinions when the bible does not say any such thing.

Soul is a Hebrew concept, a synonym for a living breathing creature. When the creature stops breathing, the soul is dead. Anybody who uses the word in any other context either doesn't know what they are talking about, or is trying to sell something you don't need. Except musicians. Musicians are cool, and they know exactly what they mean by "soul".

Genesis 2:7 King James Version (KJV)
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

A baby does not become a living soul until it breathes.
Except Adam was not a baby. He was a man.
The other thing was, God formed all babies in the womb and knit their bones together. He is present from before birth.
So, you argument that babies not yet born are like tonsils is silly.

If John the bapist can leap for joy in his mothers womb, he is not a tonsil.

If you want to jusitfy something to yourself, fine, but it cuts no ice with God. You will need to account for every tonsil I mean unborn child you murdered.

Also maybe go into a birthing clinic and hospital and observe. Many women have still births and miscarriages because their babies have DIED in the womb. Now how can their babies die if you insist they werent even alive. They had a heart that was beating.