Why Abortion is murder.

Apr 13, 2019
131
69
28
79
Yuma, AZ USA
Except Adam was not a baby. He was a man.
The other thing was, God formed all babies in the womb and knit their bones together. He is present from before birth.
So, you argument that babies not yet born are like tonsils is silly.

If John the bapist can leap for joy in his mothers womb, he is not a tonsil.

If you want to jusitfy something to yourself, fine, but it cuts no ice with God. You will need to account for every tonsil I mean unborn child you murdered.

Also maybe go into a birthing clinic and hospital and observe. Many women have still births and miscarriages because their babies have DIED in the womb. Now how can their babies die if you insist they werent even alive. They had a heart that was beating.
You're such a sweetheart!
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Im going to name names in this thread.
I was reading in a book called .womankind about a pioneering woman who pushed for abortion laws to change, introduced the pill, and had abortions and practiced abortions.

She had an abortion cos it was 'the wrong time' and didnt seem to link the act of making babies with actually falling pregnant, despite taking 'precautions'.

This woman is in her eighties now and her name is Margaret Sparrow.

There is a reform organisation called ALARANZ wanting abortion laws reformed and decriminalised. Their argument is 'safer abortions' ie. abortions that only kill the baby, not the mother.

I am not sure what to think about this, but I recall something in Leviticus about an unfaithful or suspected adulterer having to drink something to make her ill, which supposedly is to abort any child she may have from the liasion.

I dont know if it means all the fathers of these children just arent prepared to look after their own offspring. But I think theres something weird about this. So..if the baby is born and they are illegitimate, is it better for everyone if they werent born at all?
 

rtm3039

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Feb 5, 2019
961
685
93
Miami, FL
Im going to name names in this thread.
I was reading in a book called .womankind about a pioneering woman who pushed for abortion laws to change, introduced the pill, and had abortions and practiced abortions.

She had an abortion cos it was 'the wrong time' and didnt seem to link the act of making babies with actually falling pregnant, despite taking 'precautions'.

This woman is in her eighties now and her name is Margaret Sparrow.

There is a reform organisation called ALARANZ wanting abortion laws reformed and decriminalised. Their argument is 'safer abortions' ie. abortions that only kill the baby, not the mother.

I am not sure what to think about this, but I recall something in Leviticus about an unfaithful or suspected adulterer having to drink something to make her ill, which supposedly is to abort any child she may have from the liasion.

I dont know if it means all the fathers of these children just arent prepared to look after their own offspring. But I think theres something weird about this. So..if the baby is born and they are illegitimate, is it better for everyone if they werent born at all?
That is a complicated question. For sure, it isn't better for the baby.

rtm3039
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Its in Numbers chapter 5, not Leviticus, sorry. It sounds like abortion to me. Although am not sure they give women anything to drink these days, I heard they just poke the baby with a syringe and scrape or suck it out. I heard in olden days women would use knitting needles.
 
  • Sad
Reactions: bobinfaith

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Hello Lanolin;

Unfortunately, throughout history many different tools whether primitive (knitting needles, clothes hangers, etc...) or the latest technology was used to prevent the birth of a baby. Regardless, its abortion.

What we don't hear about in today's communities and media are answered prayers, the young women who choose to keep their baby whether consented or if forced (raped). The young women's life situation may be horrible, but choose to trust God who will turn their lives around for His good and honor the mother who reveres God's creation.

God bless you and your family.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chili
Sep 7, 2019
162
141
43
55
North Carolina
I apologize in advance if the reality of this offends anyone.

In this nation approximately 1 million babies are murdered every year through abortion. It is used as a form of birth control, and even uses some of our tax dollars. Its acceptable to abort a living child, but socially unacceptable to harm an animal because they are helpless creatures.

This world of ours needs a lot of prayer...
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Doesnt Paul say women are saved through childbearing? Was he talking about pregnant women?

For population control or birth control in animals what they do is de-sex the animals, they dont make them have abortions. Or physically separate the males from the females.

In China its probably a higher figure than US. But it seems for many female babies, they just get abandoned. So what is worse...? What do you think about adoption?

Has anyone seen the movie October Baby? One of the actresses in it actually had an abortion, so it was true to life. I often wonder why the MEN arent taking any responsibilty for anything. People say its a womans choice but ehat about the men?
 

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Doesnt Paul say women are saved through childbearing? Was he talking about pregnant women? For population control or birth control in animals what they do is de-sex the animals, they dont make them have abortions. Or physically separate the males from the females. In China its probably a higher figure than US. But it seems for many female babies, they just get abandoned. So what is worse...? What do you think about adoption? Has anyone seen the movie October Baby? One of the actresses in it actually had an abortion, so it was true to life. I often wonder why the MEN arent taking any responsibilty for anything. People say its a womans choice but ehat about the men?
Hey Lanolin;

In 1 Timothy 2:15, 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

This verse you asked has to be connected to the previous passage in verse 14, 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Paul is holding Adam accountable for the prime nature of the fall in Genesis 3:6. In 1 Timothy 2:15 "saved through childbearing" is referring to the birth of Jesus. Put both verses together is saying we all are saved through the most important birth of Christ. The women's trial of childbearing goes on to teach submissive qualities of serving, loving, teaching her children while Trusting in the guidance of our Almighty God.

Why men aren't taking responsibility for the outcome of women who consent before marriage or rape?
In both cases men are responsible. In my teens it became reality when I went to high school and a few of the girls I knew got pregnant. It was a wake up call for me at age 15 - 17.

I wasn't a role model teenager and in my later years had to lay my secret confessions of sin to the Lord and others. My late Mom, took the time to sit and explain to me at 15 that if I happen to get a girl pregnant, she and my Dad would be there for me, meaning we would have to go the girl's house and meet with her parents and take responsibility for the outcome of child birth. Abortion in our family and faith is definitely not an option. Most likely I would have to go to work and attend night school to get my GED, after all, this is not just the girl's baby, but mine also!

When my parents brought up rape they told me it wasn't just women but men who get violated as well. That blew me away! Remembering that long talk with my parents gave me the heebie jeebies.

My parents used the teachings from Deuteronomy 6:5-9, 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

As a young man I was taught the responsibility of being with a young women or when I got married in the future, but my parents also took responsibility for teaching my siblings and me about our faith. I'm not saying its been all smooth sailing and I was far from being a righteous dude, but I did receive a foundation of right and wrong to start at a young age.

God bless you, Lanolin, and your family.
 
  • Like
Reactions: chili
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
My parents didnt tell me anything.
Mum just said dont sleep with anybody till your married, and she didnt explain why. I didnt even know about periods, I learned though school and friends.

There was one girl who got pregnant in high school, I think the youngest that I knew was 13. But since girls start menstruating as young as 9, they could fall pregnant even younger. Especially if they dont understand what it takes to fall pregnant.

At university some girls that had boyfriends were on the pill. It was just assumed as soon as you hit puberty you were going to be sleeping around. I dont know what the girls said to the boys about that. Most boys I knew just didnt bother with contraception. But it was kinda taught that anyone who went out, if they were a guy, had a condom in their wallet or something. Not that that is in anyway effective but I grew up at the time of AIDS and thats what we were taught in school.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: bobinfaith
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Many parents, that I knew just said to their girls if you want to keep a man go have his babies. Well that didnt work for most of them! I can tell you that right now. They might have been there for the birth and first few years but then they just took of afterwards. Nobody really got married its too expensive. Not many people in my generation gets married, but it is a big deal if they do decide, often AFTER they've had the child.
 

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
My parents didnt tell me anything. Mum just said dont sleep with anybody till your married, and she didnt explain why. I didnt even know about periods, I learned though school and friends. There was one girl who got pregnant in high school, I think the youngest that I knew was 13. But since girls start menstruating as young as 9, they could fall pregnant even younger. Especially if they dont understand what it takes to fall pregnant. At university some girls that had boyfriends were on the pill. It was just assumed as soon as you hit puberty you were going to be sleeping around. I dont know what the girls said to the boys about that. Most boys I knew just didnt bother with contraception. But it was kinda taught that anyone who went out, if they were a guy, had a condom in their wallet or something. Not that that is in anyway effective but I grew up at the time of AIDS and thats what we were taught in school.
Hi Lanolin;

Your Mom told you very direct and thats why you remember years later. Thats a good thing! Not all parents are going to have the same conversations of caution with their children, or say anything at all. This could be the reason many girls and boys back in my younger years had babies or secretly had an abortion (we learned later.)

Sad note. I remember a buddy, a real nice guy, from junior high and high school, lived with his Dad and don't know if they ever had a conversation of caution with girls.

When we got into high school, he got his girlfriend pregnant, chose to help his girlfriend raise their baby, tried to finish high school and find a job. It was too much for him and he ended up taking a gun to his head. I don't know what happened to his girlfriend and child but the child would have grown to be 44 years old today.

God bless you, Lanolin.
 
Feb 10, 2015
844
997
93
Maryland
One major reason we discuss this repeatatively without much advance, particularly in the U.S. is that we are continually debating whether and in what form our laws should enforce whatever stance we hold both as Christians and as citizens.

In my view it will do no good making our laws enforce any view untill we as a people come to concensus. As long as we as a nation are polarized on this issue, any change in the law can be canged back after the next election. Insisting on polarized issues and views will never be stable.

I can remember prior to Rowe V Wade. The illegality of abortion only resulted in back alley abortion clinics, and in my home state of California, a thriving industry accross the Mexican border. The result was edifying to no one.

To make lasting change in society, we must make fundamental spiritual changes in ourselves. If we as a society were more interested in following Gods will, these laws would neither be controversial nor as necessary.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bobinfaith

rtm3039

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Feb 5, 2019
961
685
93
Miami, FL
Hi Lanolin;

Your Mom told you very direct and thats why you remember years later. Thats a good thing! Not all parents are going to have the same conversations of caution with their children, or say anything at all. This could be the reason many girls and boys back in my younger years had babies or secretly had an abortion (we learned later.)

Sad note. I remember a buddy, a real nice guy, from junior high and high school, lived with his Dad and don't know if they ever had a conversation of caution with girls.

When we got into high school, he got his girlfriend pregnant, chose to help his girlfriend raise their baby, tried to finish high school and find a job. It was too much for him and he ended up taking a gun to his head. I don't know what happened to his girlfriend and child but the child would have grown to be 44 years old today.

God bless you, Lanolin.
Reading the discussion with you and Lanolin, made me remember my own first discussion about the birds and the bees. When I was in 5th grade, during lunch period, a friend of mine (Raymond) told me that, to have babies, you first had to have sex. When I got home that night, during supper, I remember that I told my parents what Raymond said. I recall my mom looked at my dad and then just said "he lied." That was the first and only conversations either of my parents had with me about the subject. Even at that age, I had a weekend job stocking the shelves at a local mom and pop grocery store. They use to sell these magazines called "The forum." This was kind of a technical magazine about sex. I learned everything I needed to learn, by reading the magazine while hiding in the alley behind the store.

Fifty years later, the store (and the apartment I grew up in) ate still there and so it the alley where I sad down and read about the birds and the bees. Guess time is standing still in the old neighborhood.

store.JPG

alley.JPG
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Huh. The more things change, the more things stay the same as people say...

Going back to topic, the OP was saying abortion is murder, so how is it different if the person you are killing isnt even born. Well for a start they dont have a name. And what is the reason for killing them, unlike other murders its not for revenge or cos you hate them, why do mums do it because they dont want to look after that baby right now. They always reason they can have another one later.

Is this murder or is it more unintentional, seeing as the baby doesnt have a name. And also, the mother doesnt do it herself she gets someone else to do it for her so its more like assisted killing.
Another thing with abortions is they are not given any funeral or burial. Im not sure what exactly happens to the bodies but I can guess they are 'disposed' of which is similar to born murder victims where they are either hidden away or left to rot. So is this killing or is it more like culling.

Not trying to dimiss is but just how is it different to any other kind of murder?
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
Would it be say like if you were to raise a whole lot of seeds to grow plants but before they germinated, or aprouted out of the ground ie.e where born, you just upset the whole tray and dumped them so they wouldnt grow cos it was the wrong time. Even if some of them had started to grow. Is this worse or better than cutting them down after they are born.
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
If abortion was really criminalised and treated as murder, why arent more people going to jail for it. Just wondering. If it is homcide then where is the justice? The abortionists ought to be locked up so they cannot practice, as are people aiding and abetting it. They are serial killers.
 
Dec 19, 2014
5,696
2,431
113
New Zealand
www.literatelibrarian.com
There is a christian movie coming out about abortion called Unplanned. A friend asked me to see it but I dont really have the time right now (ironic? ) it just you have to prebook tickets months ahead for it. And she cant go on certain dates. Im studying at moment so cant really take the time to see it.

You can plan for things, but then there is Gods plan, which overrides everything else.
Another thing is His expected end may not be the same as yours. God has higher expectations of us I suppose. We are quite limited in our perspective of being human. I think if He wants to give us children, there will be miracles even if we dont think we are prepared, because for sure Mary didnt actually plan her pregnancy. She just got told she was going to have a baby.

Its interesting how some people react, some think thats wonderful news but others are like NOOOO.