Why Abortion is murder.

Apr 13, 2019
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Except Adam was not a baby. He was a man.
The other thing was, God formed all babies in the womb and knit their bones together. He is present from before birth.
So, you argument that babies not yet born are like tonsils is silly.

If John the bapist can leap for joy in his mothers womb, he is not a tonsil.

If you want to jusitfy something to yourself, fine, but it cuts no ice with God. You will need to account for every tonsil I mean unborn child you murdered.

Also maybe go into a birthing clinic and hospital and observe. Many women have still births and miscarriages because their babies have DIED in the womb. Now how can their babies die if you insist they werent even alive. They had a heart that was beating.
You're such a sweetheart!
 
Dec 19, 2014
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Im going to name names in this thread.
I was reading in a book called .womankind about a pioneering woman who pushed for abortion laws to change, introduced the pill, and had abortions and practiced abortions.

She had an abortion cos it was 'the wrong time' and didnt seem to link the act of making babies with actually falling pregnant, despite taking 'precautions'.

This woman is in her eighties now and her name is Margaret Sparrow.

There is a reform organisation called ALARANZ wanting abortion laws reformed and decriminalised. Their argument is 'safer abortions' ie. abortions that only kill the baby, not the mother.

I am not sure what to think about this, but I recall something in Leviticus about an unfaithful or suspected adulterer having to drink something to make her ill, which supposedly is to abort any child she may have from the liasion.

I dont know if it means all the fathers of these children just arent prepared to look after their own offspring. But I think theres something weird about this. So..if the baby is born and they are illegitimate, is it better for everyone if they werent born at all?
 

rtm3039

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Im going to name names in this thread.
I was reading in a book called .womankind about a pioneering woman who pushed for abortion laws to change, introduced the pill, and had abortions and practiced abortions.

She had an abortion cos it was 'the wrong time' and didnt seem to link the act of making babies with actually falling pregnant, despite taking 'precautions'.

This woman is in her eighties now and her name is Margaret Sparrow.

There is a reform organisation called ALARANZ wanting abortion laws reformed and decriminalised. Their argument is 'safer abortions' ie. abortions that only kill the baby, not the mother.

I am not sure what to think about this, but I recall something in Leviticus about an unfaithful or suspected adulterer having to drink something to make her ill, which supposedly is to abort any child she may have from the liasion.

I dont know if it means all the fathers of these children just arent prepared to look after their own offspring. But I think theres something weird about this. So..if the baby is born and they are illegitimate, is it better for everyone if they werent born at all?
That is a complicated question. For sure, it isn't better for the baby.

rtm3039
 
Dec 19, 2014
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Its in Numbers chapter 5, not Leviticus, sorry. It sounds like abortion to me. Although am not sure they give women anything to drink these days, I heard they just poke the baby with a syringe and scrape or suck it out. I heard in olden days women would use knitting needles.
 
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bobinfaith

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Hello Lanolin;

Unfortunately, throughout history many different tools whether primitive (knitting needles, clothes hangers, etc...) or the latest technology was used to prevent the birth of a baby. Regardless, its abortion.

What we don't hear about in today's communities and media are answered prayers, the young women who choose to keep their baby whether consented or if forced (raped). The young women's life situation may be horrible, but choose to trust God who will turn their lives around for His good and honor the mother who reveres God's creation.

God bless you and your family.
 
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Sep 7, 2019
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I apologize in advance if the reality of this offends anyone.

In this nation approximately 1 million babies are murdered every year through abortion. It is used as a form of birth control, and even uses some of our tax dollars. Its acceptable to abort a living child, but socially unacceptable to harm an animal because they are helpless creatures.

This world of ours needs a lot of prayer...
 
Dec 19, 2014
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Doesnt Paul say women are saved through childbearing? Was he talking about pregnant women?

For population control or birth control in animals what they do is de-sex the animals, they dont make them have abortions. Or physically separate the males from the females.

In China its probably a higher figure than US. But it seems for many female babies, they just get abandoned. So what is worse...? What do you think about adoption?

Has anyone seen the movie October Baby? One of the actresses in it actually had an abortion, so it was true to life. I often wonder why the MEN arent taking any responsibilty for anything. People say its a womans choice but ehat about the men?
 

bobinfaith

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Doesnt Paul say women are saved through childbearing? Was he talking about pregnant women? For population control or birth control in animals what they do is de-sex the animals, they dont make them have abortions. Or physically separate the males from the females. In China its probably a higher figure than US. But it seems for many female babies, they just get abandoned. So what is worse...? What do you think about adoption? Has anyone seen the movie October Baby? One of the actresses in it actually had an abortion, so it was true to life. I often wonder why the MEN arent taking any responsibilty for anything. People say its a womans choice but ehat about the men?
Hey Lanolin;

In 1 Timothy 2:15, 15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

This verse you asked has to be connected to the previous passage in verse 14, 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

Paul is holding Adam accountable for the prime nature of the fall in Genesis 3:6. In 1 Timothy 2:15 "saved through childbearing" is referring to the birth of Jesus. Put both verses together is saying we all are saved through the most important birth of Christ. The women's trial of childbearing goes on to teach submissive qualities of serving, loving, teaching her children while Trusting in the guidance of our Almighty God.

Why men aren't taking responsibility for the outcome of women who consent before marriage or rape?
In both cases men are responsible. In my teens it became reality when I went to high school and a few of the girls I knew got pregnant. It was a wake up call for me at age 15 - 17.

I wasn't a role model teenager and in my later years had to lay my secret confessions of sin to the Lord and others. My late Mom, took the time to sit and explain to me at 15 that if I happen to get a girl pregnant, she and my Dad would be there for me, meaning we would have to go the girl's house and meet with her parents and take responsibility for the outcome of child birth. Abortion in our family and faith is definitely not an option. Most likely I would have to go to work and attend night school to get my GED, after all, this is not just the girl's baby, but mine also!

When my parents brought up rape they told me it wasn't just women but men who get violated as well. That blew me away! Remembering that long talk with my parents gave me the heebie jeebies.

My parents used the teachings from Deuteronomy 6:5-9, 5 You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

As a young man I was taught the responsibility of being with a young women or when I got married in the future, but my parents also took responsibility for teaching my siblings and me about our faith. I'm not saying its been all smooth sailing and I was far from being a righteous dude, but I did receive a foundation of right and wrong to start at a young age.

God bless you, Lanolin, and your family.
 
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My parents didnt tell me anything.
Mum just said dont sleep with anybody till your married, and she didnt explain why. I didnt even know about periods, I learned though school and friends.

There was one girl who got pregnant in high school, I think the youngest that I knew was 13. But since girls start menstruating as young as 9, they could fall pregnant even younger. Especially if they dont understand what it takes to fall pregnant.

At university some girls that had boyfriends were on the pill. It was just assumed as soon as you hit puberty you were going to be sleeping around. I dont know what the girls said to the boys about that. Most boys I knew just didnt bother with contraception. But it was kinda taught that anyone who went out, if they were a guy, had a condom in their wallet or something. Not that that is in anyway effective but I grew up at the time of AIDS and thats what we were taught in school.
 
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Dec 19, 2014
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Many parents, that I knew just said to their girls if you want to keep a man go have his babies. Well that didnt work for most of them! I can tell you that right now. They might have been there for the birth and first few years but then they just took of afterwards. Nobody really got married its too expensive. Not many people in my generation gets married, but it is a big deal if they do decide, often AFTER they've had the child.
 

bobinfaith

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My parents didnt tell me anything. Mum just said dont sleep with anybody till your married, and she didnt explain why. I didnt even know about periods, I learned though school and friends. There was one girl who got pregnant in high school, I think the youngest that I knew was 13. But since girls start menstruating as young as 9, they could fall pregnant even younger. Especially if they dont understand what it takes to fall pregnant. At university some girls that had boyfriends were on the pill. It was just assumed as soon as you hit puberty you were going to be sleeping around. I dont know what the girls said to the boys about that. Most boys I knew just didnt bother with contraception. But it was kinda taught that anyone who went out, if they were a guy, had a condom in their wallet or something. Not that that is in anyway effective but I grew up at the time of AIDS and thats what we were taught in school.
Hi Lanolin;

Your Mom told you very direct and thats why you remember years later. Thats a good thing! Not all parents are going to have the same conversations of caution with their children, or say anything at all. This could be the reason many girls and boys back in my younger years had babies or secretly had an abortion (we learned later.)

Sad note. I remember a buddy, a real nice guy, from junior high and high school, lived with his Dad and don't know if they ever had a conversation of caution with girls.

When we got into high school, he got his girlfriend pregnant, chose to help his girlfriend raise their baby, tried to finish high school and find a job. It was too much for him and he ended up taking a gun to his head. I don't know what happened to his girlfriend and child but the child would have grown to be 44 years old today.

God bless you, Lanolin.
 
Feb 10, 2015
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One major reason we discuss this repeatatively without much advance, particularly in the U.S. is that we are continually debating whether and in what form our laws should enforce whatever stance we hold both as Christians and as citizens.

In my view it will do no good making our laws enforce any view untill we as a people come to concensus. As long as we as a nation are polarized on this issue, any change in the law can be canged back after the next election. Insisting on polarized issues and views will never be stable.

I can remember prior to Rowe V Wade. The illegality of abortion only resulted in back alley abortion clinics, and in my home state of California, a thriving industry accross the Mexican border. The result was edifying to no one.

To make lasting change in society, we must make fundamental spiritual changes in ourselves. If we as a society were more interested in following Gods will, these laws would neither be controversial nor as necessary.
 
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rtm3039

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Hi Lanolin;

Your Mom told you very direct and thats why you remember years later. Thats a good thing! Not all parents are going to have the same conversations of caution with their children, or say anything at all. This could be the reason many girls and boys back in my younger years had babies or secretly had an abortion (we learned later.)

Sad note. I remember a buddy, a real nice guy, from junior high and high school, lived with his Dad and don't know if they ever had a conversation of caution with girls.

When we got into high school, he got his girlfriend pregnant, chose to help his girlfriend raise their baby, tried to finish high school and find a job. It was too much for him and he ended up taking a gun to his head. I don't know what happened to his girlfriend and child but the child would have grown to be 44 years old today.

God bless you, Lanolin.
Reading the discussion with you and Lanolin, made me remember my own first discussion about the birds and the bees. When I was in 5th grade, during lunch period, a friend of mine (Raymond) told me that, to have babies, you first had to have sex. When I got home that night, during supper, I remember that I told my parents what Raymond said. I recall my mom looked at my dad and then just said "he lied." That was the first and only conversations either of my parents had with me about the subject. Even at that age, I had a weekend job stocking the shelves at a local mom and pop grocery store. They use to sell these magazines called "The forum." This was kind of a technical magazine about sex. I learned everything I needed to learn, by reading the magazine while hiding in the alley behind the store.

Fifty years later, the store (and the apartment I grew up in) ate still there and so it the alley where I sad down and read about the birds and the bees. Guess time is standing still in the old neighborhood.

store.JPG

alley.JPG
 
Dec 19, 2014
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Huh. The more things change, the more things stay the same as people say...

Going back to topic, the OP was saying abortion is murder, so how is it different if the person you are killing isnt even born. Well for a start they dont have a name. And what is the reason for killing them, unlike other murders its not for revenge or cos you hate them, why do mums do it because they dont want to look after that baby right now. They always reason they can have another one later.

Is this murder or is it more unintentional, seeing as the baby doesnt have a name. And also, the mother doesnt do it herself she gets someone else to do it for her so its more like assisted killing.
Another thing with abortions is they are not given any funeral or burial. Im not sure what exactly happens to the bodies but I can guess they are 'disposed' of which is similar to born murder victims where they are either hidden away or left to rot. So is this killing or is it more like culling.

Not trying to dimiss is but just how is it different to any other kind of murder?
 
Dec 19, 2014
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Would it be say like if you were to raise a whole lot of seeds to grow plants but before they germinated, or aprouted out of the ground ie.e where born, you just upset the whole tray and dumped them so they wouldnt grow cos it was the wrong time. Even if some of them had started to grow. Is this worse or better than cutting them down after they are born.
 
Dec 19, 2014
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If abortion was really criminalised and treated as murder, why arent more people going to jail for it. Just wondering. If it is homcide then where is the justice? The abortionists ought to be locked up so they cannot practice, as are people aiding and abetting it. They are serial killers.
 
Dec 19, 2014
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There is a christian movie coming out about abortion called Unplanned. A friend asked me to see it but I dont really have the time right now (ironic? ) it just you have to prebook tickets months ahead for it. And she cant go on certain dates. Im studying at moment so cant really take the time to see it.

You can plan for things, but then there is Gods plan, which overrides everything else.
Another thing is His expected end may not be the same as yours. God has higher expectations of us I suppose. We are quite limited in our perspective of being human. I think if He wants to give us children, there will be miracles even if we dont think we are prepared, because for sure Mary didnt actually plan her pregnancy. She just got told she was going to have a baby.

Its interesting how some people react, some think thats wonderful news but others are like NOOOO.
 
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A friend went to see this movie 'unplanned' and was telling me about it. She said it was quite graphic.
The character in it who had the abortion or actually two did so because she broke up with her husband as he was cheating on her but she found she was pregnant to him. Or something like that dont quote me. Then she avtually started working for the abortion clinic until one day she observed an abortion being performed and it opened her eyes.

Im not sure why she didnt seem to know what was happening when she had the abortions herself. I think its quite obvious that a life is being extinguished before its even given a chance to be born. But maybe women arent thinking about that at the time. Maybe they think I dont want to be a single mother. Or to be with someone whos unfaithful.

The single mothers I know often do know the father but the dad does not want to stick around after a couple of years, or they are unmarried. But it seems that a lot of women who have abortions dont even think well Im prpeared to raise this child on my own, no matter what, even if the dad doenst want to be with me. Thats brave.

So I feel for the single mothers out there whos partners deserted them. They did not chose abortion. They chose to be a mother anyway.
 

aha

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I must admit to having a lazy compromising view on abortion in the past, that somehow in some circumstances a woman is okay to just flush away a life.
but recently I had to make a definite statement and clarify my own view.
so here it is:
My life, your life, as a human being on a timeline,
begins at a zero point when the sperm fertilises an egg.
Beyond that zero point is murder.
It is murder of a life.

A life is not a growth, an anomaly, a something.
When a woman chooses abortion, regardless of the reason, she has killed a human being even at the zero point of pregnancy, regardless of the features or ability or otherwise of that human. A human never begins when it is born at the nine month mark.

Her Rights and Cultural/religious groups.

Should a woman have an abortion because of the inconvenience of peer pressure of family or work? Should a woman be forced and live in fear because of the cultural or the religious view of her family or relatives? Be they Muslim or Christian or whatever ethnic minority from where ever in the world they may have come?
No. How have women gained any kind of equality when others have forced her to their way of thinking? If it’s not a question of equality then it is at least one of freedom from oppression.

A Woman’s rights over her own body.
A woman like a man has the right to protect her own body and its parts, however once she becomes pregnant she by having an abortion is not just attempting harm to herself but is taking away any rights of a future unborn human being regardless of its legal status.

STATUS of a fertilised egg.
While it has no current immediate status, it does so as a future fully functioning member of society.
Abortion is a direct attack of harm against the zero point on the timeline of a human being.
It is not a question of its FUNCTIONAL ability but its LEGAL entity
.
It has come to exist as a fact and therefore should have a legal equality with its mother even though they now SHARE the same body.
You can wipe away many illegitimate evil people from History by Abortion, but you will also wipe away: Confucius, Leonardo da Vinci, Lawrence of Arabia, Eva Peron, William the Conqueror, Oprah Winfrey, Sophia Loren, Etc

I say these things only to any woman contemplating such an act,
I certainly won't be outside the clinic waving a flag or quoting scriptures,
or condemning you, you will have enough to deal with.
You need only understand you have sinned and need to repent and confess to God,
not to me or man.
But rather....
If you find life inside of you, no matter what the cause,
you have inside of you innocence and greatness,
a future, a hope, a prosperity if you nurture them with love.

Just pitching in a thought…. Not yet read each post, just browsed, that the topic went from an individual to state laws...

MURDER, as I understand it, is more of an individual act.

An individual act .

An act or non-act of two or three or more people…

An act or non-act of the community…

An act or non-act of a nation.

Precisely I see the justice in God’s judgement of a town or a city or a nation.

I think: Abortion is not simply an act of an individual.

I think abortion is more than an individual act…. It can be a failure of a NATION.

Just a thought.
 

rtm3039

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Just pitching in a thought…. Not yet read each post, just browsed, that the topic went from an individual to state laws...

MURDER, as I understand it, is more of an individual act.

An individual act .

An act or non-act of two or three or more people…

An act or non-act of the community…

An act or non-act of a nation.

Precisely I see the justice in God’s judgement of a town or a city or a nation.

I think: Abortion is not simply an act of an individual.

I think abortion is more than an individual act…. It can be a failure of a NATION.

Just a thought.
aha, I thought I knew were you were headed with this, but I lost you at the first curve.

Murder is the intentional taking of a life. In other words, the taking of a life with "mens rea." Now, for obvious reasons, we can all agree that an abortion requires an intentional act by at least one person (the person performing the act) and could also include (1) the person upon which the act is perform on and (2) those who facilitate the act either by assisting in the act or supporting the act; Number 2 is, in my opinion, how an abortion can be considered the failure of a nation.

So, the questions then falls on a decision of determining if what is taken actually a life. If life starts at conception. If this is true, we have met all the requirements to call an abortion murder.

Using Genesis 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being," someone once answered that question by saying that "it" is not a life, until the first breath is taken.

As for me, even when I was not a believer, I still opined that life starts the moment the sperm and egg united. However, my position was that, while I personally do not agree with abortions, my respect for a woman's right to make that call overrode my personal belief. My step-daughter had an abortion several years ago. She basically had an abortion as retroactive birth control (she wanted to get pregnant, the father left her, and she reversed her original desire through a medical procedure where the one with the most to lose had the least to say. For my part, as she was in her late 20s and living on her own, I did not try to talk her out of it; however, refused to pay for the procedure. This is a difficult subject to deal with and I am not sure what our Christianity requires us to do, when it's someone else during the "murdering."

Granted, the answer, if the one being murdered is living outside the whom, is to take any action necessary to stop it. Not sure this can be applied otherwise.

Yup, not really sure about this one....