Why you can expect to see Pharaoh and Judas in Heaven

J

Juk

God used both Pharaoh and Judas for important events in the course of the world. Listen to what God says about those whom He chooses:

Romans 9:15-18 KJV
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth.

Not only this, though. It is recorded that Pharaoh actually repented.

Exodus 14:4 KJV
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord . And they did so.

Judas also repented:

Matthew 27:3 KJV
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

I also want to research King Nebuchadnezzar, but I don't know that chapter or book. I think it's the book of Daniel.

In conclusion, you can see, God shows mercy upon those He chooses by making them repent of their sins after job is done. They also usually die afterwards.
 
This is likely to head in the direction of predestination vs freewill :D

I believe in predestination. At the same time, I also fully believe that a person goes to hell only because he or she rejected Jesus. I have mentioned this in other posts also. Reason why a person goes to heaven is only because God predestines. Reason why a person goes to hell is only because he or she rejected Jesus. Bible mentions these at so many places. We should be careful here. The reverse of the statements are not true. A person does not go to hell because God predestined. A person does not go to heaven because he or she chose God.

Regarding the other part, Judas and Pharaoh had only regret. Not repentance. Regret is a feeling that they could have done something better. repentance is complete U-Turn. Judas had regret for what he did. And not repentance. There is a huge difference between these 2.

Though we are no one to judge who goes to hell, the Bible closes both these characters with clear indications that they did not repent.
 
Ravindran said:
This is likely to head in the direction of predestination vs freewill :D

I believe in predestination. At the same time, I also fully believe that a person goes to hell only because he or she rejected Jesus. I have mentioned this in other posts also. Reason why a person goes to heaven is only because God predestines. Reason why a person goes to hell is only because he or she rejected Jesus. Bible mentions these at so many places. We should be careful here. The reverse of the statements are not true. A person does not go to hell because God predestined. A person does not go to heaven because he or she chose God.

Regarding the other part, Judas and Pharaoh had only regret. Not repentance. Regret is a feeling that they could have done something better. repentance is complete U-Turn. Judas had regret for what he did. And not repentance. There is a huge difference between these 2.

Though we are no one to judge who goes to hell, the Bible closes both these characters with clear indications that they did not repent.
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The Bible verse clearly says that Judas repented. And I believe that God only predestined some people, such as Pharaoh and Judas. If God predestined every believer, that would not be fair to those who end up in hell. By not choosing for them to go to heaven, God chose that they would go to hell. This is not necessarily true if God only predestined some people.
 
Juk said:
The Bible verse clearly says that Judas repented. And I believe that God only predestined some people, such as Pharaoh and Judas. If God predestined every believer, that would not be fair to those who end up in hell. By not choosing for them to go to heaven, God chose that they would go to hell. This is not necessarily true if God only predestined some people.
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That would make half of the Bible wrong, my friend! I have been there! trust me :)
God does not send anyone to hell. Everyone is doomed to hell. And people go to hell only because they personally rejected Jesus as Savior.

Here is a good read on why Judas had only regret and not repentance.
http://www.gty.org/resources/print/bible-qna/BQ030813
 
Ravindran said:
That would make half of the Bible wrong, my friend! I have been there! trust me :)
God does not send anyone to hell. Everyone is doomed to hell. And people go to hell only because they personally rejected Jesus as Savior.

Here is a good read on why Judas had only regret and not repentance.
http://www.gty.org/resources/print/bible-qna/BQ030813
Click to expand...
Matthew 27:3 KJV
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

What are some Bible verses that talk about predestination as you see it?
 
For Mathew 27:3, check NASB and ESV translation. They don't use the word repent. I am not Greek expert. If I am right, the Greek word used here not necessarily translate to repent. Certainly not the way we understand repentance to be.

How about the famous statement by Joshua? Choose whom you serve today. As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. Bible is full of advice on how we should conduct our lives. If there is no free will, why would there be so much advice? There are so many verses (in fact almost entire Bible) talking about choices we should make carefully. If there is no free will, where do choices come from?

At the same time, Bible clearly speaks about predestination. Romans 8:28-30, being the most powerful one.
 
Ravindran said:
For Mathew 27:3, check NASB and ESV translation. They don't use the word repent. I am not Greek expert. If I am right, the Greek word used here not necessarily translate to repent. Certainly not the way we understand repentance to be.

How about the famous statement by Joshua? Choose whom you serve today. As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. Bible is full of advice on how we should conduct our lives. If there is no free will, why would there be so much advice? There are so many verses (in fact almost entire Bible) talking about choices we should make carefully. If there is no free will, where do choices come from?

At the same time, Bible clearly speaks about predestination. Romans 8:28-30, being the most powerful one.
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I believe that we have free will. We obviously have free will. But predestination (of all believers) completely contradicts free will.
 
Ravindran said:
For Mathew 27:3, check NASB and ESV translation. They don't use the word repent. I am not Greek expert. If I am right, the Greek word used here not necessarily translate to repent. Certainly not the way we understand repentance to be.

How about the famous statement by Joshua? Choose whom you serve today. As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord. Bible is full of advice on how we should conduct our lives. If there is no free will, why would there be so much advice? There are so many verses (in fact almost entire Bible) talking about choices we should make carefully. If there is no free will, where do choices come from?

At the same time, Bible clearly speaks about predestination. Romans 8:28-30, being the most powerful one.
Click to expand...
I do believe in free will. But predestination and free will cannot go together. As for the verse you proposed, it could easily mean that God predestinated others not to be saved, but to be like Jesus, after they are saved.
 
um this is confusing. I think..its clear Judas motives were questionable and satan used it to his advantage. And Pharoah hardened his own heart first.
Judas was remorseful. I think even Saul repented. But some things you cannot buy back..you have to go to God. As far as I know I'm not sure Judas and Pharoah were saved in the end but their behaviour is not one to emulate. God didn't want them to go to hell..but it seems what they meant for evil turned out for good. They did not love the Lord, and to me it seems too little too late. However also I know of people you think did not ever know the Lord yet Jesus still stretched out his hand at the last moment and they repented and they in heaven now...not with huge rewards like a long time christian would have crowns and such winning souls etc...but they still somehow, because they admitted they wrong and asked for forgiveness, obtained that rest.
 
As for Judas, did he not eat the last supper with the Lord after he had set his heart to betray Jesus?

1Co_11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
So Judas Iscariot is the first person recorded as being guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
and it was recognized that Judas was it up to his neck.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
'his own place' suggests that he will be held in isolation, left with only his memories and regrets.
Mat 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."
Sounds like he is not going to be included in the kingdom to me.
 
calvin said:
As for Judas, did he not eat the last supper with the Lord after he had set his heart to betray Jesus?

1Co_11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
So Judas Iscariot is the first person recorded as being guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.
and it was recognized that Judas was it up to his neck.
Acts 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which one of these two you have chosen
Acts 1:25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
'his own place' suggests that he will be held in isolation, left with only his memories and regrets.
Mat 26:24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born."
Sounds like he is not going to be included in the kingdom to me.
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True. I did not consider those verses. I wonder why Judas was punished so harshly when he was essential to the salvation of all men.
 
Juk said:
God used both Pharaoh and Judas for important events in the course of the world. Listen to what God says about those whom He chooses:

Romans 9:15-18 KJV
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. [16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. [17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. [18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy , and whom he will he hardeneth.

Not only this, though. It is recorded that Pharaoh actually repented.

Exodus 14:4 KJV
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the Lord . And they did so.

Judas also repented:

Matthew 27:3 KJV
Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

I also want to research King Nebuchadnezzar, but I don't know that chapter or book. I think it's the book of Daniel.

In conclusion, you can see, God shows mercy upon those He chooses by making them repent of their sins after job is done. They also usually die afterwards.
Click to expand...

One thing is for certain... God does not want either of them in hell 2 Pet 3:9. So lets just hope they did repent. The evidence doesn't point there though. I would have expected Judas to not die and Pharaoh to have shown remorse earlier. Both showed a depth of intent of hatred toward God. Always on thin ice when we should know better. Judas was with Jesus everyday. Pharaoh had no doubt that God was with Moses and that he was guilty of gross miss-treatment of Hebrews...yet he still persisted.

If they had truthfully repented we would be reading about them like we do of Paul.
 
Juk, you will find on this forum many who use what is called Eisegesis when interpreting Scripture.

Eisegesis is the practice of injecting one's own interpretation into a passage instead of sticking to Exegesis which is extracting meaning from a passage.

With that in mind, I have chosen two passages about the betrayal of Jesus.
Old testament mention of the betrayal:
Psa 41:9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.

Now if we avoid injecting meaning that is not there we have only an awareness that someone, a friend and companion would be a betrayer.
Exegesis will not name anyone for us, we need to be disciplined and not use Eisegesis.
Even though we later learn that Judas was the betrayer, we can not actualy say this in connection with the psalm, we must stick to a rigid exegesis and only join the dots when our studies are complete.

Now moving on the the New testament, we learn that Jesus chose one person out of the large crowd that was His followers.
John 13:18. I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, 'He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.'

We know very little about the circumstances surrounding the calling of Judas Iscariot.
We read in Luke ch 6 that Jesus called a group of His disciples to him and selected twelve that were to become apostles and Judas Iscariot was one of them.
Though Judas is not mentioned prior to this it is safe to say that he had been traveling with Jesus and a large group of disciples. because:
Luk 6:13. And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:
Luk 6:14. Simon, whom he named Peter, and Andrew his brother, and James and John, and Philip, and Bartholomew,
Luk 6:15. and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon who was called the Zealot,
Luk 6:16. and Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.
Luk 6:17. And he came down with them and stood on a level place, with a great crowd of his disciples and a great multitude of people from all Judea and Jerusalem and the seacoast of Tyre and Sidon,

As can be seen Jesus had a very large following of disciples, but out of that group He selected twelve, one of which was Judas..
Jesus was able to tell what was in a man's heart, and out of such a large gathering it is not at all surprising that He was able to identify at least one whose heart was filled with treachery.
John 6:70. Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil."

John 6:71. He spoke of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he, one of the Twelve, was going to betray him.

Jesus knew the heart of Judas and selected him because He knew that Judas would betray Him.
There is nothing of compulsion to be read into these passages, Judas' heart was totally not right.
Consider: John 2:23. Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing.
John 2:24. But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people
John 2:25. and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

And so Jesus chose Judas out of a crowd because He knew that Judas' heart was filled with evil even to the point of betrayal.
At no time can we find that Judas was compelled to betray Jesus......it was his free choice.
 
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Juk, another way of describing Eisegesis is when people set out with an idea or notion about something and work hard to try and make God's word prove it. Sort of like hammering a square peg into a round hole.
Exegesis on the other hand takes God's word and allows it to teach us His truth.
 
KingJ said:
One thing is for certain... God does not want either of them in hell 2 Pet 3:9. So lets just hope they did repent. The evidence doesn't point there though. I would have expected Judas to not die and Pharaoh to have shown remorse earlier. Both showed a depth of intent of hatred toward God. Always on thin ice when we should know better. Judas was with Jesus everyday. Pharaoh had no doubt that God was with Moses and that he was guilty of gross miss-treatment of Hebrews...yet he still persisted.

If they had truthfully repented we would be reading about them like we do of Paul.
Click to expand...
God was the one that hardened Pharaoh's heart most of the time.
 
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