Why you can expect to see Pharaoh and Judas in Heaven
- Thread starter Juk
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Ok, let me try and explain this as I see it. God is all powerful, right? He created everything, even time, right? God is in eternity - a place without time - and when we are with Him we are outside of time as well, inside eternity. Eternity has no beginning and it has no end. After all, Paul says we're already seated in the heavenlies, Eph 2:6. So, if you're outside of time, you know all about what's inside of time, every choice made by those inside of time. You know the beginning and you know the ending, right? So, if God knows that one person will not accept His will, God will use him to fulfill God's will. Everything created WILL give glory to God. God knows all things, knows every choice. When God created Adam, God gave Adam (and us) two very special gifts that only God has: choice and creativity. He gave the angels only choice. God said that whatever we can imagine we can do, Gen 11:6. Man imagined he could fly, and here we are, flying to other planets and all over ours. Because we're becoming one language (internet), the stars are no longer the limits. Science has credited Star Trek for a lot of modern breakthroughs because they were thought of by writers. Jules Verne is credited for getting man to the moon, subways, submersible boats, and much more, and he lived in the 1800s and died in 1905! God's will will be done. He will win because He's already won. When one of us chooses to disobey God, He'll either wait until you're ready to be obedient, or He'll move on. Katherine Kolman asked the Lord why He chose her, and He told her, it was because 6 men turned Him down. God knows who will choose to go to hell and who will choose heaven. So God will use whom He wishes to use, good or bad, to complete His will. In Pharaoh's case, to get the glory of setting HIS people free. After all, it is HIStory, and He can do whatever He pleases to do.
You said in ten words what took me a paragraph to say! Hi Juk,
To begin, I will try my best not to speak about free-will and predestination (even though it is a fundamental of salvation and clearly taught in scripture).
Your post concerns the eternal destiny of Pharoah and Judas, so let's look at some scripture to see where they might be headed.
Concerning Judas, we read in John chapter 17 Jesus prays for his disciples before he descends into the grave. In verse 12 he says to the Father "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.". Now, we obviously know the one doomed to destruction is referring to Judas, but what exactly does it mean to be "doomed to destruction"? Is it a temporal destruction, or an eternal one? That is for you to decide considering the next verse on the matter. John 6:7 Jesus says “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”. We also read in the Gospels that satan the devil himself entered into Judas. As far as I know, God would not let one of his children be possessed by the evil one. The only ones that satan has power over are those who are his own, those who will be sent to hell with him. So can we say with confidence that Judas will be in the kingdom of God? No, we cannot. It is most likely according to scripture he will be in hell.
Concerning Pharaoh, you say because he repented he will be in God's kindgom? If you have read the Exodus story correctly, you would know that after he let God's people go he proceeded to send his army after them into the red sea. So if his repentance is your argument for his being in the kingdom of God, it falls flat on its face. Pharaoh was no Child of God. If you think he will be in God's kingdom you will need a better argument.
To begin, I will try my best not to speak about free-will and predestination (even though it is a fundamental of salvation and clearly taught in scripture).
Your post concerns the eternal destiny of Pharoah and Judas, so let's look at some scripture to see where they might be headed.
Concerning Judas, we read in John chapter 17 Jesus prays for his disciples before he descends into the grave. In verse 12 he says to the Father "While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.". Now, we obviously know the one doomed to destruction is referring to Judas, but what exactly does it mean to be "doomed to destruction"? Is it a temporal destruction, or an eternal one? That is for you to decide considering the next verse on the matter. John 6:7 Jesus says “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”. We also read in the Gospels that satan the devil himself entered into Judas. As far as I know, God would not let one of his children be possessed by the evil one. The only ones that satan has power over are those who are his own, those who will be sent to hell with him. So can we say with confidence that Judas will be in the kingdom of God? No, we cannot. It is most likely according to scripture he will be in hell.
Concerning Pharaoh, you say because he repented he will be in God's kindgom? If you have read the Exodus story correctly, you would know that after he let God's people go he proceeded to send his army after them into the red sea. So if his repentance is your argument for his being in the kingdom of God, it falls flat on its face. Pharaoh was no Child of God. If you think he will be in God's kingdom you will need a better argument.
Glomung
Account Closed
You forget that Jesus said that for the one who betrayed him "it would be better that he had not been born".
That is about the harshest thing Jesus ever said about anyone.
Also, Judas committed suicide, which is the complete despair of God.
I strongly doubt there is anything but perdition for Judas Iscariot.
That is about the harshest thing Jesus ever said about anyone.
Also, Judas committed suicide, which is the complete despair of God.
I strongly doubt there is anything but perdition for Judas Iscariot.
Thanks, I got what you are saying.Ok, let me try and explain this as I see it. God is all powerful, right? He created everything, even time, right? God is in eternity - a place without time - and when we are with Him we are outside of time as well, inside eternity. Eternity has no beginning and it has no end. After all, Paul says we're already seated in the heavenlies, Eph 2:6. So, if you're outside of time, you know all about what's inside of time, every choice made by those inside of time. You know the beginning and you know the ending, right? So, if God knows that one person will not accept His will, God will use him to fulfill God's will. Everything created WILL give glory to God. God knows all things, knows every choice. When God created Adam, God gave Adam (and us) two very special gifts that only God has: choice and creativity. He gave the angels only choice. God said that whatever we can imagine we can do, Gen 11:6. Man imagined he could fly, and here we are, flying to other planets and all over ours. Because we're becoming one language (internet), the stars are no longer the limits. Science has credited Star Trek for a lot of modern breakthroughs because they were thought of by writers. Jules Verne is credited for getting man to the moon, subways, submersible boats, and much more, and he lived in the 1800s and died in 1905! God's will will be done. He will win because He's already won. When one of us chooses to disobey God, He'll either wait until you're ready to be obedient, or He'll move on. Katherine Kolman asked the Lord why He chose her, and He told her, it was because 6 men turned Him down. God knows who will choose to go to hell and who will choose heaven. So God will use whom He wishes to use, good or bad, to complete His will. In Pharaoh's case, to get the glory of setting HIS people free. After all, it is HIStory, and He can do whatever He pleases to do.
Amen!!!
Well, I was wrong again...
We use short words like belief and faith and repentance all the time. What we mean is a much more complex issue.
Take for instance the quip:
For a much more serious instance, read
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.[KJV]
So belief as a general concept is not enough.
Repentance is not enough. Here I am being a bit facetious, but Judas could have been overcome that he did not haggle for more money.
Understanding that you have done wrong and would not do whatever again is not the issue.
Accepting our Lord's sacrifice as payment and giving one's soul over to God IS.
As far as Judas is concerned, if he, in his last moment of consciousness accepted our lord's payment for what he did to our Lord, and gave his soul to God to do with as He wills, that is enough. Personally, and I have no authority or special knowledge, I doubt it. Certainly he wished he had never betrayed our Lord, but I think he was still looking toward himself and not toward God.
As for Pharaoh, it is even more less likely that he came to reverence our God and wished Him to guide Pharaoh's life. He may have been sorry that he let God's people leave, and that he paid for it with his own son, but that's not the same thing.
Take for instance the quip:
Everyone believes in something... I believe I will have another piece of cake.
For a much more serious instance, read
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
So belief as a general concept is not enough.
Repentance is not enough. Here I am being a bit facetious, but Judas could have been overcome that he did not haggle for more money.
Understanding that you have done wrong and would not do whatever again is not the issue.
Accepting our Lord's sacrifice as payment and giving one's soul over to God IS.
As far as Judas is concerned, if he, in his last moment of consciousness accepted our lord's payment for what he did to our Lord, and gave his soul to God to do with as He wills, that is enough. Personally, and I have no authority or special knowledge, I doubt it. Certainly he wished he had never betrayed our Lord, but I think he was still looking toward himself and not toward God.
As for Pharaoh, it is even more less likely that he came to reverence our God and wished Him to guide Pharaoh's life. He may have been sorry that he let God's people leave, and that he paid for it with his own son, but that's not the same thing.
One hopes that they would be found in heaven. I can't speak in regards to Pharoah -- at least, not with any good evidence...not now anyway.
But with Judas, this has been a subject of controversy between lots of people since some think he is now in heaven. I don't think he is because I think Jesus' words in the Scriptures pointed out pretty clearly that Judas would perish in hell.
In John 17:12, Jesus was speaking of his disciples. It says "While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled." The title "Son of Perdition" was directed toward Judas Iscariot. He was an apostate who knew Christ quite well and still directly disobeyed Him.
But going forward, we have record that Judas despaired, but not that he repented. His hanging himself was not an act of repentance, it was an act of despair.
Maybe God chose Judas because he was so evil and there was no chance for him.
That's an interesting thought, but I don't think that's it because nothing it outside of God's power. Judas's choice to betray Jesus was exactly that--his choice. God knew what was going to haven, but we're predestined to have free will. Judas exercised his and decided to do the wrong thing.
Judas betrayed Christ, and on the same night Peter denied Jesus. While Judas did regret his decision--evidenced by his returning the silver--he despaired and committed suicide. Peter too regretted his decision, as he wept once the cock crowed. But he remained with the other apostles and disciples, maintained hope in the resurrection, and later had the opportunity to directly tell Christ not once but three times--to counter his three denials--that he loved Him. To me this is a powerful story of why we should not despair in the face of our sin but repent and remember Christ's love, forgiveness, and mercy.
I'm sure those words will be great encouragement to all who read them thank you for sharing
Just saying, the betrayal of Jesus was crucial to the salvation of all men.
Excellent. It is important to note the disparity between Judas sense of remorse and peter's. Ones' sent him to self-centered despair and suicide, and the other to repentance and a restored relationship with Jesus, who loved Him dearly.
So does self-centeredness and despair mean I am not a Christian? I am a very self-centered person and I ask God to change me all the time. I am so evil I despair about it sometimes. Does that mean I don't love Jesus?