Hebrews 6:6 does not teach a loss of Salvation.

[Ginger]

If we are all led by the Holy Spirit then why are there 30,000 denominations, cults, sects, counterfeits ........ why is there debate? Hello?

Dok! This is another myth created to discredit those whom one group disagrees with.

I like you Dok, so don't misunderstand what I am about to say - it is NOT directed at you.

I am so tired of myths and unsubstantiated theories being touted as proof over and over again, until people just simply accept it as fact - even when they are shown proof it is mere speculation!!!!

Somewhere in this forum, I am sure we discussed this 20,000, um 30,000, er I think it was 40,000 denominations myth last time I heard, and it is false.

Catholics love to throw it in our faces and say the source is dependable and accurate and when you point out the source also claims hundreds of Catholic denominations they state that is false, there is only one Catholic church, but still claim that source is accurate!!!!

It doesn't even make sense!!! A source is 100% correct....except where they are wrong. lol

 

[Panda]

There are basically Three versions of Christianity. RCC, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox.

Protestants have 5 basic divisions: Lutheran, Anglican, Reformed, Anabaptist/Believers, and Pentecostal-Charismatic.

Each of those have various denominations that only differ on methodology and minor differences. Again, not thousands. Generally speaking, there are relatively few. For instance, there are three major variations of Lutheran. There are less than a dozen variations of Anglican, and some of those variations actually cause it to be combined with Reformed or Pentecostal. Overall, there are really fewer than about 50 variations, but all go back to the same 5 basic theologies.

To assume thousands of denominations is simply an assumption. There are no statistics to support that. The only statistic you could quote is by treating all the weird variations of Independent Community Churches as separate denominations.

 

[Dok]

Ban: I notice that you use "basically" and "versions." That leaves you some wiggle room, does it not? Actually, there are four prevalent forms: Original Christians, RCC, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox. The original Christians hold to a pure form of doctrine. Doctrine for them does not need to be discussed; it is spiritually beyond discussion. None of the other three "get it right." Their "basic versions" contain everything from minor differences to egregious (if not blasphemous) heresies. (I think I should inject that the Original Christians, while prevalent then, are not prevalent now. Far too many guesses, errors, translations, commentators, and contradiction hunters have really muddied the waters of the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, THE Gift of God). The utter corruption by the Catholic Church as an institution, as organized religion, is primarily responsible for the mix-up over the past centuries.

I once asked quite a number of persons this question: "Are you a Christian?" Some were offended. Most said "O, I believe the Bible," or "O, I believe in God." Some said "I try to be." And then there were those who didn't respond. Few responded with joy that they had been born again and were sealed unto the Day of Redemption. When asked if they attended church regularly, the answers were "going to church doesn't save you," and "not all the time," and "sometimes," and "you some kind of Jesus freak?" And then there were those who.............. well, you know.

I'm still wondering how there can be debates if we are all occupied by the same Holy Spirit. Could it be that, well, maybe, uh, perhaps, that well, you know, uh, something is getting in the way? I mean, you know........... just asking........

I dread having to footnote the words in my responses, but it seems that it may become necessary. "30,000" is like saying "I've heard that story a zillion times." Obviously, it means "a lot," or "over and over again." I'm sorry now that I used it without a footnote. Problem is, I don't know how to make that tiny little number above the word. I guess I could just type FOOTNOTE!!

 

[Dok]

Understand that I'm not talking about denominations here but Christians, not Mormons, not JWs.

I'm talking about the number of variations when Christians read the same text. How can that be? It is as you say: the Holy Spirit in us is just One. So how is it possible for me to shout OSAS from the housetops, proclaim it in the city streets (and in forums), with you et al saying just the opposite? Which one of us was NOT listening to the Holy Spirit? Hello? How can that happen? Does the Holy Spirit say something like, "Well, OK, you sorta got it right. Go ahead and go with that. I'll go read over the other guy's shoulder."

 

[Ginger]

Dok, It took me about 40 years to discern the voice of God from my personal fears and desires. I think that is part of the answer.

 

[gemma]

When a person has a genuine saving faith, then s/he is saved. If Christ sees that faith in His Eyes is true, then, yes, you are saved.

I just didn't like the other phrase.

 

[Panda]

Ban: I notice that you use "basically" and "versions." That leaves you some wiggle room, does it not?

Sorry, that's part of my personality. I'm quite phlegmatic, so I tend to avoid absolutes. So yes, I tend to use generalities a lot. We each have our own purpose, and mine isn't to challenge everyone's ideas, but to present my understanding. I'm not so arrogant as to believe that I can speak in absolutes, so I nearly always pad my reflections when I have the opportunity. The "original Christians" does not constitute a fourth version according to classical Theology because all three of the original versions trace back to the original Christians. It is more like a tree of progression.

 

[revlynn]

Does anyone ever win these debates? Pride blinds the eyes of the disobedient. If pride doesn't get them on once saved always saved, it gets them on pre-trib and they still become a false teacher. Or pride gets them on faith issues where they try to turn the rock to bread because nothing is impossible for god. Right is right and wrong is wrong. The war is not won until pride is gone. Satan is the father of all of the children of pride, yet Pastors stand up and tell us they are proud to be Christians. This is taking the glory for the free atonement of the blood. We should be thankful, not proud. Pride is lifted up by the world. Pride says look what I have done. Humility says look what Jesus has done for me.
Why does pride say once saved always saved? Because it gives us a freedom to sin and to approve others who sin.
Why does pride say there is a pre-tib rapture? Because it gives Christians an excuse not to study prophecy which is light that shines in a dark place.
Pride is rebellious and is born in the heart of a child. We are told that a rod of correction will drive it out. The world now tells us not to spank children. Why? Because the world is rebellious and proud and controlled by Satan, their father. He wants to stay strong in the children so they won't come to know Christ. Or if they do that they won't be able to stay with the program.
You will never convince the proud they are wrong. They have to be broken. Then they will either repent, if they are truly of God, or they will hate God and blame Him for their situation.
God will not force us to believe true doctrine. We have to chose it ahead of the reasons that pride tries to give us.
We were grafted in, and we can be grafted out to make way for a true branch to be grafted in.
It is for Christ to decide.
God tests the hearts and reigns of man. Many are brought in, tested and thrown out because they won't give up their pride.

Hi LambOfChrist.
I don't think pride is an issue when it comes to doctrinal matters. Personally, I don't believe in either OSAS or a pre-trib rapture, and I have engaged in some vigorous discussions on CFS on both issues, but I respect the fact that those who disagree with me are basing their arguments on their sincerely held understanding of the Word of God.

Obviously, if I believe one thing, I am going to disagree with those who believe the opposite. However, with the exception of those who adopt a "My understanding is the only understanding" type attitude, I don't see pride as being involved, either on their part or on mine. We are simply seeing the Word through different coloured glasses.

I strongly suspect that, when we stand together before the Throne of God, we will find that there were elements of truth in both views - for instance, whilst I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture, I do believe that God will keep His people through the disasters that are about to come upon the earth. I base this on the fact that God's people were protected through the worst of the plagues against Egypt, and on God's words to Baruch in Jeremiah 45, and on what I know of my heavenly Father. And, I figure that if God was able to keep His people safe, well, fed and clothed through 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, then He is well able to keep His people safe, well, fed and clothed through 7 years of the Great Tribulation (or 3 1/2 years, depending on which school you follow.)

blessings,

Lynn

 

[Rumely]

I dread having to footnote the words in my responses, but it seems that it may become necessary. "30,000" is like saying "I've heard that story a zillion times." Obviously, it means "a lot," or "over and over again." I'm sorry now that I used it without a footnote. Problem is, I don't know how to make that tiny little number above the word. I guess I could just type FOOTNOTE!!

I just use an asterisk, like they do in car ads where they define the terms of the financing.*

*Like this. Prices subject to certain limitations. Some exclusions may apply. Side effects include severe pain and pungent vapors.

 

[mistmann]

You're almost there, Misty. Keep working on it.

How very condescending of you. You still have not provided that authority I have asked for I note. But if I may ask do you believe Paul baptized people or not??

 

[mistmann]

No. Mistman is having problems understanding the scripture that I present.

Your posts are there for everybody to see for themselves the things you have said and declared. I will leave it to them to judge for themselves what you have been preaching.

 

[mistmann]

No. Mistman is having problems understanding the scripture that I present.

I hope you don't mind DOK. I noted from you profile that you have a website so in the interests of understanding more about where you are coming from I've been perusing it

I believe this quote from it will help here to clarify in everybodies mind what it is you are actually declaring which seems to be that from Acts 9 it is Paul and not the 12 Apostles that introduces a new teaching / gospel not previously taught by the 12 Apostles appointed by Christ to take HIS gospel to ALL the world. That somehow it is Paul that ushers in the New Covenant and then "teaches" it to the 12 who up until then were still teaching the Old Covenant.

From your website doktordoc.com

http://doktordoc.com/pb/wp_1fcfea63/wp_1fcfea63.html

"To rightly divide scripture, one has two views to examine: 1) the Hebrew Bible begins in Genesis 1:1 and ends over at the New Covenant, Acts 9. Thereafter, with some exceptions, Paul brought the message of salvation by grace through faith in the atoning death of Jesus Christ, and that becomes the Good News for the church, who would be called Christ-followers, or Christians"

Hopefully the issue has now been clarified.

 

[Ginger]

Apparently, Misty, you are interpreting the above quote much differently than I.

While I don't agree with everything Dok believes, I don't see the problem with the above quote. Perhaps you didn't quote quite enough to make it clear.

 

[gemma]

...While I don't agree with everything Dok believes, ....

Me too.

But I enjoy reading Misty's posts because we can also learn from him even if he is not certified nor ordained by men but I believe that he has gifts.

We have this built-in personalities or I'd prefer to say gifts that God endowed us with.

 

[gemma]

I am also in the same situation as Misty...What do the statements on Dok's site mean? LOL Please clarify, Dok!

 

[mistmann]

Apparently, Misty, you are interpreting the above quote much differently than I.

While I don't agree with everything Dok believes, I don't see the problem with the above quote. Perhaps you didn't quote quite enough to make it clear.

To get the full import of the multiple errors of the teaching you would have to go back over the things DOK has been posting here but basically what he is saying is that everything before Acts 9 ( and that includes the 4 gospels) applies to the Jews but after Acts 9 applies to "Christians" (by which he seems to imply non-Jewish believers). in short DOK is literally DIVIDING the scriptures at Acts 9 not OT/NT as everybody else does. But also dividing Jewish believers from Gentile believers contrary to even Paul's teachings. Among the things from DOK's site I have not quoted is an idea that the Jewish believers are to get an earthly kingdom for 1,000 years while us "gentile believers" get to go straight to the heavenly kingdom.

But the site contains a lot of rather strange interpretations that are difficult to decipher and unravel. To get the full "gist" of what DOK Is teaching you may need to go and work out for yourself.

I don't want this to turn into an " anti DOK" thing. I am just trying to keep things grounded in the actual words and teachings of the Bible itself which is why I am asking DOK for the Biblical authority by which he is declaring these things that are contrary to it.

We owe it to those here who may be new to the faith, seeking the truth, less confident in their faith or understanding of the scriptures, etc. to highlight any teachings that are not in accordance with the words of the Bible which must always remain the ultimate authority on the word, teachings, truth and commands of the Lord and of Jesus Christ. I am also concerned for DOK himself who seems to be genuine in his belief of these things but unaware that they are not actually in accordance with the word of God.

Basically all I am doing is trying to keep the word of God as the judge of what is the true and correct teaching.

 

[gemma]

......basically what he is saying is that everything before Acts 9 ( and that includes the 4 gospels) applies to the Jews but after Acts 9 applies to "Christians" (by which he seems to imply non-Jewish believers). in short DOK is literally DIVIDING the scriptures at Acts 9 not OT/NT as everybody else does. But also dividing Jewish believers from Gentile believers contrary to even Paul's teachings......

This is what I'm getting at, too.

Among the things from DOK's site I have not quoted is an idea that the Jewish believers are to get an earthly kingdom for 1,000 years while us "gentile believers" get to go straight to the heavenly kingdom........

I think I know what you're talking about, Misty.

Those remaining in the Tribulation will be the 1/3rd of the Jews who will flee to Petra in what is now Jordan. There they will remain safe until the end of Armageddon, at which time they will enter the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth, Jesus on the Throne of David, ruling through the 12 Tribes of Israel in Jerusalem, firmly establishing the Jews as the inheritors of their promised Messianic Kingdom. There won't be a Philistine, Arab, or Persian in sight. The Promised Land promise is completely, without exception, fulfilled. The Promised Land for the Jews will be right here on earth. We'll be happily involved in the rejoicing in Heaven. Yea!

 

[Ginger]

To get the full import of the multiple errors of the teaching you would have to go back over .......

Yeah, well that's not going to happen. lol I used to go through tons of writings, but I just don't have that much time to waste on human opinions and interpretations.

.......basically what he is saying is that everything before Acts 9 ( and that includes the 4 gospels) applies to the Jews but after Acts 9 applies to "Christians" (by which he seems to imply non-Jewish believers). in short DOK is literally DIVIDING the scriptures at Acts 9 not OT/NT as everybody else does. But also dividing Jewish believers from Gentile believers contrary to even Paul's teachings. Among the things from DOK's site I have not quoted is an idea that the Jewish believers are to get an earthly kingdom for 1,000 years while us "gentile believers" get to go straight to the heavenly kingdom.
.......

Well, I haven't read all the comments between the two of you, but what I have read, I interpreted very differently.....and I must admit I was lost in a couple places......

So, rather than spend hours searching and reading to try and figure it out by myself, I will ask:

DOK, is the above explanation a correct interpretation of what you are trying to say?

Ginger

 

[gemma]

LOL

 

[Dok]

Misty advances some correct theology and then torpedos it with erroneous conclusions. Rather than me point that out here, may I request that you visit my websites?

http://doktordoc.com and http://aeonity.com/dok . You can spend maybe 1/2 hour reading all of both sites, and reach you own conclusions.

I'm a little unhappy right now ~ ~ ~ I went to my sites just moments ago to find all the paragraphing, all the columns, gone! Bummer! I do not understand how that happens. My counter for the number of visitors, which also identified which country they were in, is also missing. Visitors were from Canada, Australia, Russia, Ethiopia, New Zealand ------ and others. I'm very pleased that they were able to tune in to "rightly dividing" scripture.

So now I am closing so that I can go repair the websites.