All people who have ever lived from the earth was created till the rapture
Or is it the number of those who were faithful to Christ?
Or is it the number of those who were faithful to Christ?
The 144,000 saved..is it referring to...
- Thread starter autumn oddity
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Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of
all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
2Cor 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation:
in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life,
but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed,
and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,
until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues,
stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me,
These are the true sayings of God.
The 144,000 is allegorical or figurative and represents the gathering in of the saints - the Pentecostal Spirit-filled Church, when Jesus returns in
power and glory with his angels - the saints both dead and living shall be transformed in the twinkling of an eye and rise up to meet our Lord
Jesus in the sky - the Marriage Feast - the Bride and the Bridegroom.
It is not an exact figure of simply 144,000 blessed souls who get special placement. But rather the figure represents the fullness and
completeness of the Church at the first resurrection. Both Jews and Christians. Both Old and New Testaments. (see Ezekiel 37)
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded
for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark
upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,
but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Neither. The last thing it is referring to is 144 000 special / faithful people to reign with Jesus. That suggestion brings about many questions of God. In His omniscience He invited all to be saved and reign with Him but knew it was limited to 144k. Why did John not say ''for God so loved the world that 144k will reign with Him as royal priests and the rest be stuck on earth or annihlated''? There are many more such questions we can ask of Jesus, Paul and the disciples. Why in the universe were they not clear to us on this? Maybe because it has absolutely nothing to do with us?
Every saved person is part of the '''Royal Priesthood''.
1 Pet 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.
To suggest some of us will be on earth and 144k reign... for me it shows a complete lack of understanding in what exactly the blood of Jesus was needed for / bought us. His blood bought us the greatest gift possible. A creation can be united with its God on a blood covenant basis. It is the devils goal to mock and confuse the cross. Dumb down what Jesus did / accomplished for mankind. The devil has managed to turn grace into religiosity with Jehovah witnesses.
I have one question for JW's....John was the greatest man ever born of woman according to Jesus. But yet whoever is least in the kingdom of God is greater then him Matt 11:11.
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Well it does say the way to heaven is narrow.. While the path to hell is broad .. It also says MANY are called but FEW are chosen..
Yes god desires everyone to be saved but many dont want it/reject him
Agreed. But all who are saved reign with Him. Making the biggest gripe that JW's believe some are fully saved and others half saved...? All who are saved are destined to be adopted sons and joint heirs Eph 1:5, Rom 8:17.
"And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:" Rev 7:4
Seems sort of obvious to me.
I've always wondered if this might be connected to Romans 11:26
"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;"
"All" Israel...not as in every Jewish person...but "all" in the sense of believers in all tribes that make up "Israel."
Just pondering if maybe Rev 7:4 is the fulfillment of Romans 11:26...maybe?
Seems sort of obvious to me.
I've always wondered if this might be connected to Romans 11:26
"And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;"
"All" Israel...not as in every Jewish person...but "all" in the sense of believers in all tribes that make up "Israel."
Just pondering if maybe Rev 7:4 is the fulfillment of Romans 11:26...maybe?
Yes, you are on track.
There are some rather fanciful and speculative postings here about 144,000 Jewish male virgins being a witness to
modern Israel (Judah) or to the rest of the world being blown away by a hypothetical 7 year tribulation.
But it is in my belief /understanding that the figure is allegorical and represents the gathering in of the complete Church to Jesus when he returns to gather the elect and to come into Jerusalem.
2Corinthians 1:
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Ephesians 1:
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God
in their foreheads.
Ezekiel 37:
19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim
[Britain & her offspring Australia, NZ, Canada U.S.A.], and the tribes of Israel his fellows [Europe], and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah [Jews], and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.
Revelation 21:
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon,
which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
That which was divided and separated - Israel and Judah - will now become complete and whole again -
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The term Christian, although used sparingly in the new testament, did not really gain traction until the end of the first century. In a biblical sense, I think there is no distinction between being a true Jew and a Christian. In the epistles of Paul, we find comments such as "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." - Rom 2:28,29. We see this same idea when Jesus says to the church of Philadelphia in Rev 3:9 "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
Paul further states: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.' In Gal 3:28 , James, who you can say was the "General Conference president", addresses his epistle to both Jews and Gentiles in James 1:1 as follows: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
The bible tells us that new covenant is only made with those who are of "Israel." "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jer 31:33. Paul establishes that this text is referring to all believers when he quotes it in Hebrews 10:16.
Therefore in light of these text and many others not mentioned, while trying to avoid all human constructs, I believe those described in Rev 7:5 are simply Christians (not literal Jews) that are alive and sealed just before the time of Christ second coming.
Finally, when you consider Jews today, hardly any "Jew" can trace their lineage to the 12 tribes of Israel. The meticulous tracking of lineage that the Jews were known for in biblical times ended (probably in 70 A.D.) Many who are known as Jews come by way of conversion. There is even controversy over how to tell if someone is of modern Jewish descent. I would encourage you to research the historical roots of the Zionist movement, which orthodox Jews resisted from the onset.
Blessings,
MoG
Paul further states: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.' In Gal 3:28 , James, who you can say was the "General Conference president", addresses his epistle to both Jews and Gentiles in James 1:1 as follows: "James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting."
The bible tells us that new covenant is only made with those who are of "Israel." "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jer 31:33. Paul establishes that this text is referring to all believers when he quotes it in Hebrews 10:16.
Therefore in light of these text and many others not mentioned, while trying to avoid all human constructs, I believe those described in Rev 7:5 are simply Christians (not literal Jews) that are alive and sealed just before the time of Christ second coming.
Finally, when you consider Jews today, hardly any "Jew" can trace their lineage to the 12 tribes of Israel. The meticulous tracking of lineage that the Jews were known for in biblical times ended (probably in 70 A.D.) Many who are known as Jews come by way of conversion. There is even controversy over how to tell if someone is of modern Jewish descent. I would encourage you to research the historical roots of the Zionist movement, which orthodox Jews resisted from the onset.
Blessings,
MoG
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You are exactly rt!!
Does Paul contradicts himself later in Romans chapters 10-11 when he begins referring to Israel??? 
(I know he doesn't 
.)
Through out Romans (and other NT books) he refers to Jews (Israel) and Gentiles (Greeks) separately...so I think you might out to look at the context in which he said that. I also seem to recall that Christ went to the Jews first and primarily....Gentiles were grafted in...which I believe is also in Romans. Salvation is only in Christ...but there does appear to be plan as far as time and order is concerned. Yes, Jews and Gentiles are equally redeemed and saved in Christ, but that does not eliminate the Biblically recognized distinction between the two. As far as salvation is concerned there is no distinction between the two. Both groups are saved in and through Christ alone...but it appears the Lord has a plan as far as the timing is concerned for the group...the people group...the Jews...Israel.
He also said in Galatians 3:28 that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor male nor female...but he didn't mean there weren't literal Jews and Gentiles, and men and women. The he goes on in chapter three to speak about the "advantage" the Jew has...meaning there is a historical, theological and literal distinction between Jews and Gentiles. In chapter 9 he begins speaking about Israel his "countrymen," (not "spiritual Israel") and this remains unbroken all the way through chapter 11 where he asks if God has cast away this very same Israel...answering himself by saying God forbid...certainly not!
One may close their eyes and pretend it isn't there to accommodate a certain theology that God no longer recognizes a people group known as Israel...a people group that is presently populated by non-believers in their own Messiah. However, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable...He isn't through with them. No, not every single Gentile will be saved....and not every single Jew will be saved either...but all "Israel" (the elect from within all the tribes which collectively make up "Israel') will be.
Since that passage in Revelation very, very specifically mentions the tribes of Israel, it is not Biblically logical to ignore that and spin another meaning out of it that has nothing to do with the context. That does nothing but establish a pattern to make a passage say anything we want it to say to fit in with a theology we already have and are comfortable with. And saying that most Jewish people do not know what tribe they are from is not relevant either. Their Creator knows. There are today Jews of Israel coming to faith in Christ who do not know what tribe they are from, but that does not prevent them from being called, granted repentance and being saved.
(I know he doesn't .)Through out Romans (and other NT books) he refers to Jews (Israel) and Gentiles (Greeks) separately...so I think you might out to look at the context in which he said that. I also seem to recall that Christ went to the Jews first and primarily....Gentiles were grafted in...which I believe is also in Romans. Salvation is only in Christ...but there does appear to be plan as far as time and order is concerned. Yes, Jews and Gentiles are equally redeemed and saved in Christ, but that does not eliminate the Biblically recognized distinction between the two. As far as salvation is concerned there is no distinction between the two. Both groups are saved in and through Christ alone...but it appears the Lord has a plan as far as the timing is concerned for the group...the people group...the Jews...Israel.
He also said in Galatians 3:28 that in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile, nor male nor female...but he didn't mean there weren't literal Jews and Gentiles, and men and women. The he goes on in chapter three to speak about the "advantage" the Jew has...meaning there is a historical, theological and literal distinction between Jews and Gentiles. In chapter 9 he begins speaking about Israel his "countrymen," (not "spiritual Israel") and this remains unbroken all the way through chapter 11 where he asks if God has cast away this very same Israel...answering himself by saying God forbid...certainly not!
One may close their eyes and pretend it isn't there to accommodate a certain theology that God no longer recognizes a people group known as Israel...a people group that is presently populated by non-believers in their own Messiah. However, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable...He isn't through with them. No, not every single Gentile will be saved....and not every single Jew will be saved either...but all "Israel" (the elect from within all the tribes which collectively make up "Israel') will be.
Since that passage in Revelation very, very specifically mentions the tribes of Israel, it is not Biblically logical to ignore that and spin another meaning out of it that has nothing to do with the context. That does nothing but establish a pattern to make a passage say anything we want it to say to fit in with a theology we already have and are comfortable with. And saying that most Jewish people do not know what tribe they are from is not relevant either. Their Creator knows. There are today Jews of Israel coming to faith in Christ who do not know what tribe they are from, but that does not prevent them from being called, granted repentance and being saved.
Does Paul contradicts himself later in Romans chapters 10-11 when he begins referring to Israel???
Through out Romans (and other NT books) he refers to Jews (Israel) and Gentiles (Greeks) separately...so I think you might out to look at the context in which he said that. I also seem to recall that Christ went to the Jews first and primarily....Gentiles were grafted in...which I believe is also in Romans. Salvation is only in Christ...but there does appear to be plan as far as time and order is concerned. Yes, Jews and Gentiles are equally redeemed and saved in Christ, but that does not eliminate the Biblically recognized distinction between the two.
I take it this is addressed to me. To take a verse out of context is to say it I applied a meaning to it that was not relevant to the passage it was extracted from. Therefore, I am going to kindly ask you to prove this accusation, perhaps by clarifying the context of a passage and then showing how it was that a verse I quoted was taken out of it's context.
I do not argue that the bible does not make a distinction between the Jews and Gentiles. What I argue is that there is no distinction between being a TRUE Jew and Christian. To be truly a Jew is to be truly a Christian. The parable of the the grafted branches (that you brought up) is a perfect example because the literal Jews were supposed to remain connected to the vine (Jesus) by faith (Acts 11:20). Under the unction of the Holy Spirit, Paul takes a page from the old testament and Jesus words in John 15 when he teaches this object lesson. Let's briefly dissect this verse:
Acts 11:20 " Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:"
Why were the they (the literal Jews) broken off?
"because of unbelief they were broken off"
And how are the gentiles grafted in?
"and thou standest by faith"
If the Jews lost their connection by being faithless, how were they ever connected in the first place? Is it not by faith? It was indeed faith for it has never ever been that Jews were saved by there lineage but only by faith--from Genesis to Revelation. It was only by faith that a Jew could be said to be truly a Jew, just as it is by faith that a Christian can only be truly Christian. He can profess by name to be Christian and he will be recognized by the world as such but in the books of heaven it will be a different story if he has not a living faith. This is why John the baptist would say in Matt 3:9 "And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Therefore, we can say Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Jospeh, Moses, Samuel, Samson... David etc.. were as truly a Jew as they were truly a Christian. Of David, Jesus says he was a "man after His own heart." Of Moses, Jesus says that he wrote about Him.
Just like James 1:1 very very specifically mentions the tribes of Israel. Yet James audience in that letter is not the literal tribe of Israel. Over 30% of revelation are quotes taken directly from the old testament, one must have spiritual discernment to understand Rev 7 and Rev 14. In terms of not knowing what tribe they are from, it is deeper then that. The implication is that it is highly unlikely that a pure Jewish lineage from biblical times exist today. Especially when you include intermingling and "converted Jews". Of course we can say all things are possible with God, but before doing that it would first be best to see if we are interpreting correctly was God is saying in the first place.
Blessings my friend
and with love,
MoG.
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p.s. the distinction Paul brings out has always been between Jews and Gentiles, not Jews and Christians, unless referring to temporal things for the sake of clarifying a point.
No argument that it has always been about faith...period...and there has always been (and continues to be) a remnant within the people group of the Jews/Israel...just as the Scriptures says there will be. While there is the mystery of the predestined purpose and election of God, as it also involves the responsibility of the people who are called upon to respond and believe...I believe the faithfulness of God Himself is being highlighted.
G'day Waggles,
I must say I'm a little intrigued as to why you posted the above vid.
It is interesting to say the least.
I noted that they speak in a similar way to muslems..eg "and Moses (may he be blessed forever), said.........."
But one thing for sure, that lad's account does not glorify Christ Jesus, so I'm thinking that with these exotic experiences, one sees and hears things within the framework of their cultural/belief systems. That is to say, that the Jewish boy experienced things in a Jewish context...Torah etc. Perhaps a Muslim would have experienced sights and sounds in a Muslim context...Q'ran, Mohammad etc. While a Christian might well have seen and heard maybe angels even apostles talking about Jesus.
Well, that is my rant, but I'm still puzzled as to why you posted it?
Well, if you think about it, people have always done that.
As far as viewing Jesus from a Jewish perspective (when taking it from the Hebrew Scriptures) I don't think that is totally wrong. Jesus was Jewish, sent to the Jews, born of the Jews, of the tribe of Judah. Born Jewish, raised Jewish, He preached and taught 1st century Jews and His disciples were Jewish...He fulfilled the law and the Hebrew Scriptures. So, if you think about, that's not really that "off."
But when the Gentiles got involved, Jesus became "westernized," and western/Gentile thought and philosophy got involved.
And since then every culture has applied its own views and philosophy upon Him.
As far as viewing Jesus from a Jewish perspective (when taking it from the Hebrew Scriptures) I don't think that is totally wrong. Jesus was Jewish, sent to the Jews, born of the Jews, of the tribe of Judah. Born Jewish, raised Jewish, He preached and taught 1st century Jews and His disciples were Jewish...He fulfilled the law and the Hebrew Scriptures. So, if you think about, that's not really that "off."
But when the Gentiles got involved, Jesus became "westernized," and western/Gentile thought and philosophy got involved.
And since then every culture has applied its own views and philosophy upon Him.
If this was addressed to me,.....well, thank you for your reply.
I agree, however this Jewish lad did not do this.
My thinking runs along the lines of ::
Acts 2:15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.
Acts 2:16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:
Acts 2:17 "'And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams;
Acts 2:18 even on my male servants and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.
When the Spirit of the Lord is poured out, there will be one end point in view.... To bring glory to Christ Jesus.
If this was evident in that boy's testimony, then I missed it!
Santa's sack is always filled with goodies, whereas the Antichrist's sack is filled with all sorts of lying wonders.
Yes, you are on track.
If there were to be only 144k 'male virgins, then what of all the myriads of saints whose sins are washed away by the blood of Jesus?
Now if I have defiled myself with women, and that condition stands as being true for all eternity then the blood of Jesus has been of no benefit at all!
Isa 1:18 "Come now, let us reason together, says the LORD: though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson, they shall become like wool.
Sounds like the description of the 14k to me.
No, it seems crystal clear to me that the 144k is representative of completeness, ....not a small part, incomplete., because
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
These are the saints of God....these are Israel......They are not gentiles trampling the outer courts of the Temple.
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Just think, someday we'll all be seeing and saying "Ohhhh, so THAT'S what it meant!" 