I agree.
Also, the Dead Sea is the worlds most prolific place for "POTASH". It is the reason why you can not drown in the Dead Sea. You float on the surface. Potash is the main ingredient in gunpowder and FERTILIZER.
The 144,000 saved..is it referring to...
- Thread starter autumn oddity
- Start date
I agree.
Also, the Dead Sea is the worlds most prolific place for "POTASH". It is the reason why you can not drown in the Dead Sea. You float on the surface. Potash is the main ingredient in gunpowder and FERTILIZER.
Nothing wrong with disagreement
. Out of curiosity, what verses lend itself to the idea that they will be male virgins? I heard that before but I haven't dug into it.Nothing wrong with disagreement
Certainly.
Rev. 14:3-4...........
"They sang as it were a new song before the throne, before the four living creatures, and the elders; and no one could learn that song except the hundred and forty-four thousand who were redeemed from the earth. These are the ones who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. "
These appear to have never been married and never been intimate with a woman. There are those that disagree with this and some consider the virginity mentioned here is not of a sexual nature but is referring to spiritual purity.
However, I believe that the fact that women are mentioned, in connection with this, indicates this means exactly what it says. THESE ARE THEY WHICH FOLLOW THE LAMB (which is Jesus) WHITHERSOEVER HE GOETH. THESE WERE REDEEMED (or ransomed, or purchased) FROM AMONG MEN (or humanity), BEING (offered as) THE FIRSTFRUITS UNTO GOD (or as firstfruits for God) AND TO THE LAMB (or Jesus).
I am one who believes this signifies that they were originally the first to be saved after the Rapture.
Consider that in an age when cursing and blaspheming God is commonplace, it is interesting to note in this verse, AND IN THEIR MOUTH WAS FOUND NO GUILE (or lie): FOR THEY ARE WITHOUT FAULT (or defect, or blameless) BEFORE THE THRONE OF GOD.
I am also one who believes that these 144,000 are probably alive right now in Israel. Many of them may be orthodox Jews in the Holy Land today. Though they are zealous for God, at this time, BLINDNESS IN PART IS HAPPENED TO ISRAEL-Ro 11:25.
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It seems to me that dispensationlism is more of a human construct and less a biblical one (not trying to offend, just my take on it). What I mean by that is I do not see any scriptural support for the dispensationalist application of interpretation. For example, I exclusively subscribe to the historical grammatical method (which dispensationalist do as well to a degree) of interpretation from Genesis to Revelation, which if followed correctly, naturally leads to the historicist method of interpreting Revelation. I believe there is scriptural supports this method of interpretation. I will list fifteen principals and there scriptural support.
I. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible. Proof; Matt. 5.18. [see also Rev. 22:18, 19. Matt. 4:4. Deut. 4:2. Prov. 30:5, 6. Rom. 15:4. I Cor. 10:11, 12].
II. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by a diligent application and study. Proof; 2 Tim. 3:15-17. [see also Heb. 11:6. Jer. 29:10-14; 33:3. Isa. 55:6, 7].
III. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering. Proof; Deut. 29:29. Matt. 10:26, 27. 1 Cor. 2:10. Phil. 3:15. Isa. 45:11. Matt. 21:22. John 14:13, 14; 15:7. James 1:5, 6. 1 John 5:13-15.
IV. To understand doctrine, bring all the Scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form you theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error. Proof; Isa. 28:7-29; 35:8. Prov. 19:27. Luke 24:27, 44, 45. Rom. 16:26. Jms. 5:19. 2 Pet. 1:19, 20. [see also John 7:16, 17].
V. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed or wisdom, is my rule, and not the Bible. Proof; Ps. 19:7-11; 119:97-105. Mat. 23:8-10. 1 Cor. 2:12-16. Ezk. 34:18, 19. Luke 11:52. Matt. 2:7, 8. [see also Jer. 17:5-7. I Jn. 4:1; Jn. 7:24. I Thess. 5:19-21; II Thess. 2:1-13. Mt. 24:4,5, 23,24. Isa. 8:20].
VI. God has revealed things to come, by visions, in figures and parables; and in this way the same things are oftentimes revealed again and again, by different visions, or in different figures and parables. If you wish to understand them, you must combine them all in one. Proof; Ps. 89:19. Hos. 12:10. Hab. 2:2. Acts 2:17. 1 Cor. 10:6. Heb. 9:9, 24. Ps. 68:2. Matt. 13:13, 34. Gen. 41:1-32. Dan. 2, 7 and 8. Acts 10:9-16.
VII. Visions are always mentioned as such. 2 Cor. 12:1.
VIII. Figures always have a figurative meaning, and are used much in prophecy to represent
IX. Parables are used as comparisons to illustrate subjects, and must be explained in the same way as figures, by the subject and Bible. Mark 4:13.
X. Figures sometimes have two or more different significations, as day is used in a figurative
XI. If a word makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to the simple laws of nature, it is to be understood literally; if not, figuratively. Rev. 12:1, 2; 17:3-7.
XII. To learn the meaning of a figure, trace the word through your Bible, and when you find
XIII. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy; If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event; but if one word lacks a fulfillment then you must look for another event, or wait its future development; for God takes care that history and prophecy shall agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed. Ps. 22:5. Isa. 45:17-19. I Pet. 2:6. Rev. 17:17. Acts 3:18.
XIV.
But as wiki points out, "Dispensationalism is an evangelical futurist interpretive system for the Bible. " What I am wondering is, where is the scriptural justification of studying the bible after this fashion?
I am not sure about your idea concerning the land, The promise was made to Abraham AND his seed, yet even Abraham nor did Isaac inherit the Land, since they died way before Israel took possession of the literal land. As Paul writes, "now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. " - Gal 3:16. In Heb 11:9-10 he writes "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." This sound like what we call heaven to me.
p.s. The seed in that promise by the way represents Christ Himself. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Gal 3:16
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Ahh that makes sense. However, is it possible, since this is dealing with the last days, to be defiled with women is to commit spiritual adultery? And could it be that spiritual adultery is done with the same woman and her daughters, found in Rev 17:2 where it says "... the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication." And could it be that the only ones not defiled with women are those who refuse to conform with the world and the apostates who engage in that fornication? And could it be these people who refuse will be known as the 144000 of Israel, that is to say a true Christians who will suffer persecution as a result of their steadfastness?
That has been my take on it. Hence the parable of the 10 virgins found in Matt 25.
Blessing,
MoG
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Major, looking at the emphasis you have placed on the 'not defiled with women' and then your follow up comment that these people have never been married and never been intimate women.
Surly marrying a woman ( for a man at least) is a holy and God ordained thing!
How can you arrive at the idea that marrying is a defilement and hence an abhorrence to the Lord?
Adultery, fornication...yeah sure, But Holy Matrimony?
Interesting reading everyone's thoughts in this thread.
Your thread has proved to be interesting to follow through. I hope you have found it to be so.
In Revelation chapter 7:1-8, the 'sealing' of the 144,000 takes place, and in Revelation 14:1-5, we see a vision of this company with the Lamb upon mount Zion.
What is written is clear and plain, all we are called upon to do is believe what it says, for it needs no further explanation.
* ... take a look at, Revelation 9:4, and Ezekiel 9:4-6.
With love in Christ Jesus,
Chris
Hi @pancakes,
Your thread has proved to be interesting to follow through. I hope you have found it to be so.
In Revelation chapter 7:1-8, the 'sealing' of the 144,000 takes place, and in Revelation 14:1-5, we see a vision of this company with the Lamb upon mount Zion.
What is written is clear and plain, all we are called upon to do is believe what it says, for it needs no further explanation.
* ... take a look at, Revelation 9:4, and Ezekiel 9:4-6.
With love in Christ Jesus,
Chris
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Well I believe you would need to read a gap into the narrative that just is not there. The gap if there is one would seem to be between the angels being restrained (V3) and John's vision of the 144k (4), because the 144k have now been sealed when John sees them, so there is a period in between when the actual sealing takes place.
Now in my understanding, to differentiate between the 'righteousness' of the 144k and the righteousness of the numberless crowd requires a differentiation between the cleansing power of the shed blood of Christ....(no can do).
No matter how virtuous these 144k might be, they are still sinners in need of Christ's forgiveness, and a washing clean by His blood just the same as you and I.
Recall :
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Now, if, as Paul teaches, we are grafted into the 'vine' then we must be members of (an assigned) house of Israel. and while there must remain sovereign election, we are still nonetheless no less righteous than the 144k. But hold up a bit....notice in Ch 7 V3 it is servants of God who are to be sealed and further notice that in V15, these people are servants of God....Why is it so difficult to accept the comforting fact that John was shown the completeness of God's salvation, both symbolically and literally.
Imagine what manner of uncertainty could exist if there was only 144k people marked out as servants. What about the rest of us?
Now consider in speaking of these 144k,
Rev 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
But Paul, speaking of people of his own time, not some future post tribulation time,says this :
2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
How can these believers be firstfruits if the 144k are Jews of some future time are firstfruits also?
,And I saw,
and behold the Lamb,
standing upon Mount Zion,
and with Him
an hundred and forty-four thousand,
having His name
and His Father's name
written upon their foreheads.'
(Revelation 14:1)
This was the promise made to the Overcomers in Revelation 3:12; and the seal of Revelation 7:3.
Here they stand unscathed by the horrific conflict of the great tribulation, The 'sealing' having achieved it's goal, as is the case with all of God's providential care. Praise His Name!
This vision takes place in heaven. It is the heavenly, 'Zion', which is being referred to. He (the Lamb) is not yet descended to the earth.
This is a comparitively small company, being the, 'Fiirstfruits', for the harvest is yet to come. The harvest is a much larger company, as witnessed in Revelation 7:9-17 and Revelation 15.
Praise God!
His purposes will be accomplished.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
and behold the Lamb,
standing upon Mount Zion,
and with Him
an hundred and forty-four thousand,
having His name
and His Father's name
written upon their foreheads.'
(Revelation 14:1)
This was the promise made to the Overcomers in Revelation 3:12; and the seal of Revelation 7:3.
Here they stand unscathed by the horrific conflict of the great tribulation, The 'sealing' having achieved it's goal, as is the case with all of God's providential care. Praise His Name!
This vision takes place in heaven. It is the heavenly, 'Zion', which is being referred to. He (the Lamb) is not yet descended to the earth.
This is a comparitively small company, being the, 'Fiirstfruits', for the harvest is yet to come. The harvest is a much larger company, as witnessed in Revelation 7:9-17 and Revelation 15.
Praise God!
His purposes will be accomplished.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Sorry, there is a bit of a muddle between ch 7 and ch 14...but we should all be able to work it out
Because they are "Parenthetical".
Well I believe you would need to read a gap into the narrative that just is not there. The gap if there is one would seem to be between the angels being restrained (V3) and John's vision of the 144k (4), because the 144k have now been sealed when John sees them, so there is a period in between when the actual sealing takes place.
Now in my understanding, to differentiate between the 'righteousness' of the 144k and the righteousness of the numberless crowd requires a differentiation between the cleansing power of the shed blood of Christ....(no can do).
No matter how virtuous these 144k might be, they are still sinners in need of Christ's forgiveness, and a washing clean by His blood just the same as you and I.
Recall :
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Now, if, as Paul teaches, we are grafted into the 'vine' then we must be members of (an assigned) house of Israel. and while there must remain sovereign election, we are still nonetheless no less righteous than the 144k. But hold up a bit....notice in Ch 7 V3 it is servants of God who are to be sealed and further notice that in V15, these people are servants of God....Why is it so difficult to accept the comforting fact that John was shown the completeness of God's salvation, both symbolically and literally.
Imagine what manner of uncertainty could exist if there was only 144k people marked out as servants. What about the rest of us?
Now consider in speaking of these 144k,
Rev 14:4 It is these who have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. It is these who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These have been redeemed from mankind as firstfruits for God and the Lamb,
But Paul, speaking of people of his own time, not some future post tribulation time,says this :
2Th 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
How can these believers be firstfruits if the 144k are Jews of some future time are firstfruits also?
You said...........
"Imagine what manner of uncertainty could exist if there was only 144k people marked out as servants. What about the rest of us?"
Isn't that the JW's doctrine????
It is the fact that the church is removed at the Rapture and God begins to deal with Israel.
I do not know exactly how the 144K will be saved but yes, they must come to and accept the shed blood of Christ to be saved. It may be that they will come to Christ through the preaching of the 2 witnesses from Jerusalem.
My comment was..........
"These appear to have never been married and never been intimate with a woman".
I was not suggesting that marriage was a defilement. IF one was married that IMO would mean that they had had sexual relations and would no longer be a virgin hence they would not qualify as one of the 144K.
I would say that Rev. 14:1 is an earthly scene and not a heavenly one. "Mount Zion" is at Jerusalem. IMO, this is where Jesus rules from and that is why we think differently on the location.
Psalms 2:6......
"Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion".
I believe the 144K to be the same ones who were sealed back in chapter 7. They came through the tribulation like as the 3 Hebrew children in the furnance.
Hello @Major,
I agree that the 144,000 are the same ones who were sealed in chapter 7, and that they came through the tribulation.
Mount Zion is at Jerusalem, yes, but Galatians 4:26 speaks of the 'Jerusalem which is above' too. The vision is in heaven; for the singers stand before the Throne, and they are with the Lamb. He is not yet descended to the earth. This decides the point that it is the heavenly Zion which is referred to here. The Temple on Earth was close to Mount Zion; so the Temple in heaven is correspondingly near to the heavenly Zion.
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Well, we are going to be in disagreement on this particular thing, and that is OK as many think just as you do. I am no authority on this!!!
Gal. 4:26 is speaking of the New Jerusalem in Rev. 20 which will be the home of the Bride.
Myself being a "literalist" accepts the Scriptures as they are printed. I personally do not see a reason to spiritualize the words.
I would however say that IMO Rev. 17:2 says that there will be an unholy alliance between the church left after the Rapture and government which will be controlled by the A/C thus comfirms Rev. 13 where the 2 beasts are see working together, one as a political leader and one as a religious leader.
It seems to me that dispensationlism is more of a human construct and less a biblical one (not trying to offend, just my take on it). What I mean by that is I do not see any scriptural support for the dispensationalist application of interpretation. For example, I exclusively subscribe to the historical grammatical method (which dispensationalist do as well to a degree) of interpretation from Genesis to Revelation, which if followed correctly, naturally leads to the historicist method of interpreting Revelation. I believe there is scriptural supports this method of interpretation. I will list fifteen principals and there scriptural support.
I. Every word must have its proper bearing on the subject presented in the Bible. Proof; Matt. 5.18. [see also Rev. 22:18, 19. Matt. 4:4. Deut. 4:2. Prov. 30:5, 6. Rom. 15:4. I Cor. 10:11, 12].
II. All Scripture is necessary, and may be understood by a diligent application and study. Proof; 2 Tim. 3:15-17. [see also Heb. 11:6. Jer. 29:10-14; 33:3. Isa. 55:6, 7].
III. Nothing revealed in Scripture can or will be hid from those who ask in faith, not wavering. Proof; Deut. 29:29. Matt. 10:26, 27. 1 Cor. 2:10. Phil. 3:15. Isa. 45:11. Matt. 21:22. John 14:13, 14; 15:7. James 1:5, 6. 1 John 5:13-15.
IV. To understand doctrine, bring all the Scriptures together on the subject you wish to know; then let every word have its proper influence; and if you can form you theory without a contradiction, you cannot be in error. Proof; Isa. 28:7-29; 35:8. Prov. 19:27. Luke 24:27, 44, 45. Rom. 16:26. Jms. 5:19. 2 Pet. 1:19, 20. [see also John 7:16, 17].
V. Scripture must be its own expositor, since it is a rule of itself. If I depend on a teacher to expound to me, and he should guess at its meaning, or desire to have it so on account of his sectarian creed, or to be thought wise, then his guessing, desire, creed or wisdom, is my rule, and not the Bible. Proof; Ps. 19:7-11; 119:97-105. Mat. 23:8-10. 1 Cor. 2:12-16. Ezk. 34:18, 19. Luke 11:52. Matt. 2:7, 8. [see also Jer. 17:5-7. I Jn. 4:1; Jn. 7:24. I Thess. 5:19-21; II Thess. 2:1-13. Mt. 24:4,5, 23,24. Isa. 8:20].
VI. God has revealed things to come, by visions, in figures and parables; and in this way the same things are oftentimes revealed again and again, by different visions, or in different figures and parables. If you wish to understand them, you must combine them all in one. Proof; Ps. 89:19. Hos. 12:10. Hab. 2:2. Acts 2:17. 1 Cor. 10:6. Heb. 9:9, 24. Ps. 68:2. Matt. 13:13, 34. Gen. 41:1-32. Dan. 2, 7 and 8. Acts 10:9-16.
VII. Visions are always mentioned as such. 2 Cor. 12:1.
VIII. Figures always have a figurative meaning, and are used much in prophecy to representfuture things, times and events,-- such as mountains, meaning governments, Dan. 2:35, 44; beasts, meaning kingdoms, Dan. 7:8, 17; waters, meaning people, Rev. 17:1, 15; day, meaning year, etc., Ezk. 4:6. [see also Num. 14:34].
IX. Parables are used as comparisons to illustrate subjects, and must be explained in the same way as figures, by the subject and Bible. Mark 4:13.
X. Figures sometimes have two or more different significations, as day is used in a figurativesense to represent three different periods of time, namely, first, indefinite, Eccles. 7:14; second, definite, a day for a year, Ezk. 4:6, and third a day for a thousand years, I Pet. 3:8.
The right construction will harmonize with the Bible, and make good sense; other constructions will not.
XI. If a word makes good sense as it stands, and does no violence to the simple laws of nature, it is to be understood literally; if not, figuratively. Rev. 12:1, 2; 17:3-7.
XII. To learn the meaning of a figure, trace the word through your Bible, and when you findit explained, substitute the explanation for the word used; and, if it makes good sense, you need not look further; if not, look again.
XIII. To know whether we have the true historical event for the fulfillment of a prophecy; If you find every word of the prophecy (after the figures are understood) is literally fulfilled, then you may know that your history is the true event; but if one word lacks a fulfillment then you must look for another event, or wait its future development; for God takes care that history and prophecy shall agree, so that the true believing children of God may never be ashamed. Ps. 22:5. Isa. 45:17-19. I Pet. 2:6. Rev. 17:17. Acts 3:18.
XIV.The most important rule of all is, that you must have faith. It must be a faith that requires a sacrifice, and if tried, would give up the dearest object on earth, the world and all its desires,--character, living, occupation, family, home, comfort, and worldly honors. If any of them should hinder our believing any part of God's word, it would show our faith to be vain. Nor can we ever believe so long as any of these motives lies lurking in our hearts. We must believe that God will never forfeit His word; and we can have confidence that He who takes notice of the sparrow's fall, and numbers the hairs of our head, will guard the translation of His own word, and throw a barrier around it, and prevent those who sincerely trust in God, and put implicit confidence in His word, from erring far from the truth. [Heb.11:6. Rom.14:23. Jms.2:26. Jn.7:16,17. Mt.7:21].
But as wiki points out, "Dispensationalism is an evangelical futurist interpretive system for the Bible. " What I am wondering is, where is the scriptural justification of studying the bible after this fashion?
I am not sure about your idea concerning the land, The promise was made to Abraham AND his seed, yet even Abraham nor did Isaac inherit the Land, since they died way before Israel took possession of the literal land. As Paul writes, "now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. " - Gal 3:16. In Heb 11:9-10 he writes "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God." This sound like what we call heaven to me.
p.s. The seed in that promise by the way represents Christ Himself. "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." - Gal 3:16
Absolutely correct. Dispensation is a man made teaching and not one coming from the Bible. Dispensationalism is a system of understand Biblical theology.
Throughout the thousands of years of human history God has been revealing His truth to men. We must understand that God reveals His truth to men gradually and not all at once. God revealed certain things to Adam, but there were many things that God did not reveal to him. Later God revealed even more things to Abraham. Later in history God revealed even more things to Moses and to David. When Jesus walked this earth He revealed certain things to His disciples which had never been revealed to Old Testament believers. Hence the reason why periods of time are broken into "Dispensations.
Okay Major, thanks for the clarification.
I have always had trouble with the the idea of men being classed as 'virgins' in a physical sense.....we lack certain physical attributes.
So, I always understand 'male virgin' in a non physical sense......simply......... 'innocence'. Is this not what the Scriptures say?
Thanks to our being washed clean with the blood of the lamb, are we not now innocent of all wrong doing?
However, Rev 14:4 does use the word 'virgin in connection with men. Okay, so looking at some of what Thayer's dictionary says of the word,
:
"2) a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity"
If that is more or less what the original recipients of John's writing would have understood, then so ought we.
I'm asking as it were, why, if sexual intercourse /desire was the sole criteria would they not simply have been called eunuchs?
Mat 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."
What might be understood by 'eunuch'?
1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage
It seems that a narrow reading of Rev 14 would really mean eunuchs, but speaking in terms of virginity seems most likely to embrace a much wider....a sort of global purity that can only be obtained through the blood of Christ.
So, we might say that a Eunuch's righteousness comes by works, whereas a male virgin's righteousness is by the grace of God.
And that, you and I have thanks to the shed blood of Christ.
Well that is as I see it.
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