I worked this song in collaboration with a female group with the illustration in my mind of how we fall so hard when doing things on our own effort, and therefore the need to "gear up" with what's far more powerful than our own puny strength.
Order of Events in the Gathering?
- Thread starter Musicmaster
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Speaking to the OP the modern Sunday school (the one that is not just a literary exercise learning reading and writing so kids could read and understand the Bible - but the one which replaces catechizing children) is a modern invention that many protestants were against because it threatened to replace the responsibility parents had to catechize their children.
Which it now has. I think this is a decided flaw as Christian parents have handed over this responsibility to the church and it's lacking, raising up kids who don't understand basic biblical truths and how to apply them to daily life, and parents who don't know them either.
see also, serious societal failings which handily coincides. Modern SS began around 1940's - 50's so pretty much as soon as parents handed over the responsibility to the local church, society began freefalling in moral decline. God gave this responsibility to parents for a reason, and it's no longer occurring, not in the way it once did.
It used to be parents catechized, and kids - of all ages - sat with their parents during services, asking questions of their parents at home if needed. It's a model that works and caused growth in overall for a very long time.
Its strange but a story came out of Iraq during the rise of Da'esh about a family of Christians, parents and children, who were offered the opportunity to recite the shahada and live or refuse and die. The parents recited the shahada but the children refused - and died for it.
That really touched me so much... that those children would die rather than say shahada. But even though the parents hadn't the fortitude in their hour of trial they taught their children Scripture, and those children understood the stakes that day.
I'll not forget the lesson those children taught me.
Would American children who were the product of happy happy joy joy Sunday schools? I wonder...
Anyway... just my thoughts on that... lol
Which it now has. I think this is a decided flaw as Christian parents have handed over this responsibility to the church and it's lacking, raising up kids who don't understand basic biblical truths and how to apply them to daily life, and parents who don't know them either.
see also, serious societal failings which handily coincides. Modern SS began around 1940's - 50's so pretty much as soon as parents handed over the responsibility to the local church, society began freefalling in moral decline. God gave this responsibility to parents for a reason, and it's no longer occurring, not in the way it once did.
It used to be parents catechized, and kids - of all ages - sat with their parents during services, asking questions of their parents at home if needed. It's a model that works and caused growth in overall for a very long time.
Its strange but a story came out of Iraq during the rise of Da'esh about a family of Christians, parents and children, who were offered the opportunity to recite the shahada and live or refuse and die. The parents recited the shahada but the children refused - and died for it.
That really touched me so much... that those children would die rather than say shahada. But even though the parents hadn't the fortitude in their hour of trial they taught their children Scripture, and those children understood the stakes that day.
I'll not forget the lesson those children taught me.
Would American children who were the product of happy happy joy joy Sunday schools? I wonder...
Anyway... just my thoughts on that... lol
If only more people understood this, and the need for parents to be...parents. Bottom line is that all parents will be held responsible for how they raised (or didn't raise) the children the Lord entrusted to them.
Excellent post, C1.
MM
Speaking anecdotally, I recall my one time visit to Sunday School around the age of 4. The flannel board story had something to do with a little boy planting seeds, then (praying?), then hauling off a wheel barrow of carrots. It made no sense to me, except I was intrigued how the little cloth pieces stuck to the board. My Mother, afterwards asked me, "How did you like Sunday School, would you like to go back?" I shrugged my shoulder, so she took that as a 'no' and I never darkened another Church door for 21 years.
So what did I learn at home? Atheistic Evolution from my dad and at school, while my Mother sunk into a shell of depression. Fortunately, shortly after coming to the Lord, the Lord used me instrumentally to introduce my Mother to our Savior.
The other thing I find with Sunday School is, that parents drop their children there, they do some colouring in and get babysat, and the poor adult who has to supervise will ALWAYS then miss out on the churches sermon. Usually it's the young females that get picked on to do this. I don't know why.
If there is no 'sunday school' or 'children's church' then the preacher is then forced to make their sermon much more interesting to hold the children's attention, rather than the children being told they have to sit still in a corner. Because they won't lol.
I thought this was a rather silly arrangement if church is church why are we not all looking after our young ones not leaving them with just one (yes sometimes its just one) adult for an hour or more in a totally separate room. Talk about exclusion! But thats the way it is.
Apparently nobody ever heard Jesus say suffer the little children and forbid them not to come to me, for such is the kingdom of heaven.
If there is no 'sunday school' or 'children's church' then the preacher is then forced to make their sermon much more interesting to hold the children's attention, rather than the children being told they have to sit still in a corner. Because they won't lol.
I thought this was a rather silly arrangement if church is church why are we not all looking after our young ones not leaving them with just one (yes sometimes its just one) adult for an hour or more in a totally separate room. Talk about exclusion! But thats the way it is.
Apparently nobody ever heard Jesus say suffer the little children and forbid them not to come to me, for such is the kingdom of heaven.
I actually agree.
However, in real life......a lot of parents do not parent their children and untold number of people have been saved because the church DID teach their children how to be saved and who Christ is.
I am very glad that your story is no one that happened all 4 year olds.
I am also very glad to hear that you were able to lead your mother to Christ. That is unique for sure.
Especially since the last time she had seen me, I had thrown down a lid on her coffee table and asked if she wanted to smoke, after my conversion, several months later, I threw down a pocket NT and asked if she wanted to read.
Hey crossnote;
I was blessed by your testimony especially when it involved your mother. First, how could you remember going to your first Sunday School at the age of 4?
It reminded me of my mother who brought me to Christ when I was only 9. But knowing my mother's life and my doubts, I didn't know if she was truly a Christian. At her deathbed I offered the prayer of acceptance and she looked at me in the eyes and said she was saved and forgiven. I was taken aback because I doubted my Mom's faith. No wonder she looked and sounded so peaceful and confident (in the Lord.) I was very relieved. Praise God.
That was our last conversation. The next day she went into a coma and the Lord took her.
Thank you for sharing your testimony, crossnote.
Perhaps because it was the ONLY Sunday School I had attended as a kid? Outside that, God seems to have gifted me with a distant memory...but I couldn't tell you the color shirt I had on yesterday. lol
It's truly a blessing to know those whom we love, also love the Lord, even when they pass. Unfortunately, I had two step dads, die in unbelief. That's a heart wrencher.
I also have memories of a very young age. I think some memories become more lasting because of tragedy, shock, or other intense reaction at the time.
I always had a "drug" problem for as long back as I can remember.
Every Sunday my parents "drug" me to Sunday School and Worship services.
Agreed.
Just 3 weeks ago I lead a 54 year old auto mechanic to Christ. One of the things I told him was......."Steve", every single one of us needs to be ready to stand before the Lord Jesus Christ because we never know what tomorrow brings.
I just got a phone call an hour ago that Steve had a massive heart attack and fell dead at his work site.
Don’t know why I gave you a sad smilie, when we are not to be sad at the passing of a believer, except for his remaining loved ones and the grief they go through.
I understood exactly where you were coming from my brother.
Hi MM,
I have come late to your great topic however I would like to answer. Now maybe some one else has said what I will say, as I haven`t read all the pages.
I do believe that God`s word tells us how to gather.
`Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.` (Col. 3: 16)
`...be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, submitting to one another in the fear of God.` (Eph. 5: 18 - 21)
And these can only be done in small groups in relationship to one another, recognizing and appreciating each other`s giftings in the Lord. Sitting in a pew does not grow a person. A teaching session on special occasions can have a lecture type meeting, however to grow people there needs to be discussion so that each contributes and each can learn. And that is best in the small group. Then as those mentored learn and grow then they can do the same in their small group and so it expands outward. (2 Tim. 1 & 2)
This is what we do over our way.
Marilyn.
Hello Marilyn;
Thank you for sharing. I blue-lighted what you wrote about pew sitting. Years ago my wife and I sat in the pew and I said to myself, "I'm ok with God if only I can come to church once a week and sit through the service." We pew sat for 6 months.
Then during Resurrection week we gathered for soup on Sunday evenings and had church conversations on visions for the church. I mentioned I played guitar, not knowing the church had been praying for a guitar player for 3 years.
I was still a Christian babe and did not know at the time the prompting of the Holy Spirit was working. About a month later some of us gathered for prayer with the pastor and formed the church's first ever praise team. As a matter of fact I remember the first songs we learned and played was Lord I Lift Your Name On High, I Will Call Upon The Lord, As The Deer, and Give Thanks.
Wow! That was my first ministry.
God bless you, Marilyn, and your family.
Hi Bob,
Thank you for your comments and part testimony. I too enjoyed working in a church organisational setting. I too really enjoyed playing the music - keyboard and guitar, and teaching the music group, especially the young. I also have had great teaching over the years.
However....there comes a time when I believe the Lord would have us all not to rely on the lecture type format. There is a great need for mentoring and discussion, especially for the younger generation who learn that way. I do understand that some people have a good gathering by an organisation however it is not the only way for believers to gather.
It has, though, over the years silently claimed ultimate authority as to the word `church.` And if you don`t go to that format - a public meeting run by man`s organisation, then you are either back slidden or in rebellion. It seems `the religious system of man` does not want to let go of its power and authority. And all denominations started with a few people in a house setting. Interesting.
Marilyn.
Marilyn,
Not at all a problem to come late to a conversation or an OP (original post). I welcome all people's thoughts.
One thing I would point out is another preacher friend of mine, in another town, who had a congregational following of about 600. Later in his life as a minister, opened up the entire meeting every Sunday morning to open sharing; where people would stand up and share something that was meaningful to them, such as a praise, prayer request, needs, psalms, songs, teaching...whatever was on their hearts. They would stand up where they were sitting in the pews, and openly share, which would sometimes go on for hours...with those needing to go and eat simply leaving when they were ready. Some would even come back to see if the open sharing was still going on. Those who were suffering the most among the congregation, who had the greatest needs, in tears, or whatever, those in proximity would surround that individual in quiet prayer, collectively lifting them up while others continued to share from around the auditorium. The hugs and support was phenomenal. It was organic to those people.
Word of mouth got around about that style of meeting, and the attendance began to grow and grow. However, the devil never sleeps. The purely religious were very angry and vindictive, and began their work to tear down that organization. Over time, they succeeded in splitting the entire congregation, putting guilt trips in the minds of many about having left tradition behind. They ended up succeeding in getting the board members to vote Frank out of the pulpit. The remaining members left behind weren't enough to keep the place financially afloat, and so the whole thing went down, with the sale of the place going to muslims. To this day, through their legalism for required giving, that place is still theirs.
Frank shared with me through all that the messages he was getting from so many who were greatly blessed by that openness and mutual edification that they had gotten nowhere else.
You see, in smaller groups, what I've noticed, is that much of the time, the group consists of fewer people who are more like open books, willing to become vulnerable and transparent, and so something like this not really working out as well as a larger scale meeting place filled with far more variety of people who will share openly, and be willing to stand in the gap for others. Some small groups can have the right people who are receptive to openness, others aren't. I could share some horror stories of some small groups I've encountered, and even some church organizations.
I dared show up at a small group meeting of a Maranatha flavored church organization, and shared some far deeper stuff from the scriptures that began to revolutionize some of those people's thinking about scripture, and that got back to their pastor, who sent one of his elder henchmen to let me know, in no uncertain terms, that their Community Groups were not so "community" after all, but reserved for sworn in "church members" only. I was shocked, and asked what I had shared that could be shown as unbiblical, and that if I was wrong on some doctrine, then am totally willing to confess my error and correct my thinking.
Well, I never did understand my "sin" in relation to the pastor. His preaching, from what I had heard in the hand full of times I heard him preaching, was so milk-toast and wet-noodle gibberish that I couldn't stand his wishy-washy style of faith and practice. I wasn't expecting Bible Cemetery University level teaching, but...oh my. Looking around that place, I marveled that those people were sitting there, mesmerized. It was so geared toward more of a social gospel than the Biblical Gospel hitting dead center on sin, repentance, rising up above the influences of culture and society, and being shining beacons to draw others to Christ.
Oh, sorry. I drifted from the central topic... One is left with having to go from one small group to another to find one that's got the right kinds of people who are not deeply governed by how we were all raised, which is self-reliance and self-sufficiency. That has made so many professing believers closed books who intentionally minimize their openness to others. We tend to slide into a protective mode to defend against being torn to pieces by gossips and those who would use our inner revelations against us. The gossiping socialites among the small groups will tear apart whomever they hear some juicy bit of a life they can use to bring attention to themselves, and bolster their standing among the other gossips.
So, all that to let you know that open sharing has been done on a very large scale, and it works. Some people take more time to warm up to the openness, and some leave because they have no intention of ever opening up. Good riddance, is what I say. The main meeting should never be about evangelism overshadowing the meeting of needs and mutual edification, the purpose of which is stated in the verses you shared.
Treating the entire congregation as if it's filled mostly with people who are not capable of functioning together in an orderly manner, and never allowing them to learn how to function together with other fellow believers in an orderly manner, that's just messed up. The lack of empowerment to live out what they've learned, and will continue to learn, that's a level of "order" that I'm sure Satan and his minions love seeing perpetuated through our traditions. Teaching can still happen. Praise time can still happen. Worship of the Lord within individual hearts can still happen. What's not happening...therein is the problem.
MM
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