Are Women Pastors Biblical???

I think you better quote me so I know what you are referring to. Thank you.

forgiven61 said:
i have friend that is woman pastor preacher . i dont go to her tell her she is not of God. if the Holy spirit dont show her the truth .then my words are empty . i only added my 2 cents neither side will budge
As I`ve said before I do not agree that women are able to carry the load of - Pastor, business person, leader and teacher in an organisational setting.

In a house setting, as in the early church the believers all shared together their giftings - `teach and admonish one another...` (Col. 3: 16)

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Let`s have a look at a few different Greek words that are translated `speak.` We can see that the same English word `speak,` has different meanings in the Greek.


Speak - Gk. `epo,` referring to individual expression or speech.

`So he (Apollos)began to speak boldly in the synagogue.` (Acts 18: 26)



Speak - Gk. `lego,` to lay forth, usually of systematic or set discourse.

`I (Jesus) speak to the world those things which I heard from Him, (Father)` (John 8: 26)



Speak - Gk. `laleo,` to talk, an extended or random harangue,(a noisy or pompous address without solid sense or argument.) Strong`s Concordance. 2980 with information in 3004.

`Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, (laleo)` (1 Cor. 14: 34)

The women were not permitted to give an extended or random harangue.

Well, Marilyn, that's a masterful "slight of hand," so to speak. Hey, I understand what you're saying, but the one, pesky little fact you will never be able to avoid, and is the most powerfully important aspect of that verse, and is the actual FIRST instruction itself, is to "keep silent." Kicking that aside in the hopes that it goes unnoticed, come now. We both know and understand English.

If we dare paraphrase exactly what that verse says, it can be this, "Let your women keep SILENT silent so that they THEN will not violate by engaging extended or random harangue." Casting "keep SILENT" aside, which is the absolute instruction as the protective measure against harangue, why do you have such a problem with that?

Please don't demonize my words as so many others have done over the years. I already stated that I agree with you when it comes to open sharing in fellowships.

What's different is when doctrinal matters are being addressed to the Church in the authority of the elder men. Those men were to be the bastions against heresy. The breakdown of that wall and those who were supposed to be standing upon it in all congregations, is that groups started selecting puny, skirt-wearing men who were/are too spineless to stand up for the purity of the Gospel message and the foundational doctrines as spoken and handed down to us. Women simply were not intended to have a voice in that realm of authority.

I hope that better explains what is conveyed through what ALL of scripture not only states, but also exemplifies in most of what we can see throughout. Pointing at the few exceptions as the rule for all, that's a practice we ALL should be very careful in implementing, because such a practice is then opening the door to the many claims made by other cultic belief systems. Intellectual honesty demands the closure of such leaks in the dam, lest they weaken the structure enough to eventually bring the whole thing down, and flood the city below.

MM
 
i have friend that is woman pastor preacher . i dont go to her tell her she is not of God. if the Holy spirit dont show her the truth .then my words are empty . i only added my 2 cents neither side will budge

As I`ve said before I do not agree that women are able to carry the load of - Pastor, business person, leader and teacher in an organisational setting.

In a house setting, as in the early church the believers all shared together their giftings - `teach and admonish one another...` (Col. 3: 16)

Hello forgiven61,

I agree with you. I would never go to a woman of God and tell her she is not of God. Here's why;

God has a role for women in the Bible and is carried over in the church just as God has a role for the men in the Bible and it carried over in the church. One of them is the shepherdship of God's people.

God's role for women does not include pastoring a church but this does not take away their serious calling in the Old and New Testaments;

Deborah was the 4th and first woman Judge in Judges 4, and in fact was leading Israel at that time because in Judges there were no kings. In Judges she is not recognized by title as "king or leader" but is written that she served God as prophetess (counselor, advisor) and judge.

In the Gospels
Mary was the mother of Jesus the Messiah. She was there when her son was born and when He died on the cross. Mary was obedient to God, 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. - Luke 1:38 ESV Mary ministered to her sons in the upper room with the Apostles and other women during constant prayer reference Acts 1:13 ESV

Mary Magdalene
was a follower of Jesus during His mission. She had zeal, enthusiasm, was caring and gave to the needs of others. God used Mary to be the first to witness the risen Christ. John 20:16,18 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic,“Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”—and that he had said these things to her. - John 20:16,18 ESV

Marilyn, I agree with you that the women are not able to carry the load of Pastor, because God did not give this role to women of God.

I do see it different when it comes to business, finances and organizational settings. I have worked with some of the best minds of women in these areas including the church. In my work career many good women peers and managers, some of them Christian have inspired and made me a better person in my work and ethics. Praise God!

There is a discipline factor that we must keep in mind. From reading the posts I have no doubt that many of you are seasoned Christians who study the Bible. One of the biggest pitfalls in the church is when we slant a Scripture to agree with what we feel so strong about regarding men and women's role in the church.

Something to pray and think about. Throughout God's history, men have shepherd His people and the churches. For many of us it feels anointed, it feels right.

When we bring up the role of women pastoring the church has been met with strains and endless debates since World War II when some churches suggest we ordain women pastors.

When I have heard the equal rights argument, or that men are misogynistic, or that women are misandry, and each other are the reason for the failures of the world, that's the church using the world's way out. It's the easy way for dismissing God's role for men and women in the Bible.

Please, get perspective of the Bible's context of God's role for men and women. This will help minimize endless circles of debate and personal disposition between brother and sister.

God bless you all and your families.
 
As I`ve said before I do not agree that women are able to carry the load of - Pastor, business person, leader and teacher in an organisational setting.

In a house setting, as in the early church the believers all shared together their giftings - `teach and admonish one another...` (Col. 3: 16)

Like Reply
Report Please understand i am only going by your post
Hi forgiven,

This is what you said, but I never said that.

`you said women didnt need the role of pastor . am i correct ?`
 
Well, Marilyn, that's a masterful "slight of hand," so to speak. Hey, I understand what you're saying, but the one, pesky little fact you will never be able to avoid, and is the most powerfully important aspect of that verse, and is the actual FIRST instruction itself, is to "keep silent." Kicking that aside in the hopes that it goes unnoticed, come now. We both know and understand English.

If we dare paraphrase exactly what that verse says, it can be this, "Let your women keep SILENT silent so that they THEN will not violate by engaging extended or random harangue." Casting "keep SILENT" aside, which is the absolute instruction as the protective measure against harangue, why do you have such a problem with that?



MM
Hi MM,

I Cor. 14: 34. `Let your women keep silence in the churches for they are not permitted to speak...`

Silence - Strong`s Concordance.
4601 Gk. `sigao,` meaning hold peace,
And why do they need to `hold their peace?` Why are they not permitted to speak? Because they were interrupting and speaking an extended harangue. (2980 & more information in 3004)

Also 1 Tim. 2: 11.

Silence - Strong`s Concordance,
2271 Gk.`hesuchia,` meaning desist from bustle. fem. of
2272 `hesuchios,` meaning keeping one`s seat, undisturbing, and
2270 (same as 2272) `hesuchazo,` meaning to refrain from meddlesomeness.
 
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Hello forgiven61,

I agree with you. I would never go to a woman of God and tell her she is not of God. Here's why;

God has a role for women in the Bible and is carried over in the church just as God has a role for the men in the Bible and it carried over in the church. One of them is the shepherdship of God's people.

God's role for women does not include pastoring a church but this does not take away their serious calling in the Old and New Testaments;

Deborah was the 4th and first woman Judge in Judges 4, and in fact was leading Israel at that time because in Judges there were no kings. In Judges she is not recognized by title as "king or leader" but is written that she served God as prophetess (counselor, advisor) and judge.

In the Gospels
Mary was the mother of Jesus the Messiah. She was there when her son was born and when He died on the cross. Mary was obedient to God, 38 And Mary said, “Behold, I am the servant of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her. - Luke 1:38 ESV Mary ministered to her sons in the upper room with the Apostles and other women during constant prayer reference Acts 1:13 ESV

Mary Magdalene
was a follower of Jesus during His mission. She had zeal, enthusiasm, was caring and gave to the needs of others. God used Mary to be the first to witness the risen Christ. John 20:16,18 16 Jesus said to her, “Mary.” She turned and said to him in Aramaic,“Rabboni!” (which means Teacher). 18 Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”—and that he had said these things to her. - John 20:16,18 ESV

Marilyn, I agree with you that the women are not able to carry the load of Pastor, because God did not give this role to women of God.

I do see it different when it comes to business, finances and organizational settings. I have worked with some of the best minds of women in these areas including the church. In my work career many good women peers and managers, some of them Christian have inspired and made me a better person in my work and ethics. Praise God!

There is a discipline factor that we must keep in mind. From reading the posts I have no doubt that many of you are seasoned Christians who study the Bible. One of the biggest pitfalls in the church is when we slant a Scripture to agree with what we feel so strong about regarding men and women's role in the church.

Something to pray and think about. Throughout God's history, men have shepherd His people and the churches. For many of us it feels anointed, it feels right.

When we bring up the role of women pastoring the church has been met with strains and endless debates since World War II when some churches suggest we ordain women pastors.

When I have heard the equal rights argument, or that men are misogynistic, or that women are misandry, and each other are the reason for the failures of the world, that's the church using the world's way out. It's the easy way for dismissing God's role for men and women in the Bible.

Please, get perspective of the Bible's context of God's role for men and women. This will help minimize endless circles of debate and personal disposition between brother and sister.

God bless you all and your families.
Hi Bob,

I hear your heart. Now I have only addressed the scriptures given as the basis for this view. If we are to be honest then that is what we should be looking at. If there are more scriptures to bring forward then that is what should happen. However based on the scriptures presented they do not show me that women cannot be shepherds over others.

I see that role of shepherd, pastor in the light of mentoring and guiding others in their walk in the Lord. Obviously women do best with women and men with men. However senior men and women (mature in the Lord) are a great gift to the Body of Christ and should thus be appreciated.

Yes women can be good at business, but to lead an organisation as the sole leader is not for women or for men as I don`t see any scriptural basis for that. Leadership in scripture is always plural.

The duties and responsiblities of leading an organisation go far beyond a pastor`s office. Because an organisation is connected to the government through rules, regulations, etc. It eventually leads to `partnering with the world system.` Just think of the many who have bowed to the values of the world system, (respect, tolerance, inclusiveness etc with all many of degenerate lifestyles). Other requirements are coming and the organisations will comply as they are partnering with the world system.

`Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship, (partnering) with the world (system) is enmity with God? ` (James 4: 4)

Marilyn.
 
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Hi forgiven,

This is what you said, but I never said that.

`you said women didnt need the role of pastor . am i correct ?`

Marilyn C

forgiven61 said:
i have friend that is woman pastor preacher . i dont go to her tell her she is not of God. if the Holy spirit dont show her the truth .then my words are empty . i only added my 2 cents neither side will budge
As I`ve said before I do not agree that women are able to carry the load of - Pastor, business person, leader and teacher in an organisational setting.

In a house setting, as in the early church the believers all shared together their giftings - `teach and admonish one another...` (Col. 3: 16)

Like Reply
Report
 
no mam that is your post copied
You said that I said - `you said women didnt need the role of pastor . am i correct ?`

You have not given me where I quoted that. I never said that and you have misunderstood what ever I was saying.

Note - You can`t go round accusing people and then say `I don`t really care one way or the other.` That is NOT an honest discussion.
 
You said that I said - `you said women didnt need the role of pastor . am i correct ?`

You have not given me where I quoted that. I never said that and you have misunderstood what ever I was saying.

Note - You can`t go round accusing people and then say `I don`t really care one way or the other.` That is NOT an honest discussion.
first let me clarify i have not accused you i asked a question if.. i have given you credit where i can agree with . if any thing in areas i have agreed with you. when i say i dont care one way or the other ...THAT is exactly what i mean. so please dont say { That is NOT an honest discussion.} i have been very honest, upfront with you. when i say my suggestion you operate in a place that allows women to minister/ preach . it will save you lots of headaches and frustrations . i had a lady complain no one in the area wanted woman preachers. i told her same thing...
all though i have doubts she was really called not due to a woman's thing. but it being of self .

I like Bob have outlined woman working in the Church . as harry Truman had a saying the buck stops here. i am pulling from this post as i stated it will get no where. i give you credit honor where honor is due. your dealing with a touchy subject. just like osas have a good night/day what ever time frame your in lol
 
first let me clarify i have not accused you i asked a question if.. i have given you credit where i can agree with . if any thing in areas i have agreed with you. when i say i dont care one way or the other ...THAT is exactly what i mean. so please dont say { That is NOT an honest discussion.} i have been very honest, upfront with you. when i say my suggestion you operate in a place that allows women to minister/ preach . it will save you lots of headaches and frustrations . i had a lady complain no one in the area wanted woman preachers. i told her same thing...
all though i have doubts she was really called not due to a woman's thing. but it being of self .

I like Bob have outlined woman working in the Church . as harry Truman had a saying the buck stops here. i am pulling from this post as i stated it will get no where. i give you credit honor where honor is due. your dealing with a touchy subject. just like osas have a good night/day what ever time frame your in lol
Hi forgiven,

Thank you for your clarification.
All I have ever done is to discuss what the scriptural basis of this view is. That is what the discussion should be. However all I see is mainly people`s opinions.

Marilyn.
 
Hi Bob,
I hear your heart. Now I have only addressed the scriptures given as the basis for this view. If we are to be honest then that is what we should be looking at. If there are more scriptures to bring forward then that is what should happen. However based on the scriptures presented they do not show me that women cannot be shepherds over others. I see that role of shepherd, pastor in the light of mentoring and guiding others in their walk in the Lord. Obviously women do best with women and men with men. However senior men and women (mature in the Lord) are a great gift to the Body of Christ and should thus be appreciated. Yes women can be good at business, but to lead an organisation as the sole leader is not for women or for men as I don`t see any scriptural basis for that. Leadership in scripture is always plural. The duties and responsiblities of leading an organisation go far beyond a pastor`s office. Because an organisation is connected to the government through rules, regulations, etc. It eventually leads to `partnering with the world system.` Just think of the many who have bowed to the values of the world system, (respect, tolerance, inclusiveness etc with all many of degenerate lifestyles). Other requirements are coming and the organisations will comply as they are partnering with the world system. `Adulterers and adulteresses! Do you not know that friendship, (partnering) with the world (system) is enmity with God? ` (James 4: 4)
Marilyn.

Hello Marilyn;

I hear you as well, sister, and I receive both our views and am also blessed by everyone's points.

I'm going to encourage us all to arrive at a common ground of agree and disagree while maintaining the love of Christian fellowship.

Then by tomorrow morning the staff will close this topic amicably, and move on to the next discussion.

God bless everyone and your families.
 
All I have ever done is to discuss what the scriptural basis of this view is. That is what the discussion should be. However all I see is mainly people`s opinions.
i understand but unfortunately the opinions replied .are backed by scripture as many has studied . this is why state it will never be settled. i have entered discussion in other forums on osas osnas. it started out good but ended up a stance on my doctrine is the correct doctrine. i will admit i have studied the subject many times. find good points on both sides. if your doing a work in your Church stay with it.
 
On a final note, nothing matters more than what God says, what He thinks, and what He does. All else is secondary. I submit this topic to the Lord for His judgment, because, again, that's all that really matters in the scope of all the Bible. Isn't that wonderful? He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the All in all. The Lord is good...all the time. I'm so thankful that the Lord has and will use all He so chooses to His glory.

Amen
 
On a final note, nothing matters more than what God says, what He thinks, and what He does. All else is secondary. I submit this topic to the Lord for His judgment, because, again, that's all that really matters in the scope of all the Bible. Isn't that wonderful? He is the Alpha and Omega. He is the All in all. The Lord is good...all the time. I'm so thankful that the Lord has and will use all He so chooses to His glory.

Amen

I started this thread a long time ago. It only seems that I should be able to end it with the literal, written words of God.

Many have given their opinion. Some for and some against. May I say to all of you that our opinions mean absolutely nothing.

John 17:17 says........
"Sanctify them with truth, thy Word is truth".

This topic is NOT about women or men or who can do this or who cannot do that. It is and always has been about "obedience" to the Word of God. We either accept it as it is written to us as we are, or we reject it and try to make it say what we want it to say.

1 Timothy 3:1-2.......
"This is a true saying, If a MAN desire the office of a bishop, HE desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach".

Thanks to all of you who participated in this discussion!
 
And let us not forget that any doctrine in never based on ONE scripture.

All scripture must fit in with the whole of scripture.
Sure.

#1. 1 Timothy 2.:12......
" I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man

#2. ! Timothy 2:13;
" rather, she is to remain quiet."

#3. 1 Tim. 2:14.......
" For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor."

#4. I Corinthians 14:34-35
"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.

#5. 1 Corth. 14:35.......
"If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church."
 
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Dare we look at both sides of this topic, and in relation to those verses, Major, perhaps we can make some observations. Some of my acquaintances in the scholastic world have told me their thoughts on this from the more liberal perspective:

1) Paul was clearly speaking from his own beliefs rooted in his Jewish background where women are of less value and standing than the men
2) Paul clearly didn't say, "Thus saith the Lord..."
3) Those passages reflect nothing more than what was the cultural norm back then
4) The Bible was written by men
5) Women are more equal today than back then, so we must go along with our modern customs as the norm
6) I don't think God inspired that to be written at all since Jesus treated women as total equals to men
7) Paul was anti-woman
8) The exception of there having been a woman judge in OT times during the time of the Patriarchs, that signals to us today a change to God's thinking about the equality of men and women, and serves as a blanket change to the statements made in the garden concerning women
9) Priscilla was on totally equal footing with her husband in teaching and doctrinal authority over other men and women, even if the text doesn't come right out and state such

The list can go on and on, much of which points to a lack of reliance upon the integrity of scripture and accepting it for what it says; which only goes to saying that the Bible is only reliable if and when interpreted through the lenses of...(fill in the blank, for there are many non-historic methods of interpretations these days).

So, these verses say what they say, and don't need me to defend them in the arena of their clarity. So, each individual is left with choosing a side. Can the Lord still enact today any exceptions to what Paul said? Well, unlike so many others, I have no problems with God's Sovereignty, so He does as He so chooses in all things, but I cannot budge away from what's written on the basis of any one or hand full of exceptions. If anyone claims to be an exception in accordance with the expressed, written will of the Lord, then the Lord will confirm that in His own way, to those of His choosing.

So, as I had said before, what really matters is what the Lord has said, and to date, He hasn't revealed to me any deviations/exceptions from what's written. I fully trust in the Lord to show to us His will in all things that He hasn't already inspired to be written. The testament is closed, so it cannot be said to have been altered.

MM
 
Dare we look at both sides of this topic, and in relation to those verses, Major, perhaps we can make some observations. Some of my acquaintances in the scholastic world have told me their thoughts on this from the more liberal perspective:

1) Paul was clearly speaking from his own beliefs rooted in his Jewish background where women are of less value and standing than the men
2) Paul clearly didn't say, "Thus saith the Lord..."
3) Those passages reflect nothing more than what was the cultural norm back then
4) The Bible was written by men
5) Women are more equal today than back then, so we must go along with our modern customs as the norm
6) I don't think God inspired that to be written at all since Jesus treated women as total equals to men
7) Paul was anti-woman
8) The exception of there having been a woman judge in OT times during the time of the Patriarchs, that signals to us today a change to God's thinking about the equality of men and women, and serves as a blanket change to the statements made in the garden concerning women
9) Priscilla was on totally equal footing with her husband in teaching and doctrinal authority over other men and women, even if the text doesn't come right out and state such

The list can go on and on, much of which points to a lack of reliance upon the integrity of scripture and accepting it for what it says; which only goes to saying that the Bible is only reliable if and when interpreted through the lenses of...(fill in the blank, for there are many non-historic methods of interpretations these days).

So, these verses say what they say, and don't need me to defend them in the arena of their clarity. So, each individual is left with choosing a side. Can the Lord still enact today any exceptions to what Paul said? Well, unlike so many others, I have no problems with God's Sovereignty, so He does as He so chooses in all things, but I cannot budge away from what's written on the basis of any one or hand full of exceptions. If anyone claims to be an exception in accordance with the expressed, written will of the Lord, then the Lord will confirm that in His own way, to those of His choosing.

So, as I had said before, what really matters is what the Lord has said, and to date, He hasn't revealed to me any deviations/exceptions from what's written. I fully trust in the Lord to show to us His will in all things that He hasn't already inspired to be written. The testament is closed, so it cannot be said to have been altered.

MM

Yes sir. I have been exposed to every one of those explanations and even more than those. But again, it simply comes down to obedience to what is actually said in the Scriptures.

Allow me to say this. Right now, in my church we have a woman music minister. A woman chairman of the Finances. A woman in charge of Community Outreach. I do not know how many Bible teachers, probably 5 or 6.
Now because every woman in the church has READ the Bible and understands what is written right in front of them, not a single woman would accept the position of a Deacon or an Ordained Pastor.

They would not accept them because the Word of Of God says that ....."If A MAN.....and HUSBAND of one wife".
 
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