As teaching to him individual basis, not as the local church Pastors!
Are Women Pastors Biblical???
- Thread starter Major
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You know, Marilyn, I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. The institutional "model" is indeed entangled in the webs of hierarchy, business structuring, liturgy, lawn care, dead buildings, governed by laws, et al. No problem there. Even home fellowships are governed by laws of some sort. We can't escape them. Walking down the sidewalk, chewing bubble gun falls prey to laws. Nothing new there. I can be given a ticket for walking down a neighborhood street because of no sidewalks, and if not walking against traffic, and I be ticked for that. One of these days we may end up being cited for breathing hard after working out since doing so puts a higher volume of CO2 out into the atmosphere, along with one's viruses and bateria droplets. There's no end to laws when you have a legislature that would otherwise sit around with nothing to do if not passing more and more and more laws, ad infinitum.
Now, let's talk about the scope of Paul's instructions, in that what he said here seems to be everyone's favorite verse:
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
I've seen all manner of feministic warps twists and outright corruptions of that one verse almost more than any other. Likewise, I've seen all manner of the other extreme perpetrated by the "male chauvinist who make women a doormat" gang. Both extremes think they have the singular trophy of one-upmanship in both their trophy cases.
To me, the only reward for who really won is already awarded to Christ Jesus by the Father (the JO's will simply have to bite the bullet on that statement since I'm not going to argue that one here). The real question here is, who is Lord over all? Who inspired what Paul said to be written? Who is the authority to establish distinctions based upon gender one is born with? Hey, the Lord raised up a woman as a Judge over Israel in the closest thing this planet has ever seen as a theocracy.
The Lord is Lord, He is Sovereign, and we all can take a flying leap if and when we don't like that. Deal? Are we agreed?
Now, Paul spoke an absolute in that verse; an absolute that we can safely say is universal in scope. The idea of building a protective wall around the institutional model because of all its weaknesses and trappings...well, perhaps you can do that, but I personally would be very careful about concocting such an ideological exception. It traipses somewhat into the realm of convenience and potential extortion.
For example, my wife's church organization she attends is affiliated with another one that has had a woman preacher for decades, allegedly because all the men in that congregation were too wimpy, spineless, emasculated and frail to stand up like men and serve, similar to the woman Judge (Deborah?) over Israel. Perhaps that woman preacher was doing right in the eyes of the Lord. She is His creation and His servant, and I will leave it to Him to judge that situation.
However, if and when we question Paul's instruction, taking it for what it says, without all the mish-mash, gyrations and hip bumps...deep down, dare we read it with as close to objective eyesight as possible, it's meaning is quite clear. You may disagree with that, which is fine. When we look through history and how the Lord did things, we see His favoring the strength of godly men standing up to take the reigns of authority and responsibility. Teaching is a HUGE responsibility:
James 3:1 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon, in relation to the word "masters" shows this as the actual meaning in that context and grammatical seating:
6. of those who in the religious assemblies of Christians undertake the work of teaching, with the special assistance of the Holy Spirit:
Far too many in pulpits don't take that seriously enough.
So, if you see yourself as empowered to erect a wall of separation from scriptural mandates for doctrinal teaching authority within the institutional model (if I'm understanding your thesis correctly), I'd have to see something more concrete than just your opinion, because, for most Christians, that religious, institutional model is all they have whereby they associate with any doctrinal authority to teach them.
MM
I superimposed nothing, Marilyn. The early Church was what it was, and we today are what we are...in whatever expression we're in.
As to who taught Apollos, here's what I read:
1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
That "I" is Paul who was talking. To superimpose upon the text the idea that Priscilla was on equal footing for teaching authority with her husband...that's like saying the Church is on equal footing with Christ in authority. Sorry, I don't buy that. Assumptions like yours traipse into the arena of eisegeses from what I'm seeing, unless I'm not understanding your meaning.
MM
So who do you see listed as a `Pastor?`
Teaching is teaching and not limited to an organisational setting of which there never was in the early church days. And may I say, the teaching they imparted to Apollos, was the Body of Christ revelation. Although Apollos was `mighty in the scriptures` he graciously heard them and humbly received that revelation.
I wonder are we as humble if we are shown more revelation?
Hi MM,
Do you actually read my comments? Or have you short term memory there bro. I have never written my opinion but straight from God`s word. However it seems you need to understand something very important when reading God`s word in English. You see our language is not as detailed as the Greek. eg. the word `love,` in English can mean sexual, friendship, just plain ridiculous - I love chocolate, the same word as I love my husband/wife.
In the Greek the word `love` has 4 meanings so it is good to look up the difference.
Thus when we read the words `silence` or `speak` they also have various meanings in Greek. To just take these words as WE WOULD INTERPRET them is very ignorant, and misusing God`s word. At worse it can be ADDING OR TAKING AWAY what God really meant!!!!
So `silence,` in 1 Tim. 2: 11 refers to `not being meddlesome.` And `authority over,` means `usurping authority.`
And `silent and speak` in 1 Cor. 14: 34 refers to them having an extended or random harangue. (harangue - a noisy or pompous address.)
Hope that helps, Marilyn.
Jesus is still the Head and building His called out ones as He always has - through discipleship. Man has built his systems but they are not God`s way. Yes there are ministers guiding the flock and doing their best in a difficult situation trammeled with so many extra responsibilities that so many have given up or just go through the motions or even worse fallen.
Yes the women is on an equal footing with the husband. You would have to prove different. As to the man being the `head` of the woman, that refers to the man being the source of the woman, (Eve came from Adam) NOT for him to lord it over as God`s word says they shouldn`t.
Oh, my, Marilyn. If only you knew me. The Greek and the Hebrew are what I trust the most...FAR more than any English translation. You're preaching to the choir here. The KJV translators themselves admitted to the weaknesses on their 1611 translation, and as I recall, they didn't consider their translation better than the others. I thought you had seen my many posts where I drew heavily from the Greek and Hebrew of the Textus Receptus, except not so much from the Vaticanus, Siniaticus, Aleph B, or C, and various others that have some question as to their content.
Rest assured, my friend and sister, I am not as uninformed as I may look or appear in my writings when trying to respond quickly due to time constraints. I type VERY fast, and fat fingering is a malady of mine that has no cure in pills, elixirs or snake oils...apart from proof reading my gibberish, which I generally don't have time to do much of (I love ending with prepositions).
I acquiesce on this topic because, sister, I don't have to answer on your behalf when you stand before the Lord, and vice versa. When I see anyone leaning in the direction of them having given none of their own thinking about things, and that it's strictly from the same Bible I read, and I don't see their thinking in it...that's when I lay down my arms and stand on the side of keeping the peace. This topic isn't a hill worth dying on. It's peripheral to me because I follow where the Head leads me in this body, and He has never led me to follow a woman who sees herself as a God-appointed authority in doctrine or eldership.
You have the scriptures, just as all the rest of us here, and we all will answer for our own pride and errors. My pride issues and errors are plentiful enough without bickering over something like this.
Blessings to you and yours.
MM
Again, this is something I've seen creeping into the institutional system and various small groupings for many decades now, and you can't win this argument with me, and I know that I could never win you over to what I see in scripture, so it's a dead conversation before it ever gets started. The Lord will teach you if you are teachable on this. I leave it to Him. I simply don't have time to hash through perhaps many things you've already argued and denied outright with many others in the past. We both fixed on our beliefs. I stand where I am on this because I have yet to see anything presented that carries with it a reasonable alternative to what I've come to believe based upon study and study I've done.
MM
Why then MM have you not addressed the Greek words and meanings I have referred to. That is a cope out. And it did not need the long harangue you gave.
And I am not saying that women (or men) are over any one. Look at how the Apostle Paul acted - as a nursing mother and caring father. Those with such ministries undergirded the others, they did not `lord it over.` Sadly those running an organisation are put in that difficult position.
You know MM, all I see in your posts are your opinions. You hardly ever post scripture. Why?
this will never be settled
Marilyn, throwing into the mix the idea of "lording it over" and other extreme language and terminology that allegedly represents where we're all coming from on this topic, well, none of that represents what I or anyone else has stated (so far as I can see). You're making use of extremes that are nothing more than red herring fallacies.
Can't we be friends without demonizing the words and positions of others?
MM
(rolling eyes to the ceiling) Ok, well, post #104 and others show me putting forth scripture. So, to satisfy your friendly appetite for accusation, here you go:
Acts 18:24-28
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, [and] mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.
25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto [them], and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:
28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, [and that] publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.
In verse 26, the English word translated "expounded" is said to mean, from Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
2. Middle metaphorically, to set forth, declare, expound: Acts 11:4; τί, Acts 18:26; Acts 28:23; ([Aristotle, passim]; Diodorus 12, 18; Josephus, Antiquities 1, 12, 2; Athen. 7, p. 278 d.; others).
Aquila and Priscilla set forth...what?
Declarative clarification; and for what?
The text makes it clear that they set something right within Apollos' understanding...but from where?
Was it their own authority in doctrine? No.
We can likely say from Paul's teaching to them that they simply passed on to Apollos, and we can say from the scriptures.
From where did Paul get his information?
Well, given that he, not Aquila nor Priscilla, but he, Paul, is the one who saw Christ, and who was commissioned to write most of what we call the NT scriptures throughout his journeys, that doesn't make Priscilla a doctrinal authority any more than it would make you or any other woman an authority in doctrinal teaching to work together with her husband to share with someone like Apollos what Paul had said to them.
Paul was still walking this earth, and therefore no indication whatsoever in the text this fantasy of Aquila and Priscilla being two giants as doctrinal teaching authorities. They simply did what I would have done, which is to point out what Paul had said on the topic. That would not make me some sort of giant for teaching authority in the Church...unless I had an ego as large as Texas. Teaching authority in the Church carries with it a tremendous responsibility and double judgement, both of which I take very seriously. That's why I point only to the scriptures, not to myself in order to gather others around myself. I say to them to look to the written word, and to Holy Spirit:
1 John 2:26-27
26 These [things] have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Generally speaking, the seduction of feministic theologies that tear families, churches and doctrinal purity apart, they do little more than put lipstick, panties and skirts on the men who allow such to overpower them. I've seen it here locally and abroad, and those are wicked and evil heresies that must be met head-on with what's written. Those who have an ear to hear, they should hear with sober reflection. This is not a matter of men lording over women, by the way. This is about men being men, and women being women within the confines of our God-given responsibilities.
The distinctions within the Church and the family are God-breathed, not some concoction of masculinity gone wild, as some freakishly claim out there. I invite all ministers to speak boldly on this as battle fronts against the wickedness flowing all across this earth like a cesspool gone mad.
MM
Perhaps. However it would have been good to actually have a discussion on the scriptures that were posted regarding this topic and NOT people`s opinions.
MM,
You never addressed the scriptures that were used to back this theory. I wrote what the Greek meanings were and you have never discussed that and only gave your opinions.
And again you are `accusing` me in an underhand way.
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Marilyn, please don't see my generalized statements as accusatory of you personally. I can't imagine that you identify with what I addressed generally.
For example, what I had in mind when writing that is a large assemblage of people (in NY, years ago, or wherever place it was that they met), who praised the pagan goddess Sophia as a co-creator with the father-god they believe in (and allegedly his sex partner?), and they worshipped her in that conference, never offering anything up to the male part of that...being they believe in! That grouping were an extreme measure of feministic theology followers. It's my hope that you don't identify with them, and I never assumed you did. I use such examples as a way of establishing an intellectual, outer borderline of understanding to the scope of my comments.
So I'm asking that you not demonize my statements as being underhanded slices at you personally. I'm not here attacking anyone. I'm attacking the enemy of all our souls by revealing what he and his servants are doing out there in the world. That's why I stated "Generally speaking..."
Also, what post number are you referring to about the Greek?
MM