Are Women Pastors Biblical???

[Marilyn C]

Hey MC,I dont normally agree with the crowd but in this case its true..woman are not to usurp authority of the man.

1Timothy 2:12 -
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

However woman are permitted to lead and teach other women.

Titus 2:3
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; that they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Men and woman have different roles that is all it is.

And RDJ, let`s not forget that men are not to `lord it over` women or anyone. Can`t just have it one way.

`Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly: nor as being LORDS OVER those entrusted to you....be submissive to one another...` (1 Peter 5: 2 & 3, & 5)

The word `Silence` is NOT what you are thinking. Look up the actual word, it means `meddlesome.` You are twisting God`s word.

 

[Marilyn C]

I find that in a denominational setting that the responsibility of administration and sole leadership can be very taxing on women.

However I don`t see that the Body of Christ gathering has to be in a denominational setting. The true Body is made up of many local groups who appreciate each other`s giftings and make room for that.

`Let the word of Christ dwell in you rightly in all wisdom, TEACHING and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.` (Col. 3: 16)

This is NOT possible in a public meeting.

 

[Musicmaster]

I find that in a denominational setting that the responsibility of administration and sole leadership can be very taxing on women.

However I don`t see that the Body of Christ gathering has to be in a denominational setting. The true Body is made up of many local groups who appreciate each other`s giftings and make room for that.

`Let the word of Christ dwell in you rightly in all wisdom, TEACHING and admonishing ONE ANOTHER in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.` (Col. 3: 16)

This is NOT possible in a public meeting.

Well, this is another place where I disagree with you.

Scripture please?

I'm asking because I've visited meetings where there were over 300 in Kansas, and another one where there were over 3000 in southern California, where the congregants openly shared, prayed for each who asked for it, provided support for those who spoke of needs, and just general openness that I found refreshingly blessed. Some stood up and taught, while others brought admonishments, psalms and hymns.

Public?

Yes...very much so.

MM

 

[Marilyn C]

Well, this is another place where I disagree with you.

Scripture please?

I'm asking because I've visited meetings where there were over 300 in Kansas, and another one where there were over 3000 in southern California, where the congregants openly shared, prayed for each who asked for it, provided support for those who spoke of needs, and just general openness that I found refreshingly blessed. Some stood up and taught, while others brought admonishments, psalms and hymns.

Public?

Yes...very much so.

MM

Hi MM,

I hear you, but tell me how does a person intimately know and function in daily life with 300 let alone 3000 people. Would they even know that many names. Come on now, it is just window dressing, the appearance of, and not the actual substance or real relating.

 

[bobinfaith]

And RDJ, let`s not forget that men are not to `lord it over` women or anyone. Can`t just have it one way.

`Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly: nor as being LORDS OVER those entrusted to you....be submissive to one another...` (1 Peter 5: 2 & 3, & 5)

The word `Silence` is NOT what you are thinking. Look up the actual word, it means `meddlesome.` You are twisting God`s word.

Ah, I see, and amen. For the first 3 years of our marriage ( 27 and 28 years old then) I alway ministered to my wife that she is to obey me because it's Biblical. I learned and now know better.

Marilyn wrote - The word `Silence` is NOT what you are thinking. Look up the actual word, it means `meddlesome.` You are twisting God`s word.

Marilyn, if we are talking 1 Timothy 2:12, the word quiet, silence, quietness, Paul is referring to listening and learning quietly with submissiveness and composure, not totally silent. I don't see the context of meddling.

Praytell, what say you? lol! (don't laugh at my English)

 

[RDJ]

Well, this is another place where I disagree with you.

Scripture please?

I'm asking because I've visited meetings where there were over 300 in Kansas, and another one where there were over 3000 in southern California, where the congregants openly shared, prayed for each who asked for it, provided support for those who spoke of needs, and just general openness that I found refreshingly blessed. Some stood up and taught, while others brought admonishments, psalms and hymns.

Public?

Yes...very much so.

MM

Well, this is another place where I disagree with you.

Scripture please?

I'm asking because I've visited meetings where there were over 300 in Kansas, and another one where there were over 3000 in southern California, where the congregants openly shared, prayed for each who asked for it, provided support for those who spoke of needs, and just general openness that I found refreshingly blessed. Some stood up and taught, while others brought admonishments, psalms and hymns.

Public?

Yes...very much so.

MM

I think these 2 huge gatherings you found that seemed to work are the exception.The general rule is that these huge gatherings dont work..To me its just theater.

Would of been nice if you stayed around a few more weeks to actually get a real feel of the gathering each week.You had a great first date now you think you know the person.I think to base your position on 1 or 2 experiences is not wise at all.

 

[RDJ]

And RDJ, let`s not forget that men are not to `lord it over` women or anyone. Can`t just have it one way.

`Shepherd the flock of God which is among you, serving as overseers, not by constraint but willingly, not for dishonest gain but eagerly: nor as being LORDS OVER those entrusted to you....be submissive to one another...` (1 Peter 5: 2 & 3, & 5)

The word `Silence` is NOT what you are thinking. Look up the actual word, it means `meddlesome.` You are twisting God`s word.

I dont do the greek and hebrew thing..I don't speak or understand those languages and I think you don't either.Im not twisting God's word.Although taking a word out of a language you dont understanding and saying it should mean this in english is a bit of a twist to me.

The translators actually spoke greek and Im definitely taking their expert view on what words should be there.

You are playing with fire doing what you are doing.

 

[Marilyn C]

I dont do the greek and hebrew thing..I don't speak or understand those languages and I think you don't either.Im not twisting God's word.Although taking a word out of a language you dont understanding and saying it should mean this in english is a bit of a twist to me.

The translators actually spoke greek and Im definitely taking their expert view on what words should be there.

You are playing with fire doing what you are doing.

Hi RDJ,

I don`t mind the `fire` as it gets rid of the dross. Are you ready though?

This is what I believe of that demonic doctrine on `women are to keep silent in the church.` The `silence` this doctrine says as meaning not to speak at all.

So that rules out, testimony, prayer, bible reading, teaching and admonishing, prophesying, singing? and probably much more. This is abuse and actually trying to `muzzle` a part of the Body of Christ, (no male or female) and tries to make a woman feel unworthy, and not holy enough to be given a word from the Holy Spirit to share. It also says that the Lord was not able to redeem the woman enough to enable her to share publicly.

And...turning the heat up a notch.....

`If you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts do not boast against the truth. This wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly and sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing will be there.` (James 3: 14 - 16)

The demonic doctrine of `muzzling` the women in meetings, is not `wisdom from above,` but actually demonic in that it tries to stop the Holy Spirit working through the women. And we are definitely told we are not to `quench the Spirit.` (1 Thess. 5: 19)

 

[Marilyn C]

Ah, I see, and amen. For the first 3 years of our marriage ( 27 and 28 years old then) I alway ministered to my wife that she is to obey me because it's Biblical. I learned and now know better.

Marilyn wrote - The word `Silence` is NOT what you are thinking. Look up the actual word, it means `meddlesome.` You are twisting God`s word.

Marilyn, if we are talking 1 Timothy 2:12, the word quiet, silence, quietness, Paul is referring to listening and learning quietly with submissiveness and composure, not totally silent. I don't see the context of meddling.

Praytell, what say you? lol! (don't laugh at my English)

Hi bob,

Good to see your marriage survived and actually thrived. Now I do find you very gracious and thus appreciate your question. I have answered it else where however you must have missed it.

Silence - Gk. word `hesuchia,` meaning desistance from bustle. From the Gk, word `hesuchazo,` meaning refrain from meddlesomeness speech.

Marilyn.

 

[RDJ]

Hi RDJ,

I don`t mind the `fire` as it gets rid of the dross. Are you ready though?

This is what I believe of that demonic doctrine on `women are to keep silent in the church.` The `silence` this doctrine says as meaning not to speak at all.

So that rules out, testimony, prayer, bible reading, teaching and admonishing, prophesying, singing? and probably much more. This is abuse and actually trying to `muzzle` a part of the Body of Christ, (no male or female) and tries to make a woman feel unworthy, and not holy enough to be given a word from the Holy Spirit to share. It also says that the Lord was not able to redeem the woman enough to enable her to share publicly.

And...turning the heat up a notch.....

`If you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts do not boast against the truth. This wisdom does not come from above, but is earthly and sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing will be there.` (James 3: 14 - 16)

The demonic doctrine of `muzzling` the women in meetings, is not `wisdom from above,` but actually demonic in that it tries to stop the Holy Spirit working through the women. And we are definitely told we are not to `quench the Spirit.` (1 Thess. 5: 19)

Ok..whats clear is that woman are not to be in positions of leadership.That means no woman pastors.Are we agreeing on that atleast?

When I said you are playing with fire I meant the process of finding understanding from a language you do not understand.You cant just pick out random words and say 'oh look' its supposed to be this word.Your whole position is based on one word which you claim is wrong.

1Corinth 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[forgiven61]

However woman are permitted to lead and teach other women.

would you be willing to do children church ? teach grade school children in Sunday school class ? while i am not a pro woman pastor i have no control over others so i figure let God weed it out. the majority of the church is held up by the women . majority of men are not interested in Church. my wife took our son to church for years. while i went out Sunday morning did my own thing. i use to teach and yes once i tried young grade school children. even in my early years did teen s.s class. i stepped back and yes a woman took both the classes.. women have a place in the church. i had a great young adult s.s class teacher we loved her to death. she nourished us with the word. this same woman was my 1st grade teacher . even her husband sit in our class . we loved him like one of our own

 

[RDJ]

would you be willing to do children church ? teach grade school children in Sunday school class ? while i am not a pro woman pastor i have no control over others so i figure let God weed it out. the majority of the church is held up by the women . majority of men are not interested in Church. my wife took our son to church for years. while i went out Sunday morning did my own thing. i use to teach and yes once i tried young grade school children. even in my early years did teen s.s class. i stepped back and yes a woman took both the classes.. women have a place in the church. i had a great young adult s.s class teacher we loved her to death. she nourished us with the word. this same woman was my 1st grade teacher . even her husband sit in our class . we loved him like one of our own

The bible is not my word..If you happy to make your point against God then do that.

 

[forgiven61]

The bible is not my word..If you happy to make your point against God then do that.

i am sorry you feel that way i am not against the word. i am pointing out if the men is %100 leadership woman stay in silence, put the men in nursery and children church . God uses woman ..i did notice you never said if you done nursery or children church . maybe men should cook and serve food to

 

[RDJ]

i am sorry you feel that way i am not against the word. i am pointing out if the men is %100 leadership woman stay in silence, put the men in nursery and children church . God uses woman ..i did notice you never said if you done nursery or children church . maybe men should cook and serve food to

Nursery and children church?Babies need to be home with their mothers and the children need to learn about God from their parents until they are old enough to attend grown up church.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi MM,

I hear you, but tell me how does a person intimately know and function in daily life with 300 let alone 3000 people. Would they even know that many names. Come on now, it is just window dressing, the appearance of, and not the actual substance or real relating.

Oh, my. You're hitting on a depth that could and would require an entire dissertation to do it justice (if even that were possible), therefore only a contraction will I provide, chancing that you still not understand. You had to be there. You're focus only upon the level of or humanity and the limitations therein, I absolutely agree with you. However, when I addressed this, I was speaking from a higher plain than the human limitations the Lord surpasses and exceeds in ways that defy language and written/verbal expression.

I'm willing to hazard a tongue lashing for not conveying the depths of what I had revealed that is contrary to your earlier statement, because I cannot hand over to you or anyone else that most glorious Presence in those places where the reality was unearthly in the sense that it cannot be contrived by any written program handed out by ushers and greeters, nor orchestrated from a pulpit.

So, I leave you to your own devices in trying to grapple with that which is experiential by way of the Divine. Does that sound "charismatic?" (shrug) Maybe, but I'm not charismatic in the least, nor am I strictly intellectual...having been raised Southern Baptist. I just know that the Lord moved in those places like I have never seem Him move in any others. No, there were no tongues of flames alighting upon heads or anything like that. There was a Power in those places that (to my thinking) is the birthright of all believers, but is denied for the sake of programmaticism (hey, I just invented a new word...).

Do with it as you will, for the best I could ever hope to do for you in answering this is to take your hand, and lead you into a place where there is such an experience being lived out, and let the Spirit show to you what is beyond words.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

Nursery and children church?Babies need to be home with their mothers and the children need to learn about God from their parents until they are old enough to attend grown up church.

sure glad i wont never refer anyone to your church. i will say this nicely after that im done.. you have serious issues and your out of scripture

Matthew 19:14

King James Version

​

14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.. this post ends now

 

[Marilyn C]

I dont do the greek and hebrew thing..I don't speak or understand those languages and I think you don't either.Im not twisting God's word.Although taking a word out of a language you dont understanding and saying it should mean this in english is a bit of a twist to me.

The translators actually spoke greek and Im definitely taking their expert view on what words should be there.

You are playing with fire doing what you are doing.

Hi RDJ,

Let`s look at what you have said - Although taking a word out of a language you don`t understanding and saying it should mean this in english is a bit of a twist to me.

So when Jesus said to Peter, "Do you love me more than these?" (John 21: 15) What love is that? .............................
And a third time Jesus said to Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love me?" (John 21: 17) What love is that? .........................

All the same English word but NOT the same Greek word and thus has a different meaning.

Do you love your dog?
Do you love your wife?
Do you love your friend?
Do you love God?
Do you love chocolate?

One word in the English but with different meanings. Greek is much more precise and has 4 words for `love.` Thus we need to look up the concordance and find out the meanings.

As to taking the translators at their word, so you would say that Jesus was asking Peter did he love Him, sexually? friendly? perversion? God`s love? One English word, `love,` so which do the translators mean? And why did they keep the same word `love` when the meaning actually changed the third time Jesus asked the question?

 

[Marilyn C]

Oh, my. You're hitting on a depth that could and would require an entire dissertation to do it justice (if even that were possible), therefore only a contraction will I provide, chancing that you still not understand. You had to be there. You're focus only upon the level of or humanity and the limitations therein, I absolutely agree with you. However, when I addressed this, I was speaking from a higher plain than the human limitations the Lord surpasses and exceeds in ways that defy language and written/verbal expression.

I'm willing to hazard a tongue lashing for not conveying the depths of what I had revealed that is contrary to your earlier statement, because I cannot hand over to you or anyone else that most glorious Presence in those places where the reality was unearthly in the sense that it cannot be contrived by any written program handed out by ushers and greeters, nor orchestrated from a pulpit.

So, I leave you to your own devices in trying to grapple with that which is experiential by way of the Divine. Does that sound "charismatic?" (shrug) Maybe, but I'm not charismatic in the least, nor am I strictly intellectual...having been raised Southern Baptist. I just know that the Lord moved in those places like I have never seem Him move in any others. No, there were no tongues of flames alighting upon heads or anything like that. There was a Power in those places that (to my thinking) is the birthright of all believers, but is denied for the sake of programmaticism (hey, I just invented a new word...).

Do with it as you will, for the best I could ever hope to do for you in answering this is to take your hand, and lead you into a place where there is such an experience being lived out, and let the Spirit show to you what is beyond words.

MM

Hi MM,

I was brought up in the Apostolic denomination and know exactly what you are talking about. The point is that public meetings are just that - public and organised by a denomination. It is limited in its effectiveness and is not the way the early church functioned. It is a later model based on a lecture type meeting.

Each denomination was brought about by gathering those who received a certain truth and `guarding` it. Thus Lutherians, (Salvation) Baptists, (Baptism) Methodists, (holy living), Pentecostals, (infilling of the Holy Spirit), Apostolics, ( 5 fold ministries). Thus today we all have received of these truths and hopefully appreciated those who were ostracized or even martyred for standing for a truth.

So small groups who recognize each other`s gifting and function together are more relational I believe, than those in larger groups.

 

[Marilyn C]

Ok..whats clear is that woman are not to be in positions of leadership.That means no woman pastors.Are we agreeing on that atleast?

When I said you are playing with fire I meant the process of finding understanding from a language you do not understand.You cant just pick out random words and say 'oh look' its supposed to be this word.Your whole position is based on one word which you claim is wrong.

1Corinth 14:34-35
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Hi RDJ,

No that position is not clear. Though I said it before and will again, I do not think that women are good at carrying the load in a denominational setting, as it involves more than shepherding, but involves business, and leading as a CEO, and dealing with men in a `lording it over` role. All of which is not good for men either but they tend to handle it better for men look to them. Not to say women haven`t done it or still do, but to me the whole denominational structure thing has served its purpose and has now a past `used by date.` (for many reasons).

So let`s look at 1 Cor. 14: 34 - 35, as you have it to support your theory.

`Let the women keep silence in the churches, for it is not permitted unto them to speak;...` (1 Cor. 14: 34)

According to this theory (women can`t be Pastors) women then can`t publicly in the meeting- testify, read the Bible, pray, sing, prophecy, teach, preach, etc. for they must be silent.

However the Greek word give a different picture.

Silence - Greek, `sigao,` meaning keep silent, hold peace. Why?

Speak - Greek, `laleo,` to talk, an extended or random harangue, (a noisy or pompous address with out a solid sense or argument.)

Thus we realise that Paul is saying that the women are NOT to prattle on and on, and give a noisy, pompous address not based on a solid argument etc.

And personally I see that this theory of women keeping silent in public meetings has NO basis and is demonically inspired.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hi MM,

I was brought up in the Apostolic denomination and know exactly what you are talking about. The point is that public meetings are just that - public and organised by a denomination. It is limited in its effectiveness and is not the way the early church functioned. It is a later model based on a lecture type meeting.

Each denomination was brought about by gathering those who received a certain truth and `guarding` it. Thus Lutherians, (Salvation) Baptists, (Baptism) Methodists, (holy living), Pentecostals, (infilling of the Holy Spirit), Apostolics, ( 5 fold ministries). Thus today we all have received of these truths and hopefully appreciated those who were ostracized or even martyred for standing for a truth.

So small groups who recognize each other`s gifting and function together are more relational I believe, than those in larger groups.

Absolutely. I totally agree. The difference, however, are the resources. When a widow stood up in one of those larger meetings and said that she needed a new roof on her home, but couldn't afford a contractor, there were far more people in the larger group able to assist because of the larger group presence than most any smaller group...unless one of the people in the smaller group happened to have the various means. I had heard one such recount when visiting one of those larger groups. The widow known for being poor and on a fixed income, and so, from the larger group, more men and women went to that house and did what needed going to replace the roof and clean her house for her, with her. Small groups would likely not have had the mix of numbers to accomplish such, and the financial burden would have likely been beyond the small group's means. I realize I'm preaching to the choir here, but it all bears saying...

Public? Yes, and that's where we all live. Both grouping sizes have their advantages and disadvantages. I've experienced both. The presence of the Lord can be in both, especially when openly invited. Our prayer to the Lord in our home fellowship is an invitation to the Lord for Him to join us. We welcome the Lord with open hearts and arms. We may appear charismatic, but the body expression of open arms unto the Lord in prayer far predates charismaticism.

NOTE: That meeting of 3000+ went on for about 10 hours. People came and wet as they needed to go and get something to eat, etc., but it was an opportunity for the believing body to do active, internal ministry toward each other that they had little to no opportunity elsewhere. The one with 300+, they went for about 6 hours before the last of the people trickled off. Both were on Sunday's, much to the disdain of religionists who bicker over which day is the Sabbath. How pathetic indeed. It was about a collective enjoyment of the presence and outflow of the Spirit of God in the midst of an inflow of worship and praise toward Him.

Were there unbelievers there, or those who were lukewarm? Likely. They probably didn't stay very long; leaving early to go out and recreate rather than to be a part of something their wicked hearts couldn't comprehend.

MM