No passages support women pastors or elders!
Are Women Pastors Biblical???
- Thread starter Major
- Start date
The scriptures already have answered this though!
everybody has opinions. based upon scripture much like the osas osnas debate
To a certain degree, however when scriptures have been posed as the basis for a belief, then the discussion needs to be about those scriptures and their actual meaning in the Greek and NOT the English. Just using the English leaves it open to conjecture as English is not as precise as Greek.
Here are the Greek meanings for the scriptures posed as basis for this theory. (posts 55, 62, 70, 80 & 108)
So `silence,` in 1 Tim. 2: 11 refers to `not being meddlesome.` And `authority over,` means `usurping authority.`
And `silent and speak` in 1 Cor. 14: 34 refers to them having an extended or random harangue. (harangue - a noisy or pompous address.)
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i have friend that is woman pastor preacher . i dont go to her tell her she is not of God. if the Holy spirit dont show her the truth .then my words are empty . i only added my 2 cents neither side will budge
As I`ve said before I do not agree that women are able to carry the load of - Pastor, business person, leader and teacher in an organisational setting.
In a house setting, as in the early church the believers all shared together their giftings - `teach and admonish one another...` (Col. 3: 16)
Well, I'll have to disagree with your definition input of "silence" in these verses as meaning "not being meddlesome." That's not the definition the grammatical construct points toward. Thayer's Greek Lexicon says, "2. silence: Acts 22:2; 1 Timothy 2:11f." There are no other alternatives listed in conjunction with that one word. Silence, is silence, is silence. Anything put into the place of that word, well, it's pitted against vast scholarship.
As to 1 Corinthians 14:34, Thayer's says this:
"σιγάω, σίγω; 1 aorist ἐσίγησα; perfect passive participle σεσιγημενος; (σιγή); from Homer down; to keep silence, hold one's peace: Luke 9:36; Luke 18:39 L T Tr WH; (Luke 20:26); Acts 12:17; Acts 15:12; 1 Corinthians 14:28, 30, 34"
Again, no hint of it referring to any "random harangue."
Sorry, but some of the best scholarship doesn't stand on the side of the more liberal renditions of those key words within their grammatical seating, nor in the broader context. Since you gave no bibliography or any vague referencing, I have no idea what you source is. I'd be happy to know, if you're willing to reveal it/them.
MM
Marilyn, I fully agree with you. Men and women in the early Church both could share testimony and giftings. Wonderful stuff.
I don't claim to understand your staunch building of a wall between models, but like I said, before, that's not a hill worth dying on.
There is, however, a vast difference between sharing, and standing in the place of doctrinal authority, which is what the men elders did as bastions against heresies...ensuring the Gospel, as delivered by Paul and Peter, Luke and James, to the people, remained uncorrupted. The elder men in the faith were/are the teachers of doctrine, and therefore are the ones who stood/stand on the wall as watchmen.
Please keep in mind that it's not a matter of ability nor intelligence. What's at stake in all this is what the Lord established in the Church and the home...the Lord who is the Head of the Church, and God over all. The Church does not stand on equal footing with Christ. He alone is the Head, and no other. If one chooses to stand at odds against the Head, that's between that individual and his/her Creator. Three different women attempted to come into our fellowship and usurp a portion of the reigns of doctrinal authority, and the elders shut them down post haste in the midst of their attempting to being in various heresies from liberal theologies and junk scholarship.
MM
Think that those who use men and women not be equal in Christ misunderstand that, as its not stating both can now do same roles and have same authority now,. its that all have equal status in sight of God, and now all share in spiritual blessings the same!
Just is no Biblical evidence that a local assembly had female pastors or leaders in Bible!
There were none shown to be either Pastors or elders in the local churches in the NT!
Yes, I've had many a discussion through the years for the difference between being "in Christ" where our value and salvation in Christ being absolutely the same with no distinctions, and the solid, inviolate distinctions of gender roles within the Church and the home.
Attempts at lumping "into" Christ the doctrinal teaching authority in the Church, and the headship of the husband in the marriage, to try and eradicate the role distinctions between the genders, it all falls flat when we put together what all of scripture has to say on the subject, along with the many examples throughout. It's the same Christ who established the distinctions in gender role functions in those two earthly realms.
Granted, there are a number of highly liberalized works in language and translations today that completely violate the original Greek meanings, as well as Hebrew meanings where it's convenient to force culture and society values into the scriptures and scholarship in the languages. Look at the Webster Dictionary, and compare an early 1900's version with modern versions. The evolution of words in our language is quite striking.
The argument that modern understanding of Greek is better than historic understanding, as the pathway for injecting corrupted translations of key words, that's just another tool of the enemy of our souls. The world has so successfully infiltrated the institutional models to the extent that we've been witnessing the turning away right before our eyes these past few decades. This is the same world that Jesus said will hate us because it first hated Him, and it still does, and always will to the very end of the Millennium, after all are removed from here so that it can all be destroyed, and replaced with a new heavens and new earth.
MM
We have witnesses the aassault of "evangelical Feminism:, which was a fancy term for saying thast some have been attempting to have cultural morals and social norms override tradional understamding of the biblical texts!
Which is NOT saying that either of us view females less then males in any regards, but that God had ordained a pattern of male headship authority in home and local church!
We need to remember that the Holy Spirit agrees with what He wrote in His word. It is not our opinions but what the Holy Spirit actually said in His word. That is what this discussion is about. Scriptures were posted as to the basis of this theory, and that is what I am looking at. To have an honest discussion then that is what we should be looking at.
Let`s have a look at a few different Greek words that are translated `speak.` We can see that the same English word `speak,` has different meanings in the Greek.
Speak - Gk. `epo,` referring to individual expression or speech.
`So he (Apollos)began to speak boldly in the synagogue.` (Acts 18: 26)
Speak - Gk. `lego,` to lay forth, usually of systematic or set discourse.
`I (Jesus) speak to the world those things which I heard from Him, (Father)` (John 8: 26)
Speak - Gk. `laleo,` to talk, an extended or random harangue,(a noisy or pompous address without solid sense or argument.) Strong`s Concordance. 2980 with information in 3004.
`Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, (laleo)` (1 Cor. 14: 34)
The women were not permitted to give an extended or random harangue.
my oly advice to you if you feel you have a calling regardless what has been posted. then you need to operate with in that realm that allows women to preach ..btw what is exactly your tent? you said women didnt need the role of pastor . am i correct ? what role do you think women have in the church ? function
I think you better quote me so I know what you are referring to. Thank you.