Correct and agreed. If anyone places water baptism as an essential to salvation, they are in effect saying that dirty river (Sea, pool etc.) has more saving power to forgive sins than the blood of God.
Let that sink in for a moment!
The judgment seat of Christ: Dividing wheat from tares by works.
- Thread starter Godhelpus
- Start date
Let that sink in for a moment!
Not so cocoa. Water Baptism according to the Scriptures is an act of Obedience.Water baptism is an act of faith (work) and is a necessary step in the salvation process.
Early Christian history teaches baptism. For the remission of sins.
John the apostle died in 100AD.
It can't be that the people who knew the people who knew Jesus got it wrong for a 1000+ years. They also have instruction for infant baptism in the Didache (70AD), less than 40yrs after Christ's death.
50yrs after the death of John the Apostle 》》ca. 150 A.D., Hermas, brother of Pope Saint Pius I, The Shepherd
— Remission of sins; born again through Baptism —
Mandate 4:3:1 “I have heard, sir,” said I, “from some teachers, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.” He said to me, “You have heard rightly, for so it is. …“They had need,” [the shepherd] said, “to come up through the water, so that they might be made alive; for they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5), except by putting away the mortality of their former life. These also, then, who had fallen asleep, received the seal of the Son of God, and entered into the kingdom of God.
21 Centuries — Behold The Truth
www.beholdthetruth.com
Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.
Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.
With all due respect and love, may I say to you that You are posting Roman Catholic dogma instead of Bible Scriptures and that can be very dangerous.
Bible refers to that as when nations shall be judged by God based upon how they treated Israel in last days
I agree. The question is why they refused the mark of the beast. If they have been listening to the 144,000 preaching the word and accepted Jesus as their savior then that is their salvation, however, if they just don't trust the government then they died in their sins, unforgiven.
I should have been more clear. When I said " work" I meant in obedience. Works based salvation goes against the gospel for sure. Yes, it is Catholic but also biblical. Faith is taught as an action word not merely believing but living out your faith in obedience. Its in this way that works in James 2 is understood, living out our faith, with works, not for merit but as an extension of Christ's love and to bring glory to God. Orthodoxy also shares this view.
Now take the time to think it through. Not what you have been told but what the Bible says.
Ephesians 2:8-9......
""For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.".
Do you really think in your deepest heart that baptism is water through faith as an ACTION is something we must do to be saved.
Where in Ephesians 2:8-9 is that stated!
The Bible says that we are not to add "anything whatsoever to the salvation experience"! That would include baptism, or a ritual, or reciting something, or walking a mile or visiting someone or making potato salad for lunch. Nothing is required.
Last edited:
Hey buddy! Where in the world have YOU been?????
I believe that the Bible says that the Bema seat is only for believers and takes place after the Rapture.
The Great white Throne Judgment is for non-believers and in Rev. 20:11-15 is the final judgment prior to the lost being cast into the lake of fire.
The Judgment of Nations is he sheep and the goats or a judgment as seen in Matt. 25:31-36 and it takes place after the tribulation period but prior to the millennium.
Last edited:
If any can show it, then I'd be glad to be rid of it. However, I spent many years like Paul, learning how not to believe and preach our own law and righteousness.
Right. And as with all false doctrine, we can see the argument is more philosophic and esoteric than just plain Scripture. I have found that if something needs more time to explain than to teach, then it's usually our own form of religion.
Exactly. Their real purpose is to command a formula of water baptism, as you say, in order to proselytize all believers into their special churches.
Mat 23:15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Of a trinitarian Pentecostal sect, not oneness.
You said.......
"And as with all false doctrine, we can see the argument is more philosophic and esoteric than just plain Scripture".
With all due respect my friend, your comments are in fact false teachings based more on YOUR wants than said in Scripture.
Concerning baptism in "Jesus name only", you said............
"Their real purpose is to command a formula of water baptism, as you say, in order to proselytize all believers into their special churches."
Formula???? Are you aware that those who hold to the Trinitarian formula most certainly do not consider such a baptism to be valid. That is because Trinitarians recognize Oneness believers as Modalists, and modalism was named a heresy in the third century. Considering that up until the year 1826 the Catholic Church used to execute heretics, I would assume that they would not consider those individuals Christian today unless they were re-baptized using the traditional formula.
You then said..........
"Of a trinitarian Pentecostal sect, not oneness."
Again, I am not arguing with you or disrespecting you, but what you are posting is more Oneness theology than anything else.
Example...You said =
"Exactly. Their real purpose is to command a formula of water baptism, as you say, in order to proselytize all believers into their special churches. "
And then used Mat. 23:15 to validate your comment........
Mat 23:15Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Now what does Matt. 23:15 have to do with a baptism formula that you said was needed? NOTHING!
Now my question about a formula that YOU said is needed, isnt that exactly what we see in Matthew 28:19...........
"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:"
I'm not trying to derail the thread but I have lots of questions.
So baptism is optional or strongly encouraged but not necessary? What about communion? Can one opt out, simply because they don't want to?
It's not an addition... It seems we have 2 different understandings of the scripture. I'm of the teaching of baptismal regeneration Romans 6, Mark 16, Galatians 3 and baptism for the remission of sins which was a belief held by all Christians and was confirmed in the Nicene creed.
in essence what he is teaching is reject the mark of the beast.. you will be beheaded and will be a martyred .
the wheat is the born again believers tares have been sowed by the enemy darnel fake wheat.. if i am the only one who stands by this tis ok i stand
What matters the most is that we "learn" the Word of God.
Yes....baptism is strongly encouraged but is not essential to being saved. It is something that we as Christians should do and I highly recommend it. It tells the observing world that there has been an inward change in your life.
Now, think about a couple of things here. Your brother is not a saved man. You have witnessed to him many times but he always has and excuse to not accept Christ. Then one day he has a heart attack and can not walk or move and is on his death bed. You speak to him one last time and low and behold he accepts Jesus, prays the sinners prayer and dies. He was not baptised ......does he go to heaven or is he going to be rejected because he was not placed under water.
Roman's 10:9....."“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
Here is another one. One the day of an upcoming battle. You speak with your friends in the fox hole and all 3 of them say the sinners prayer, accepting Jesus as the Christ. In the next instant, a mortal hits and kills all three of them before they could be wet with water. Do they go to heaven?
Now..........these are example of what I have personally seen and been involved in! Just sit for a minute and think about these events.
Communion is a precious time for any believer and it should partaken in with great joy and humility. No one who is a born again believer should reject the communion event.
Now......you believe in baptisamal regeneration because you have been brought up in the Catholic church and I have to be careful in that I do not want to put the RCC down. However, the Bible Scriptures do not teach baptismal regeneration.
Yes.....I agree that there are a few Scriptures upon a quick reading seem to say that but when we dig deeper and consider ALL the Scriptures we come to the conclusion that salvation is only by the shed blood of Jes and not the application of water.
If....IF we say, imply or insist on water baptism, not matter how it is looked at....that is an addition to the act of Jesus shedding His blood to pay for YOUR Sins.
Why does this come up all the time????? Because all men are in sin and all men must be freed from slavery to sin.
WE cannot free ourself, but we must be freed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
Here is the problem..........This is an offensive truth to the unregenerate man, as the response from these would-be self-made disciples indicates. Men do not like to hear that they are, in fact, totally dependent upon God’s grace for salvation.
Talk to any unsaved man and tell him to his face that he is a SINNER! What happens????? Anger! Rejection!
Not only does the un-regenerated man not want to hear that they are a sinner, they do not want to know that they are incapable of saving themselves, or even of coming unto Christ for salvation, outside of God’s gracious drawing (John 6:44).
That is the Old Nature of sin whose best friend is PRIDE!
But as the Lord Himself said, we are slaves to sin and only His blood sets Slaves free.....Not water.
And he is correct and I agree 100%. LOL, as if David Jeremiah needed my approval) However, that only applies to those who have never heard the gospel and come to Christ during the 7 year Tribulation period.
Well, I am not going to argue with you but I am in agreement with Marylin.
In Matthew 25:32 the subjects of this divine judgment of Nations are clearly declared to be “all nations.” The passage is actually translated correctly as “all Gentiles” as the Greek word is ethne. This is a common word found frequently in the Bible and generally used of non-Jewish races.
According to the Scriptures, as all Gentiles are gathered before Christ to be judged they are divided into two classes, one described as “sheep” and the other designated “goats.”
According to Matthew 25:33, ............“he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.”
communion is for those saved water baptism follows those who truly go saved
im not sure what the lol is i was asking of your view on the subject
your correct on the judgment of nations ..my only thought what makes a nation people do ...they elect a Government..
wheat represent those truly saved the tares are the false christians parable wheat tares is easy to see Israel is not saved.. while there are christian jews Jesus is teaching real and fake the fake blend in look act just like the real.. at harvest Christ will separate i am not arguing either . i am stating what i see and read .. i am always open to being shown different.. but i find nothing in concept of what your saying..
matthew 13:41-43
41;The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42;And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43;Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
i also do study with jay vernon mcgee and he is in agreement with my point.. i do trust his teaching but find some things i split off with him..
he holds to the rope tied to the high priest when he entered the holy of hollies he did say it was a jewish tradition. i cant say i can go by that due to its not in the Bible
iam will to discuss much like the bema seat has been ..
41;The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42;And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43;Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
i also do study with jay vernon mcgee and he is in agreement with my point.. i do trust his teaching but find some things i split off with him..
he holds to the rope tied to the high priest when he entered the holy of hollies he did say it was a jewish tradition. i cant say i can go by that due to its not in the Bible
iam will to discuss much like the bema seat has been ..
Jesus explains the wheat and tares...
Matthew 13: 37-40
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Since this is the end of the world, it seems to me that this is speaking of the great white throne judgement. The tares being burned in the fire seems to be a reference to the lake of fire which is the second death. The use of the word tares is important because they look exactly the same as the wheat, until they mature. Then only the wheat bears fruit, the tares do not. Everyone that goes into the millenium gets the same treatment, a forced righteousness (sort of), but not everyone responds by accepting Jesus. There are those that will still reject Him and rise up against Him at the end and will be consumed with fire from Heaven.
Matthew 13: 37-40
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Since this is the end of the world, it seems to me that this is speaking of the great white throne judgement. The tares being burned in the fire seems to be a reference to the lake of fire which is the second death. The use of the word tares is important because they look exactly the same as the wheat, until they mature. Then only the wheat bears fruit, the tares do not. Everyone that goes into the millenium gets the same treatment, a forced righteousness (sort of), but not everyone responds by accepting Jesus. There are those that will still reject Him and rise up against Him at the end and will be consumed with fire from Heaven.
This is why the thief of the cross example fails for me... he wasn't baptized because he literally could not be. The exception can't also be the rule. This view of baptism is always under extreme circumstances. I'm talking about the person who just doesn't want to or is putting it off for years and years. Someone who can't be baptized is different from someone who won't be baptized.