10 virgin parable

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calvin said:
OKAY.
If that is what you want to believe in spite of evidence to the contrary who am I to argue with such a learned fellow.
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I wish I was learned --by that I mean college educated-- but I appreciate the complement (I think lol) :). Calvin you have good points but when you really search the scripture and dig deep, you literally have a supernatural experience with Gods word. It is like the parable of the man who discovered the pearl of a great price. Just my testimony.

p.s. I am not trying to imply that you do not have this experience or anything.

Blessings,

MoG
 
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Actually I found some great comments from everyone on this topic. I think this reveals something I also find when their is a real anointing on a preacher. The Lord through them speaks different to many persons and many persons take home with them what the Lord needed for them at that point in their growth faith to faith and glory to glory! Hallelujah!

But as one person indicated there is often more than one application also...for example just from the story of Namaan the Strian I have heard great messages related to faith, baptism, humility, and more.

In His love
Paul
 
the number "10" in Jewish custom was that when 10 people got together as believers, it was required that they build a separate synagogue for that congregation. The 10 virgins were most likely from the same Church. How many Churches goers do we know that attend the same Church, and out of them all, are they all "real" believers, or only say they are, and only look the part. We know that 5 of the "virgins" were foolish, and never really knew the Lord, but they thought they did. Jesus tells us this....

Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
 
Calvin got me thinking about this more.... Thinking of WEDDINGS and not Oil.... The parable is about WEDDINGS - not about OIL.....

The parable doesn't say that the 5 foolish virgins got rejected because they had no Oil...
The bridegroom did NOT show up and reject 5 virgins in the chamber because they didn't have enough oil.... He took ALL the virgins that he found in the chamber.

They were not part of the wedding because they were not THERE when the Bridegroom showed up because they had LEFT and were off looking for Oil in the middle of the night..... The Foolish Virgins were the ones who DECIDED to leave... They heard the Shout from the Bridegroom and his friends - they get all worried about their oil... and they LEAVE to go get oil right when the Bridegroom is arriving to take them.....

In that context - their rejection makes SENSE... The Bridegroom comes to get his betrothed Virgins. He finds 5 - so he takes 5... Then - sometime later in the middle of the night - 5 MORE virgins show up at his house claiming to be betrothed to him - and THEY are rejected....

Their Rejection NOW makes sense... Who are you people knocking on my door? I came to the agreed place, my men gave the Shout - and some people went running the OTHER DIRECTION... Obviously - if they went running the OTHER DIRECTION - they weren't part of the wedding.... I found 5 and I brought all 5 with me.... Who are these EXTRA random people knocking on my door in the middle of the night when I am getting married and NOW claiming to be part of this wedding?

Now.... In this context - think about what the parable is getting at....

When it's time for YOU to show up - SHOW UP... Don't get tied up in minor details, preparations, all this and that and LOSE your shot. When you are called to present yourself Before God DO IT NOW! Don't get tied up in all this and that secondary stuff. If you are the Bride - then YOU are the main attraction - not all the other minutia.... The bridegroom isn't showing up to get Oil or whatnot - he is showing up to get the Bride....

Wrap this back to the Book of Esther.... Queen Vashti was summoned by the King. She didn't go. Doesn't matter how good or bad her motives were, or how busy she was doing "The King's Business".... He called her and she didn't show up - and she was rejected.

Or think of Mary and Martha if you like instead... Mary was sitting and listening while Martha was busy preparing.... Martha was tied up worrying about the details and lost out on HEARING the Messiah....

Thanks
 
but He rejected them because He NEVER knew them, not did but they were not ready or that they did not elicit the correct response! Vashti WAS his queen already, and Martha was never rejected, so the IMHO the analogy does not hold.
 
It's an arranged marriage with TEN betrothed virgins and one bridegroom... Most likely he didn't know ANY of them before the wedding....

Look at verse 25:11 - Sometime later, the 5 foolish virgins show up at the wedding yammering about oil... Nobody at the wedding cares anything about Oil..... They care about the brides and the groom.... But... The brides and the groom are ALREADY married - and these extra people show up claiming to be part of the action....

How long LATER was this? It doesn't say.. It could have been 3 days later for all we know, and now, the foolish virgins decide that they are ready NOW to be married....

Sorry, that's not how it works.... If people at the wedding got married and you didn't - then you aren't the bride or the groom....

Now think of verse 25:13 - Be ready... This is not physical preparation, but mental preparation... If he can show up at ANY moment - then he can show up when YOU are not ready... BUT - that's when HE is showing up... You have a choice to make... If you decide he is showing up for YOU - then you can go without worrying... If you decide he is showing up for a list of qualifications and preparations - then YOU CAN'T GO without worrying about all the inconsequential details.... Are your teeth brushed, do you have new underwear, is the stove turned off, is the backup sunday school leader prepared, who is going to bring the kids home from school, do I have enough oil, have I done enough good works.....
 
The parable starts with this "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like....". I think this is the key verse to put the parable in right context. We can draw so many valid applications. But the context of verse would show us why Jesus used this parable. He is talking about kingdom of heaven. Mathew uses kingdom of heaven instead of kingdom of God.. Pretty much the parable is show what would happen after this side of the world.. What would happen for eternity. How we should be prepared for return of Christ.. That is the key message here.. The same goes with next parable.. Parable of talents.. Message out of both these parables are same.. And we can draw numerous applications, which would all be legit..
 
I've really been wrestling with this for weeks. So let's go over the words.

The Greek for "foolish" can mean "godless". "Slumbered" can also mean negligent or careless and "slept" can also mean indifferent to one's salvation, yield to sin, be slothful, which all ten did. It's also a euphemism for death. The oil is specifically olive oil, which is used for lighting lamps, healing the sick, anointing the head and body, and used in commerce. The lamp "going out" can be a metaphor to quench by divine influence. To "buy" can also mean to loiter at the market, to lounge there. But of these, the most interesting is the word ready. It can also mean to receive one coming. The warning from Jesus is to Watch, which means: give strict attention to, be cautious, active , to take heed lest through remission and indolence some destructive calamity suddenly overtake one.

Now to whom was Jesus telling this story to? The disciples, Matt 24:3. Since I firmly believe you cannot lose your salvation, then what's the other suggestion? The foolish were not really saved. This is reiterated by Paul:

2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV)
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?​

This reminds me of another verse:

2 Timothy 4:7-8 (KJV)
I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

Interesting...
Remember "buy" could also mean to receive one coming... So then Jesus also said:

Luke 21:36 (KJV)
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

@CCW95A may have a point, but it could also mean that they just were not going in the rapture and therefore just not part of the bride. We know that there will be Christians in the tribulation, no less than 144,000, male virgin Jews. But what of those left behind (and I don't mean the movie or books :( ) We know that people survive the tribulation because they'll have kids in the millenium, Isa 65:20. With all the warnings, show me where it's a right to be raptured; Jesus says to pray you're accounted worthy, that means we've got work to do. Just my thoughts.
 
Abdicate said:
I've really been wrestling with this for weeks. So let's go over the words.

The Greek for "foolish" can mean "godless". "Slumbered" can also mean negligent or careless and "slept" can also mean indifferent to one's salvation, yield to sin, be slothful, which all ten did. It's also a euphemism for death. The oil is specifically olive oil, which is used for lighting lamps, healing the sick, anointing the head and body, and used in commerce. The lamp "going out" can be a metaphor to quench by divine influence. To "buy" can also mean to loiter at the market, to lounge there. But of these, the most interesting is the word ready. It can also mean to receive one coming. The warning from Jesus is to Watch, which means: give strict attention to, be cautious, active , to take heed lest through remission and indolence some destructive calamity suddenly overtake one.

Now to whom was Jesus telling this story to? The disciples, Matt 24:3. Since I firmly believe you cannot lose your salvation, then what's the other suggestion? The foolish were not really saved. This is reiterated by Paul:

2 Corinthians 13:5 (KJV)
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?​

This reminds me of another verse:

2 Timothy 4:7-8 (KJV)
I have fought a good fight, I have finished [my] course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.​

Interesting...
Remember "buy" could also mean to receive one coming... So then Jesus also said:

Luke 21:36 (KJV)
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.​

@CCW95A may have a point, but it could also mean that they just were not going in the rapture and therefore just not part of the bride. We know that there will be Christians in the tribulation, no less than 144,000, male virgin Jews. But what of those left behind (and I don't mean the movie or books :( ) We know that people survive the tribulation because they'll have kids in the millenium, Isa 65:20. With all the warnings, show me where it's a right to be raptured; Jesus says to pray you're accounted worthy, that means we've got work to do. Just my thoughts.
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You already know my perspective on salvation--that I believe that the gift can be lost (heb 10:26). I am not trying to open a thread on that discussion but I wonder sometimes if the debate on freewill vs predestination is semantics. In other words, are we giving different titles to the same meaning.

For example, we agree that we should examine ourselves to see whether we be within the faith (2 cor 13:5). Your perspective might be that a "Christian" should examine himself to see if he really experienced salvation. On the contrary, I would say that if that person came to Christ, he would need to periodically examine himself to ensure he is still in the faith and has not wandered astray. At the end of the day, both of us as Christians would still be examining ourselves and it would accomplish the same result: sanctification.

When I discuss my doctrine with others, I often observe that we often agree on everything but the terms. Now, if I wanted to take the thread to a practical level, I might ask what is the standard we use to examine ourselves? But I won't ;)
 
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Man-ofGod said:
I believe that the gift can be lost (heb 10:26)
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Then I guess no one can be saved, because no one stops sinning unless the law saying that "it" is no longer illegal to do so.

Man-ofGod said:
it would accomplish the same result: sanctification.
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Sanctification: to be made Holy. Sin again, even in ignorance, you lose it... according to your definition, then according the you, you also lose your salvation because once you lose it, it's gone forever, Heb 10:26. So I guess no one then can be truly saved - let's party! :cool:

Man-ofGod said:
I might ask what is the standard we use to examine ourselves?
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You did, so I'll tell you: examine yourself. It's an open book test, Heb 11:1.

So where do these people fit in your scenario?
Some people's garments in heaven will smell of smoke, 1 Cor 3:15. Since they lost it all, yet they are saved tells me that their destination really wasn't what is in question, but what they did or didn't do. Doing God's will won't allow you to lose anything, but if you don't do God's will then you must be sinning so according to you, they're not saved either. Well, the word of God says otherwise. You can't have it both ways. You have a choice even not choosing to examine yourself is a choice and you'll suffer the consequences.

P.S. Thanks for hijacking the thread... :(
 
Abdicate said:
Then I guess no one can be saved, because no one stops sinning unless the law saying that "it" is no longer illegal to do so.


Sanctification: to be made Holy. Sin again, even in ignorance, you lose it... according to your definition, then according the you, you also lose your salvation because once you lose it, it's gone forever, Heb 10:26. So I guess no one then can be truly saved - let's party! :cool:


You did, so I'll tell you: examine yourself. It's an open book test, Heb 11:1.

So where do these people fit in your scenario?
Some people's garments in heaven will smell of smoke, 1 Cor 3:15. Since they lost it all, yet they are saved tells me that their destination really wasn't what is in question, but what they did or didn't do. Doing God's will won't allow you to lose anything, but if you don't do God's will then you must be sinning so according to you, they're not saved either. Well, the word of God says otherwise. You can't have it both ways. You have a choice even not choosing to examine yourself is a choice and you'll suffer the consequences.

P.S. Thanks for hijacking the thread... :(
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Abdicate my friend, you missed the point of my post which was designed to show the underlying agreement despite our superficial differences. You can have the last word here since I really was not interested in "hijacking the thread."
 
Brother Paul said:
but He rejected them because He NEVER knew them, not did but they were not ready or that they did not elicit the correct response!
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I don't know what paraphrase you might be using Paul, but the text clearly states than the Bride groom :::
Mat 25:12 But he answered, 'Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
Clearly this is present tense and not to be confused with other teachings of Jesus.
 
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JohnC said:
The parable doesn't say that the 5 foolish virgins got rejected because they had no Oil...
The bridegroom did NOT show up and reject 5 virgins in the chamber because they didn't have enough oil.... He took ALL the virgins that he found in the chamber.

They were not part of the wedding because they were not THERE when the Bridegroom showed up because they had LEFT and were off looking for Oil in the middle of the night..... The Foolish Virgins were the ones who DECIDED to leave... They heard the Shout from the Bridegroom and his friends - they get all worried about their oil... and they LEAVE to go get oil right when the Bridegroom is arriving to take them.....

In that context - their rejection makes SENSE... The Bridegroom comes to get his betrothed Virgins. He finds 5 - so he takes 5... Then - sometime later in the middle of the night - 5 MORE virgins show up at his house claiming to be betrothed to him - and THEY are rejected....

Their Rejection NOW makes sense... Who are you people knocking on my door? I came to the agreed place, my men gave the Shout - and some people went running the OTHER DIRECTION... Obviously - if they went running the OTHER DIRECTION - they weren't part of the wedding.... I found 5 and I brought all 5 with me.... Who are these EXTRA random people knocking on my door in the middle of the night when I am getting married and NOW claiming to be part of this wedding?

Now.... In this context - think about what the parable is getting at....

When it's time for YOU to show up - SHOW UP... Don't get tied up in minor details, preparations, all this and that and LOSE your shot. When you are called to present yourself Before God DO IT NOW! Don't get tied up in all this and that secondary stuff. If you are the Bride - then YOU are the main attraction - not all the other minutia.... The bridegroom isn't showing up to get Oil or whatnot - he is showing up to get the Bride....
<<SNIP>>
Or think of Mary and Martha if you like instead... Mary was sitting and listening while Martha was busy preparing.... Martha was tied up worrying about the details and lost out on HEARING the Messiah....

Thanks
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I believe you nailed it John.(y)
 
Abdicate said:
Now to whom was Jesus telling this story to? The disciples, Matt 24:3. Since I firmly believe you cannot lose your salvation, then what's the other suggestion? The foolish were not really saved. This is reiterated by Paul:
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I think we need to distinguish here between your soul being saved and you inheriting or walking into God's best plan for you....

If you think back to the Exodus from Egypt and the first generation's failure to enter the land - what do you see? God "Redeemed" every one of them out of Egypt... Though they did not inherit - neither did God send them BACK to Egypt.... The entire 40-years they wandered - He still fed, clothed, and took care of all their needs....

But... On THAT DAY when God called them to action - and they dee-dawdled around, got worried, decided to think it over, worried about giants and walled cities and whatnot... They started thinking of themselves, their preparations, and their own readiness instead of God's readiness....

They were in a sense the "Foolish Virgins" - they started thinking of all the OTHER things to worry about and put God's plan for Today on the shelf because of their own concerns and feelings of readiness.... They in effect told God - Hold on now, I decide when I am ready before I can come do this whole "Conquer" thing...... and when they did finally get back around to deciding "Ok, we have talked it over, we decided that we are OK with this whole God thing" - it was too late... Their chance had passed - because, now, God was no longer ready... Just like the foolish virgins who see the bridegroom coming for them and decide that the *Best Possible* course of action at that specific moment is to leave and go get oil for their lamps.... When those virgins finally get back around to deciding they are ready - the Bridegroom is gone and the marriage is over....

It's the lack of perspective... What is your REAL priority and whose readiness is really in question? If this parable is about You "Having Oil" - then we are in serious trouble - because that means we must maintain ourselves in peak preparation at every single moment - on the toilet, in bed with the wife, caught the flu, weakness, sin, just got fired from work.... doesn't matter - you had better maintain the ENTIRE checklist at 100% complete at every single moment.... and he might come for us when we are out GETTING OIL so that we have the Oil on the checklist....

But... If it's a parable about Perspective and mental readiness - that you better get it right in your mind WHAT the bridegroom is coming for... That he's coming for YOU - not the Oil and not the Laundry list of qualifications and preparations.... That God's own readiness TODAY will overcome your own lack thereof... Then it's pretty clear that the focus is to maintain your MIND in a state where you are OK with immediately dumping everything undone and incomplete and leaving when God says "It's time NOW"..... because your personal preparation and readiness checklist will NEVER be 100% complete....

If you fail to do that - then that doesn't mean you forsake your eternal salvation - but it does mean that you will have to live with the consequences....
 
JohnC said:
I think we need to distinguish here between your soul being saved and you inheriting or walking into God's best plan for you....

If you think back to the Exodus from Egypt and the first generation's failure to enter the land - what do you see? God "Redeemed" every one of them out of Egypt... Though they did not inherit - neither did God send them BACK to Egypt.... The entire 40-years they wandered - He still fed, clothed, and took care of all their needs....

But... On THAT DAY when God called them to action - and they dee-dawdled around, got worried, decided to think it over, worried about giants and walled cities and whatnot... They started thinking of themselves, their preparations, and their own readiness instead of God's readiness....

They were in a sense the "Foolish Virgins" - they started thinking of all the OTHER things to worry about and put God's plan for Today on the shelf because of their own concerns and feelings of readiness.... They in effect told God - Hold on now, I decide when I am ready before I can come do this whole "Conquer" thing...... and when they did finally get back around to deciding "Ok, we have talked it over, we decided that we are OK with this whole God thing" - it was too late... Their chance had passed - because, now, God was no longer ready... Just like the foolish virgins who see the bridegroom coming for them and decide that the *Best Possible* course of action at that specific moment is to leave and go get oil for their lamps.... When those virgins finally get back around to deciding they are ready - the Bridegroom is gone and the marriage is over....

It's the lack of perspective... What is your REAL priority and whose readiness is really in question? If this parable is about You "Having Oil" - then we are in serious trouble - because that means we must maintain ourselves in peak preparation at every single moment - on the toilet, in bed with the wife, caught the flu, weakness, sin, just got fired from work.... doesn't matter - you had better maintain the ENTIRE checklist at 100% complete at every single moment.... and he might come for us when we are out GETTING OIL so that we have the Oil on the checklist....

But... If it's a parable about Perspective and mental readiness - that you better get it right in your mind WHAT the bridegroom is coming for... That he's coming for YOU - not the Oil and not the Laundry list of qualifications and preparations.... That God's own readiness TODAY will overcome your own lack thereof... Then it's pretty clear that the focus is to maintain your MIND in a state where you are OK with immediately dumping everything undone and incomplete and leaving when God says "It's time NOW"..... because your personal preparation and readiness checklist will NEVER be 100% complete....

If you fail to do that - then that doesn't mean you forsake your eternal salvation - but it does mean that you will have to live with the consequences....
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Isn't that what I said? Yes it is.
 
calvin said:
I believe you nailed it John.(y)
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This parable really shows us the "condition" of those who are truly children of God, and those who are not.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

It was not that the five foolish virgins were caught off guard, but that they were never children of light to begin with, or that day would not have over taken them as a thief in the night.
 
CCW95A said:
It was not that the five foolish virgins were caught off guard, but that they were never children of light to begin with, or that day would not have over taken them as a thief in the night.
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Then the oil they needed comes down to a matter of works...I think not. Jesus completes this parable with the advice:::
Matt 25:13. Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.
This doesn't speak of some being saved some not being saved in the sense 'wheat' and 'tars'.
How does 'Watch'ing transform a person into a child of light?
There are lots of things that can be inferred from this and many other parables but that doesn't mean they are all the true meanings. For example, and I stress this is only an example,
"If you are looking for wives, pick only the ones that provide you with proof that they are good house keepers. The ones that buy ahead are the ones you want. The bad house keepers, typified by the five foolish virgins do not plan ahead and are going to be rushing around buying groceries at a time when they are needed in the home." While this observation might have some merit, it is not what the Parable is meant to be teaching.
Clearly v13 tells us what the parable is about. "Be prepared at all times" and that is hardly advice to give to children of darkness along with children of light. The children of darkness need first to come into the light....then they need to keep watch.
We can all play heaps of 'what ifs'...what if each of the foolish ones had just walked with one with plenty of oil? yeah that should work, walking by the light of her lamp. But if she is rejected because her lamp has gone out, how would that work because once they reach the house they don't need their lamps anyway....so who's to know?
NO, we just need to stick with the Master's teaching......"Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour", and this seems to be the criteria between being wise and being foolish.
As somebody, (Abdicate I think ) pointed out, Jesus was talking to His disciples...go back to ........
Matt 24:3. As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
A disciple is a 'learner', a 'pupil' reasonably, a follower. If a disciple can be a child of darkness and watching changes all that then maybe you and bro Paul could be right. But I'll just put my money on Jesus and V13.
 
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