Afterlife

What is your belief about Hell?

  • Eternal Torment

    Votes: 12 50.0%

  • Annihilation

    Votes: 3 12.5%

  • Universal Salvation/Reconciliation

    Votes: 1 4.2%

  • Other

    Votes: 8 33.3%
  • Total voters
    24
Mark 9:48 is very clear.

Where thier worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


the worms that dieth not are maggots eating you. The fire that is not quenched is eternal, never ending.
 
Where is the Messiah said:
Calvinism in 5 points:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
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Does choice matter? Do we have free will?
 
@MMurphy You are a victim of a misunderstanding of the word fear which has a double meaning. One is terror and the other is in awe as in reverence.

@Dave Lucas
Revelation 21:4 (KJV)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There won't be an sorry because there won't be any remembrance of those lost. But according to your thinking every evil person will be in heaven some day. This is completely wrong. Eternity is expressed by the double wording of "forever AND ever".

Revelation 14:11 (KJV)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

@Where is the Messiah I'm sorry, but Calvinism is just evil. I don't want to get into it, but read this http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/03/whats-wrong-with-calvinism/
 
Abdicate said:
@MMurphy You are a victim of a misunderstanding of the word fear which has a double meaning. One is terror and the other is in awe as in reverence.

@Dave Lucas
Revelation 21:4 (KJV)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There won't be an sorry because there won't be any remembrance of those lost. But according to your thinking every evil person will be in heaven some day. This is completely wrong. Eternity is expressed by the double wording of "forever AND ever".

Revelation 14:11 (KJV)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

@Where is the Messiah I'm sorry, but Calvinism is just evil. I don't want to get into it, but read this http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/03/whats-wrong-with-calvinism/
Click to expand...

I read half of it. Can you tell me what you consider to be evil about calvinism?
 
Abdicate said:
Revelation 21:4 (KJV)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

There won't be an sorry because there won't be any remembrance of those lost. But according to your thinking every evil person will be in heaven some day. This is completely wrong. Eternity is expressed by the double wording of "forever AND ever".

Revelation 14:11 (KJV)
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Click to expand...

Let us begin with the inaccuracy of the highlighted statement.

I never espoused that idea. I believe in a total end to evil. It will be done away with, destroyed utterly. As The King said in Matthew 10:28.

Now let's get to the meat and cease with the milk in this thread.

1. Is God good?
2. Can God do evil things?
3. If God does things that evil doers do can he be God?

Have at it. Let's really get down to the heart of the matter.
 
Where is the Messiah said:
I read half of it. Can you tell me what you consider to be evil about calvinism?
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It's not biblical! And as I said, I won't debate it because it's not biblical.

[Deu 30:19-20 KJV] 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
 
Dave Lucas said:
Let us begin with the inaccuracy of the highlighted statement.

I never espoused that idea. I believe in a total end to evil. It will be done away with, destroyed utterly. As The King said in Matthew 10:28.

Now let's get to the meat and cease with the milk in this thread.

1. Is God good?
2. Can God do evil things?
3. If God does things that evil doers do can he be God?

Have at it. Let's really get down to the heart of the matter.
Click to expand...
[Ecc 12:7 KJV] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The soul isn't mentioned because:

[1Co 15:44-49 KJV] 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So let's look at these examples of "for ever and ever" and how you seem to pick and choose that not all men will be in the Lake of Fire for ever and ever...

[Exo 15:18 KJV] 18 The LORD shall reign for ever and ever.
[Psa 9:5 KJV] 5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
[Psa 10:16 KJV] 16 The LORD [is] King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
[Psa 45:6 KJV] 6 Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom [is] a right sceptre.
[Phl 4:20 KJV] 20 Now unto God and our Father [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.
[1Ti 1:17 KJV] 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, [be] honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
[Rev 11:15 KJV] 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
[Rev 14:11 KJV] 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[Rev 20:10 KJV] 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
[Rev 22:5 KJV] 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

If you study the times in which God visits His, you'll find a GREAT and TERRIBLE darkness. Wait! God is Light, how is that possible? It's because God is so pure, the all of our impurities (even as Christians in our flesh) are reflected back to us like a mirror:

[1Co 13:12 KJV] 12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

So for those who refuse God's gift, they will be surrounded by God's purity without His anoinment so what He rejects (those that rejected Him) having that imperfection, those impurities, sin, all evil reflected back to themselves. That is the torment, that is the burning that lasts for ever and ever. Sicn our prayers are like incence to God ascending to Heaven (Psalm 141:2), their smoke of torment is their cries of anguish ascend for ever and ever (Rev 14:11).
 
MMurphy said:
Faith, Doubt, Certainty and Fear

As I've been following this thread the past few days, a few posts have been in my opinion very erroneous. In Post 176, Major said, "If doubt is not the opposite of faith, then why did Jesus come to Thomas and have him touch His body? Thomas doubted my friend!!!"

There is a serious problem with telling people that they will be certain when they accept Jesus. And let's say you're right, well then everyone accepts Jesus and becomes certain about it. But that happens regardless of what you say. Now let's consider if you're wrong, well then now people accept Jesus waiting for some divine vision or appearance and when it doesn't happen, they apostatize because they expected something to happen and it didn't. Now, of course I am sure Thomas was awarded that grace of certainty, but he was also an Apostle and I think it would be highly erroneous to suggest that any of us are that important. As Paul says in Galatians 6:3--"For if a man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." So, it is best not to give people false expectations about an especially rare occurrence. I myself have never experienced a divine presence and I don't think most people ever will in this life.

Furthermore, Euphemia said, "The opposite of faith is fear." This is also untrue, because if it were, we would all be either devoid of faith or breaking God's commandant to "Fear the Lord your God." Romans 11:21 makes it clear that no one should think too highly of himself, "For if God did not spare the natural branches (which He broke off so that you could be grafted in), he will not spare you either." Revelations also speaks about names being blotted out of the book of life and Jesus speaks about the deception "even of God's elect". So in that case you are wrong because fear is an integral aspect of faith. In any case it also grammatically incorrect.
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The conversation that brought this post was about doubt being a lack of faith which lead me to say in post 176,,,,,,,
"If doubt is not the opposite of faith, then why did Jesus come to Thomas and have him touch His body? Thomas doubted my friend!!!"

MMurphy then states here....."There is a serious problem with telling people that they will be certain when they accept Jesus."

Then he says..........................."And let's say you're right, well then everyone accepts Jesus and becomes certain about it."

Instead of what I or MMurphy says, what say we believe what the Scriptures say about this.

John 1:12.....
"Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God".

John 3:36.....
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him".

John 5:24.....
I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, he has crossed over from death to life".

1 John 5:11-13...
"And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life".

Now then, anyone can disagree with me because Lord knows that I am not an authority on the Scriptures, however, I do have the ability to read and understand what the Word of God says and it says clearly to me that I CAN KNOW FOR CERTAIN THAT I AM A CHILD OF GOD without any doubt. When all doubt is removed.......what then is left, TOTAL FAITH and certainty that the Bible is the Word of God and is always correct!
 
MMurphy said:
I'll try to do it justice; it essentially rejects the notion of free will and declares that God, being the sovereign being that He is, has "elected" some to be saved and others has predestined to damnation. And there is nothing we can do to unravel that destiny.
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That is the "L" of the "Tulip" doctrine of Calvinism and it is not Biblical. God never ever predestined anyone to go to hell.

Eternal location for all men is a matter of choice.
 
MMurphy said:
Empty Seats on the Ark of Salvation

There have also been a few posts here that have been extremely troubling to me. It brings to mind an image of wayward souls scrambling to reach an Ark as the floods barrel in, and there are some on the boat that are weeping and praying that all the souls that they are loosing will somehow find their way, or that God will intercede for them, and then there are those who are indifferent saying, "Well, scripture told us this would happen, better get over it." Well, the mere fact that it was prophesied does not make it any less traumatic, and some of you seem to think more along the lines of it being glorious to God that people perish rather than a horrific failure by those God called to get everyone on that boat.

In post 176, Major said, "I do agree with you that I hope everyone makes it to heaven, however that is not reality neither is it Biblical. There actually will be more people in hell than in heaven and that is what Jesus said to us. I am going to have to believe Him!"

In this way you preclude the fact that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole which he often did. In which case, if you are so certain that this is the case, are you also certain that you will cut off your hands and pluck out your eyes? And seeing if you live in a first world country and own a computer are you also certain you can fit through the "eye of a needle?" There are deeper meanings to scripture than what they might appear at first glance, the only things that we really know from scripture is that Hell, whether it be a place for annihilation, torment, in the presence of God or away from it, exists and is unpleasant, is easier to end up there than in heaven and that faith and good works saves us from it. But how many people (if any) are there we do not know. Even the Catholic Church which could presumably canonize a sinner like they do saints, does not venture to say who is in Hell.

What I will also say is if you (I speak generally here) do not want to go to Hell. And if you love your enemy as your friend, and you love your neighbor as yourself, why wouldn't you hope everyone would be saved?
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Well once again Mr. MMurphy seems to not have the ability to speak directly to me concerning comments that I have made.

Actually I do not care but MMurphy, you are welcome to ask me directly instead of indirectly.

As a matter of fact I do pray and hope that every single human being will be saved from the torments of hell. Personally I do not know any believers that does not wish for the same thing! BUT that is not reality and it is not Biblical.

Again, your comments are personal ones which are devoid of Biblical context and truth.

Matthew 7:13-14
"“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Now which part of God's Word is "........."hyperbole", as MMurphy has stated Jesus was speaking in.

hy·per·bo·le
1.
obvious and intentional exaggeration.
2.
an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally.

Since the Bible teaches and Jesus Himself told us that He is the GATE that leads to salvation, how can that be "hyperbole"????

Jesus in His closing statements of the Sermon on the Mount, He presents TWO choices to all who were listening. They are presented in a series of contrasts. Two ways.....Two trees.....Two professions.....and Two foundations. This was a common way of teaching then and still is today BUT it is not "hyperbole".

If it is, then we would have to reject the entire message of the Sermon on the Mount as simply exaggerated speaking from the Lord and that would in essace make Him a Liar. IS THAT A POSIBILITY?????
 
Abdicate said:
[Ecc 12:7 KJV] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Click to expand...

Context?

Abdicate said:
The soul isn't mentioned because:

[1Co 15:44-49 KJV] 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. 48 As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Click to expand...

Context?

Abdicate said:
[Psa 9:5 KJV] 5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Click to expand...

Abad = to perish, die, be exterminated. Clearly not tortured for eternity.

Abdicate said:
[Psa 10:16 KJV] 16 The LORD [is] King for ever and ever: the heathen are perished out of his land.
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Abad = to perish, die, be exterminated. Clearly not tortured for eternity.

Abdicate said:
[Rev 14:11 KJV] 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
[Rev 20:10 KJV] 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Click to expand...

And THEN Revelation 20:21-25 happens.

The end of all evil. Or if we use the Hebrew, Abad.

And so again I ask.

Is God good?
Can God do evil things?
If God does things that evil doers do can he be God?
 
Major said:
That is the "L" of the "Tulip" doctrine of Calvinism and it is not Biblical. God never ever predestined anyone to go to hell.

Eternal location for all men is a matter of choice.
Click to expand...

Technically until after the Greeks came into the world of the Jews, there was NO HELL.

None. That idea was Greek, nowhere in the OT does it come up before Ezekiel.

Hence why we have to look at the whole of the Bible. How did God get rid of evil?

He KILLED it. Destroyed, ended, kaput, finito, end of the line, goners, zeroed out, no bonus lives, no save throws, done.

Or in the Hebrew, abad.
 
Dave Lucas said:
Context?



Context?



Abad = to perish, die, be exterminated. Clearly not tortured for eternity.



Abad = to perish, die, be exterminated. Clearly not tortured for eternity.



And THEN Revelation 20:21-25 happens.

The end of all evil. Or if we use the Hebrew, Abad.

And so again I ask.

Is God good?
Can God do evil things?
If God does things that evil doers do can he be God?
Click to expand...
I can't help you understand what you don't want to learn. As for your questions, they're traps for which I've already navigated. I'm done with you.
 
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