Then Scripture is wrong as it states clearly destruction is the final end to evil. Both in Revelation and by the Kings' own words.
I'll side with The King.
Afterlife
- Thread starter MMurphy
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Then Scripture is wrong as it states clearly destruction is the final end to evil. Both in Revelation and by the Kings' own words.
I'll side with The King.
Destruction doesn't mean annihilation. My King tells me that.
Then Matthew 10:28 is plain wrong. What now?
It isn't wrong. Bodies and souls will be destroyed in the fires of hell, but the spirits of men cannot be destroyed and will suffer eternal separation from God.
O...absolutely agreed. However, it is one of those things that should be explained later instead of sooner to a non-believer.
That all depends on what God leads us to focus on for that individual. Most people respond to the great love and compassion of God first and foremost, while others need a bit of a push from the punishment part of the gospel. The point is that we cannot divorce one from the other, as so many misguided people do.
Then in the nicest way I can say it, your King is not the King of the Scriptures who created this world and everything in it.
The King of Kings says that He will judge the world, and the judgment courts are seated in heaven now. And when this "investigative" judgment has finished, then the wicked will be cast into the "lake of fire" as described in Revelation chapters 19-21.
If you reject the fact that there is a real hell which torments the wicked lost for all of eternity, then you will have to tear out Luke 16 and Revelation 19, 20 and 21 from your Bible. It is just that simple my brother.
I'm going by the whole of Scripture where The King He can destroy body and Soul. And that death and hell be destroyed in the lake of fire.
Finally, to continue to allow sin to exist within the glory of creation was never the point of creation. To return back to that perfection and wipe all tears away there must be an end.
Could we not feel bad for those in torment? How would we not weep if we have love in us?
We would not forget. That is not a loving God to let us continue to live knowing others suffer. We and he would be no better thanthe cruel sent to eternal torment.
Hence the second death. The final end. Do you want them to suffer? Even though they did you wrong? Is that really compassionate?
That lack of empathy is cruel and makes us no better than the enemy.
Dave, you are speaking from a philosophical heart where you are feeling bad for those who have chosen the wrong place to spend eternity. I certainly agree with you. I have seen many loved ones leave this earth and if the Scriptures are true then they are in torments today. Do I feel bad for them????? Absolutely!!!! Who wouldn't?
But this existence is God's creation and He has done it for a specific reason. One of those being that it makes heaven so much more glorious. The 2nd death IS the placing of all wicked lost peoples into the Lake of Fire where those people will be tormented day and night forever. Do I like that??? NO!
But it is what the Bible teaches us and we are told to obey God's Word.
MMurphy
Inactive
Faith, Doubt, Certainty and Fear
As I've been following this thread the past few days, a few posts have been in my opinion very erroneous. In Post 176, Major said, "If doubt is not the opposite of faith, then why did Jesus come to Thomas and have him touch His body? Thomas doubted my friend!!!"
There is a serious problem with telling people that they will be certain when they accept Jesus. And let's say you're right, well then everyone accepts Jesus and becomes certain about it. But that happens regardless of what you say. Now let's consider if you're wrong, well then now people accept Jesus waiting for some divine vision or appearance and when it doesn't happen, they apostatize because they expected something to happen and it didn't. Now, of course I am sure Thomas was awarded that grace of certainty, but he was also an Apostle and I think it would be highly erroneous to suggest that any of us are that important. As Paul says in Galatians 6:3--"For if a man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." So, it is best not to give people false expectations about an especially rare occurrence. I myself have never experienced a divine presence and I don't think most people ever will in this life.
Furthermore, Euphemia said, "The opposite of faith is fear." This is also untrue, because if it were, we would all be either devoid of faith or breaking God's commandant to "Fear the Lord your God." Romans 11:21 makes it clear that no one should think too highly of himself, "For if God did not spare the natural branches (which He broke off so that you could be grafted in), he will not spare you either." Revelations also speaks about names being blotted out of the book of life and Jesus speaks about the deception "even of God's elect". So in that case you are wrong because fear is an integral aspect of faith. In any case it also grammatically incorrect.
As I've been following this thread the past few days, a few posts have been in my opinion very erroneous. In Post 176, Major said, "If doubt is not the opposite of faith, then why did Jesus come to Thomas and have him touch His body? Thomas doubted my friend!!!"
There is a serious problem with telling people that they will be certain when they accept Jesus. And let's say you're right, well then everyone accepts Jesus and becomes certain about it. But that happens regardless of what you say. Now let's consider if you're wrong, well then now people accept Jesus waiting for some divine vision or appearance and when it doesn't happen, they apostatize because they expected something to happen and it didn't. Now, of course I am sure Thomas was awarded that grace of certainty, but he was also an Apostle and I think it would be highly erroneous to suggest that any of us are that important. As Paul says in Galatians 6:3--"For if a man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself." So, it is best not to give people false expectations about an especially rare occurrence. I myself have never experienced a divine presence and I don't think most people ever will in this life.
Furthermore, Euphemia said, "The opposite of faith is fear." This is also untrue, because if it were, we would all be either devoid of faith or breaking God's commandant to "Fear the Lord your God." Romans 11:21 makes it clear that no one should think too highly of himself, "For if God did not spare the natural branches (which He broke off so that you could be grafted in), he will not spare you either." Revelations also speaks about names being blotted out of the book of life and Jesus speaks about the deception "even of God's elect". So in that case you are wrong because fear is an integral aspect of faith. In any case it also grammatically incorrect.
We who know Jesus Christ experience His divine presence!
The opposite of faith is indeed fear. If one allows fear in his life, he is blocking faith's working. Fear is not to be a part of the Christian's life. In Scripture the opposite of fear is faith. One notable illustration is found in the story where Jesus' disciples were afraid in the storm. Jesus doesn’t question their bravery, but their faith. He asks them, in Mark 4:40: "Why are you so afraid? Have you still no faith?" Jesus is commending faith in God rather than fear of the circumstances.
The opposite of faith is indeed fear. If one allows fear in his life, he is blocking faith's working. Fear is not to be a part of the Christian's life. In Scripture the opposite of fear is faith. One notable illustration is found in the story where Jesus' disciples were afraid in the storm. Jesus doesn’t question their bravery, but their faith. He asks them, in Mark 4:40: "Why are you so afraid? Have you still no faith?" Jesus is commending faith in God rather than fear of the circumstances.
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I voted for the torment.
MMurphy
Inactive
Empty Seats on the Ark of Salvation
There have also been a few posts here that have been extremely troubling to me. It brings to mind an image of wayward souls scrambling to reach an Ark as the floods barrel in, and there are some on the boat that are weeping and praying that all the souls that they are loosing will somehow find their way, or that God will intercede for them, and then there are those who are indifferent saying, "Well, scripture told us this would happen, better get over it." Well, the mere fact that it was prophesied does not make it any less traumatic, and some of you seem to think more along the lines of it being glorious to God that people perish rather than a horrific failure by those God called to get everyone on that boat.
In post 176, Major said, "I do agree with you that I hope everyone makes it to heaven, however that is not reality neither is it Biblical. There actually will be more people in hell than in heaven and that is what Jesus said to us. I am going to have to believe Him!"
In this way you preclude the fact that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole which he often did. In which case, if you are so certain that this is the case, are you also certain that you will cut off your hands and pluck out your eyes? And seeing if you live in a first world country and own a computer are you also certain you can fit through the "eye of a needle?" There are deeper meanings to scripture than what they might appear at first glance, the only things that we really know from scripture is that Hell, whether it be a place for annihilation, torment, in the presence of God or away from it, exists and is unpleasant, is easier to end up there than in heaven and that faith and good works saves us from it. But how many people (if any) are there we do not know. Even the Catholic Church which could presumably canonize a sinner like they do saints, does not venture to say who is in Hell.
What I will also say is if you (I speak generally here) do not want to go to Hell. And if you love your enemy as your friend, and you love your neighbor as yourself, why wouldn't you hope everyone would be saved?
There have also been a few posts here that have been extremely troubling to me. It brings to mind an image of wayward souls scrambling to reach an Ark as the floods barrel in, and there are some on the boat that are weeping and praying that all the souls that they are loosing will somehow find their way, or that God will intercede for them, and then there are those who are indifferent saying, "Well, scripture told us this would happen, better get over it." Well, the mere fact that it was prophesied does not make it any less traumatic, and some of you seem to think more along the lines of it being glorious to God that people perish rather than a horrific failure by those God called to get everyone on that boat.
In post 176, Major said, "I do agree with you that I hope everyone makes it to heaven, however that is not reality neither is it Biblical. There actually will be more people in hell than in heaven and that is what Jesus said to us. I am going to have to believe Him!"
In this way you preclude the fact that Jesus was speaking in hyperbole which he often did. In which case, if you are so certain that this is the case, are you also certain that you will cut off your hands and pluck out your eyes? And seeing if you live in a first world country and own a computer are you also certain you can fit through the "eye of a needle?" There are deeper meanings to scripture than what they might appear at first glance, the only things that we really know from scripture is that Hell, whether it be a place for annihilation, torment, in the presence of God or away from it, exists and is unpleasant, is easier to end up there than in heaven and that faith and good works saves us from it. But how many people (if any) are there we do not know. Even the Catholic Church which could presumably canonize a sinner like they do saints, does not venture to say who is in Hell.
What I will also say is if you (I speak generally here) do not want to go to Hell. And if you love your enemy as your friend, and you love your neighbor as yourself, why wouldn't you hope everyone would be saved?
MMurphy
Inactive
Fair enough, I agree with this, although I would still venture to say it is important to have a fear of God, never being to certain of your own salvation else it is easy to become arrogant which God hates.
It is a good thing to gain an understanding of what the usage for the English, "fear" means as in fearing God. He's my Dad, my perfect Father. I don't fear Him as in being afraid of Him! I fear Him with a reverential AWE!
I have no idea what Calvinism is, but I do know what Universalism claims and it is nothing but heresy, born out of a heart of fear.
MMurphy
Inactive
I'll try to do it justice; it essentially rejects the notion of free will and declares that God, being the sovereign being that He is, has "elected" some to be saved and others has predestined to damnation. And there is nothing we can do to unravel that destiny.
Thanks for the nutshell definition! I don't believe that God's word teaches those things.
Calvinism in 5 points:
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)