Afterlife

[Huntingteckel]

Even the wicked dead will be raised to stand before God---their spirits are indestructible and will have been waiting thousands of years (some of them). (Revelation 20:5b) God will raise them all one Day to receive their immortal spiritual bodies to stand before God---they will need that indestructibility because just standing in the mighty glory of God would shrivel and destroy any flesh being.

They are raised and then judged. Then they get their punishment.

Did you have a response to my response about the verses you mentioned?

 

[Euphemia]

Good post, first of all.

Psalm 22:26 is talking about saved people, is it not? The people that praise Yahweh?

Psalm 23:6 is again talking about the saved, not the wicked.

Psalm 49:9 says "that he should live on forever and never see the pit," so again, wouldn't that be the saved and not the wicked?

I don't know about Ecclesiastes 12:7. It doesn't seem to fit what we're talking about, but maybe I'm missing something.

Daniel 12:2-3. Contempt isn't felt by the person, so this verse says nothing about the unsaved being immortal.

Matthew 25:46 says "eternal life" or "eternal punishment." It doesn't say anything about eternal punishing, so again, the unsaved are not said to be alive. Execution is permanent and eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:12-19 is about the resurrection for final judgement.

Of course the saved will LIVE forever---enjoying heavenly kingdom life!---while the dead will live forever dying, languishing, separated from God forever in the blackest darkness.

Why would the righteous com to the point of "seeing the pit"? Of course the righteous are the recipient of precious promises. But the wicked also have promises. Daniel 12:2-3 mentions contempt---God's contempt, which is a most horrifying prospect for anyone. The wicked will suffer under God's contempt forever.

As eternal life means living forever--on and on and on---so does eternal punishment correspond to that. It goes on and on and on---no end. Execution is not the end of judgment. The spirit of man is immortal and will not be destroyed by mere fire and brimstone. It survives all those elements. The fires of hell are not consuming of spiritual bodies.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Of course the saved will LIVE forever---enjoying heavenly kingdom life!---while the dead will live forever dying, languishing, separated from God forever in the blackest darkness.

Why would the righteous com to the point of "seeing the pit"? Of course the righteous are the recipient of precious promises. But the wicked also have promises. Daniel 12:2-3 mentions contempt---God's contempt, which is a most horrifying prospect for anyone. The wicked will suffer under God's contempt forever.

As eternal life means living forever--on and on and on---so does eternal punishment correspond to that. It goes on and on and on---no end. Execution is not the end of judgment. The spirit of man is immortal and will not be destroyed by mere fire and brimstone. It survives all those elements. The fires of hell are not consuming of spiritual bodies.

I can't remember a verse that says the unsaved are going to be dying eternally. I really don't understand how "death" actually means living forever in agony. Seems like the opposite thing to me.

 

[Glomung]

What do you mean? I'd like for Universalism to be true, but I don't think it is based on the Bible. How is that a contradiction?

Liking for something to be true is cute, but worthless.

Jesus made it VERY PLAIN that not all would be saved (or redeemed, or reconciled or whatever other word is popular this week). He states it over and over again.

Why do you waste your time with wishing?

 

[Glomung]

Physical death and spiritual death are two completely different things, and have little in common other than the word "death".

 

[Huntingteckel]

Liking for something to be true is cute, but worthless.

Jesus made it VERY PLAIN that not all would be saved (or redeemed, or reconciled or whatever other word is popular this week). He states it over and over again.

Why do you waste your time with wishing?

I don't wish. I'm just saying that if I believed what I liked I would believe in Universalism. Annihilationism is worse to me than eternal torment but I believe it because that's what I believe the bible teaches.

 

[HisManySongs]

Liking for something to be true is cute, but worthless.

Jesus made it VERY PLAIN that not all would be saved (or redeemed, or reconciled or whatever other word is popular this week). He states it over and over again.

Why do you waste your time with wishing?

Is God wasting His time.

2 Peter 3:9 (ESV)
9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

 

[Glomung]

Is God wasting His time.

I would doubt that God ever wastes His time.
What exactly is your question?

 

[HisManySongs]

I would doubt that God ever wastes His time.
What exactly is your question?

I was showing that God is wishing for the same thing as Huntingteckel. You asked if he was wasting his time. So I asked if you thought God was wasting His time wishing.

 

[Major]

Hello everyone, this is my first post, so I hope it is engaging.

Of late, I have been on a pretty extensive investigation about the afterlife in Christianity. As of now, the theory that I've most come to appreciate comes from the Eastern Orthodox Church. As it is, their essential teaching is perhaps the exact opposite of what many Western traditions teach, that is that Hell is not eternal separation from God, but rather eternal company with God which in an unrepentant state would be Hellish. I feel this aligns well with the description of God as an "all-consuming fire" and also mitigates the problems associated with our current idea of Hell.

Having said this, I would also consider myself a very hopeful universalist.

I am wondering what everyone else here has come to believe about the afterlife and, in particular, hell--universalism, eternal torment, annihilationism, etc.

Mr. Mmurphy, may I cut quickly to the case with you and tell you straight out that there is no such thing as a hopeful Universalist!!!

You my friend are exactly what I am........A SINNER.

Rom. 3:23 says........
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".



Now you have TWO choices.

1. Keep believing the stuff you posted about what the Eastern Orthodox Church says or what Western church says and you will remain a sinner, unforgiving, undegenerated and YOU will then know that there is a hell that is real prepared for Satan and all those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You will know that the fire burns forever and the worm never dies. There is no escape and no holidays.

2. You can accept what The Bible, The Word of God says and come to Christ, accept Him as your Lord and Saviour and be a born again believer of Jesus Christ. Then YOU will know for sure that heaven is real and that God has prepared a mansion for you there.

The choice is yours!

 

[Glomung]

God does not wish (not as we use the word).
He does not sit around pondering "it would be really nifty if such and such were true".
He does desire that all would be saved, sadly we (mankind) are not so cooperative.

 

[Major]

So, there is in all of us a sense of justice, and we don't want to see anyone who does wicked things like murder, be left unpunished. But then there are the people who do live content lives and are kind and loving and follow their conscience, but simply don't know the Gospel, either because they have never heard it, or because it was not taught to them correctly and so there just in limbo.

One of the key characteristics of a mortal sin in Catholic and Orthodox tradition is Full Knowledge and Deliberate Consent. So, yeah if someone did a really heinous thing that they knew was wrong, and they knew there would be eternal consequence in Hell for, I could accept that, but that's not what you believe. You believe even if they don't know, they are still damned.

It does not matter one little tittle what anyone thinks my brother. Not one little bit.

It is what God has said, not what she or me or you think.

Revelation 20:13-15
13 "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Ezekiel 18:20 ESV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Remember, you asked and may I say to you that souls will burn forever in hell with no escape; this is the second death. The only escape from this fate is accepting Jesus as our Savior. He is the only one that has the keys of hell so we can be released from our prison of hell and condemnation.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Mr. Mmurphy, may I cut quickly to the case with you and tell you straight out that there is no such thing as a hopeful Universalist!!!

You my friend are exactly what I am........A SINNER.

Rom. 3:23 says........
"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

That Murphy is YOU!

Now you have TWO choices.

1. Keep believing the stuff you posted about what the Eastern Orthodox Church says or what Western church says and you will remain a sinner, unforgiving, undegenerated and YOU will then know that there is a hell that is real prepared for Satan and all those who reject the Lord Jesus Christ. You will know that the fire burns forever and the worm never dies. There is no escape and no holidays.

2. You can accept what The Bible, The Word of God says and come to Christ, accept Him as your Lord and Saviour and be a born again believer of Jesus Christ. Then YOU will know for sure that heaven is real and that God has prepared a mansion for you there.

The choice is yours!

There is no such thing as a hopeful universalist? That's not true...

1. I haven't seen anything "off" in this thread, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

2. You mean agree what you believe the Bible says, right?

It's not nice to question others salvation over a disagreement.

 

[HisManySongs]

It's not nice to question others salvation over a disagreement.

Not only that, it's a violation of our rules.

 

[Abdicate]

What do you mean? I'd like for Universalism to be true, but I don't think it is based on the Bible. How is that a contradiction?

Forgive me... I didn't see your first word "IF"... my bad

 

[Huntingteckel]

Forgive me... I didn't see your first word "IF"... my bad

That's alright. I was really confused for a second there.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

Question: "Is the human soul mortal or immortal?"

I would just like to include this verse: "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

 

[Euphemia]

Question: "Is the human soul mortal or immortal?"

I would just like to include this verse: "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

"Destroy" doesn't mean annihilate, with respect to our spirits.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

"Destroy" doesn't mean annihilate, with respect to our spirits.

What does destroy mean?

 

[MMurphy]

Scrutinize, but don't declare yourself as a devil's advocate, which is dishonourable. if you don't believe the word of God, be honest and say so.

Arguing what you think no one else is doing is a self-deception. these things are countered very day by Christians.

As for the weak in faith---you have no idea how the weak and insecure in faith can be influenced by someone presenting the lies of the devil. If you know the truth, you err in presenting lies as a debating tactic. There is a terrible risk in that, and there is judgment for those who lead people astray.



I am not going to address the old standbys of Universalists and Annihilationists who twist the word. None of us are infallible, but many of us know the truth of the word because Holy Spirit lives up to His job in leading us into all truth. We believe HIM, and not the tired old arguments of heresy.



Then you have allowed yourself to be influenced just as you wish to influence others who are not strong in their faith.



Liberating? Being liberated from truth is only more bondage!



I don't misunderstand anything about universalism. I don't think you should be peddling this false doctrine here.



I understand the doctrine of hell, and I am not offended by it.



Hell is not retribution for offenses. It is simply where all who are positionally unrighteous before holy God will go. People are not judged for their sin as much as they are merely judged for who they are: unrighteous. We can only be deemed righteous by allowing the blood of Jesus to redeem us. It's the simple gospel message.

My goodness, I quoted scriptures that contradicted your interpretations and suddenly all Hell breaks loose (pun intended).

Look, I believe in prima scriptura which means scripture first, or primacy of scripture. Which is sorta the middle ground between the Catholic view of Tradition=Scripture and the fundamentalist view of sola scriptura--which means by scripture alone. This is in part do to a universal holding by every major protestant, Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox church that one MUST HAVE a faithful community to be part of. There is no such thing as a lone Christian, which means, as far as I'm concerned, one must have more than just the Bible to be a Christian.

From your posts you seem to be a sola scriptura kind of person, so I gave you scriptures that contradict what you have advocated and you essentially just ignored them. So you chose to deny that anyone filled with the Holy Spirit could interpret it that way. Well that kind of philosophy won't help people who have faith crises, you have to meet them at their level and then draw them into a better understanding. Simply denying the anyone can interpret something someway defeats the purpose of discussion.

Hopeful Universalism is a powerful graduation of a faith based on fear to one based in Love, which is the Greatest commandment. Since Jesus called us to love our enemies as our friends, I would argue that a Christian must hope, at least that every person comes to know Christ. Whether you hope for it in this life or the next seems to me, a minor difference. Everyone is responsible for his own salvation, though.