Afterlife

[CCW95A]

Almost all scripture speaks of Annihilation.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Key word is perish.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Key word is death.

It goes on and on and is self evident but the heretics cry foul because of some worm thing.

It goes on and on and is self evident but the heretics cry foul because of some worm thing.

That worm thing you mention is man, who will never die. Not earthworms that one uses to go fishing!!

Mar_9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Isa_66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Psa 22:6 But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
Psa 22:7 All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
Psa 22:8 "He trusts in the LORD; let him deliver him; let him rescue him, for he delights in him!"

This was speaking of Jesus....

Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 41:14 Fear not, you worm Jacob, you men of Israel! I am the one who helps you, declares the LORD; your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel.

 

[MMurphy]

That interpretations is valid, though it could also be considered a metaphor from the Gehenna which was used as a garbage dumb that was constantly infested with maggots. That is, there are always maggots and always fire burning.

 

[CCW95A]

That interpretations is valid, though it could also be considered a metaphor from the Gehenna which was used as a garbage dumb that was constantly infested with maggots. That is, there are always maggots and always fire burning.

It could be used as a "metaphor" But it is referring to a man as a worm, and he, that worm will never die.

 

[ASUK]

You eternal tormentors are wrong. We've been through this before so stop spreading your worm story because it's nonsense.

There is no way that it is as clear as perish and death.

 

[Euphemia]

So, what troubles me is how do you figure the Ecumenical Councils' teachings about Christ's full and unconfused and inseparable humanity and divinity were true, in that case? Because there were Christians back in the day that did not believe in the Trinity, or had some heretical belief about how Jesus was human and divine, and indeed some Christians have this even today. But, all were reading the same scripture.

We have no need of an "Ecumenical Council".

I also think that your logic here would lead to a belief that the Westburo Baptist Church speaks with the Holy Spirit, because they to believe the same things you do.

What proof do you have for such an assertion? I think that is just a foolish statement.

I believe, though, that whether or not wisdom is truth, that it comes from the Holy Spirit, is what fruits it bears.

Wisdom comes from the truth. It is a gift of God. It is not truth. Knowing God through His Son, Jesus Christ, and following Him in obedience to His word will cause us to bear observable spiritual fruit.

 

[Huntingteckel]

I believe full heartedly in Annihilationism. I believe it fits the best with the Bible. That being said, I hope that God left the part out of the Bible where everyone is saved. I know that some may scream that this is unfair, but I don't want anyone to go to hell, regardless of whether they are destroyed there or stay there forever.

 

[KingJ]

I am wondering what everyone else here has come to believe about the afterlife and, in particular, hell--universalism, eternal torment, annihilationism, etc.

I like this discussion. I think we have had 10 in the last month .

Universalism = wishful thinking = God over riding free will = evil God. The devil does not want to ever submit his will to God. Have you seen any sign of repentance from him in scripture? or does he continue to do evil over and over.

Eternal torment as in God torturing....God has never been guilty of torture in any scripture. 'God torturing' is an assumption / scare tactic. Hell / separation from God will be eternal but the torment will be our memories and the fact that we are a wolf, living with wolves. No lambs.

Annihilation = serve God or literally die = no free will = evil God.

Conclusion: IQ>10 is needed to deduce that if our choices are ...serve God or literally die or.... serve God or suffer / be tortured for eternity = no free will = evil God.

God does place the devil into a lake of sulfur. But it does not say He keeps him in it. God judges all according to their works Rom 2:6. Annihilation or everyone in lake of sulfur is not exactly judging according to works...is it? God lets the evil live for an eternity. That should tell us that God is honoring their free will. Banishment is eternal and the only certain. 'Suffering' is very debatable as scripture is crystal clear that God is good and His love and mercy endures forever. God does not hate anyone! devil included. God only hates sin.

 

[KingJ]

Revelation 20:10 (KJV)
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is important to note the separation between 'cast into lake of fire' AND 'tormented forever and ever. It does not say 'and therein will be tormented forever and ever'.

 

[KingJ]

I believe full heartedly in Annihilationism. I believe it fits the best with the Bible. That being said, I hope that God left the part out of the Bible where everyone is saved. I know that some may scream that this is unfair, but I don't want anyone to go to hell, regardless of whether they are destroyed there or stay there forever.

If I had to scale beliefs it would go like this

10/10 evil God = torture us for eternity = no true free will .

8/10 evil God = annihilate us = no true free will .

5/10 evil God = universal salvation = over ride free will / force people to submit their will. The light is bright with God. The evil hate the light and love the darkness John 3:20!!

0/10 = eternal banishment + make a home for them + suffer a period for sins according to works Rom 2:6 .

 

[Euphemia]

God does place the devil into a lake of sulfur. But it does not say He keeps him in it.

Just a little correction!

Revelation 20:10 (NLT)
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

God does not hate anyone! devil included. God only hates sin.

All references from the NLT:

Psalm 5:5
Therefore, the proud may not stand in your presence,
for you hate all who do evil.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord examines both the righteous and the wicked.
He hates those who love violence.

Leviticus 20:23
Do not live according to the customs of the people I am driving out before you. It is because they do these shameful things that I detest them.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things the Lord hates—
no, seven things he detests:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that kill the innocent,
18 a heart that plots evil,
feet that race to do wrong,
19 a false witness who pours out lies,
a person who sows discord in a family.

Hosea 9:15
The Lord says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal;
there I began to hate them.
I will drive them from my land
because of their evil actions.
I will love them no more
because all their leaders are rebels.


Make no mistake---God doesn't punish sin, which He hates, also, but He punishes sinners.

 

[MMurphy]

If I had to scale beliefs it would go like this

10/10 evil God = torture us for eternity = no true free will .

8/10 evil God = annihilate us = no true free will .

5/10 evil God = universal salvation = over ride free will / force people to submit their will. The light is bright with God. The evil hate the light and love the darkness John 3:20!!

0/10 = eternal banishment + make a home for them + suffer a period for sins according to works Rom 2:6 .

How do you feel about the Orthodox view of Heaven and Hell being different states in the same location?

Also, I want to point out this fallacy with the whole "free will" thing. Yes it is true we have free will, but most attempt to extrapolate this into thinking that we "choose" Hell, which I don't believe has any Biblical support and is for that matter a very Catholic dogma. If anyone says it is a choice, I think there is some serious issues with how you view God, because there is information withheld from us in this life, so its not exactly a choice when you don't even know what your choosing or the consequences of your choice. This is why I think the cosmic torture chamber theory is flawed, because I absolutely refuse to believe that God damns those who simply did not have the opportunity to confess a belief in Christ.

 

[Euphemia]

God tells us how He deals with those who have never heard the name of Jesus. The rest of us have been given a choice---choose life and live, or the opposite is death.

Everyone is given opportunity to know God.

 

[MMurphy]

I believe full heartedly in Annihilationism. I believe it fits the best with the Bible. That being said, I hope that God left the part out of the Bible where everyone is saved. I know that some may scream that this is unfair, but I don't want anyone to go to hell, regardless of whether they are destroyed there or stay there forever.

Agreed (though I don't believe in annihilationism). Anyone, however, who thinks it is unfair is totally wrong, because the whole point of Christ is that none of us deserve Heaven but it is gifted to us. Which is why I think sincerely hoping for the reconciliation of all to God is profitable to your faith.

The obvious, and correct, problem with universalism is of course that it makes it seem as though your choices do not matter, which I believe they do and it is good to have a healthy fear of hell (or in your case annihilation) but not an unhealthy fear (that is not believing it exists or basing your entire faith on its existence).

 

[MMurphy]

Everyone is given opportunity to know God.

That is your own hypothesis, it is not, to my knowledge, supported by scripture, and certainly not by experience. Do Hindu infants have the opportunity? or what about North Koreans? For that matter those living in Africa during the First Century?

 

[MMurphy]

We have no need of an "Ecumenical Council".

Know your Church history, the first Seven Ecumenical Councils established the key tenants of the Christian Faith, including the denouncement of anyone who taught that Jesus was not fully divine, or not fully human. It also established the doctrine of the Trinity, the cannon of scripture and the Christian Creeds.

Without the Councils, Christian Gnosticism would still have a strong following today.

What proof do you have for such an assertion? I think that is just a foolish statement.

The WBC also believes in literal readings of scripture, that most of humanity is damned, and that charity is not possible outside of their own Christian community. So in a way, their beliefs are just the natural conclusion of yours, in my opinion. But to be fair, I would like to know where do you think their doctrines are wrong?

 

[Euphemia]

That is your own hypothesis, it is not, to my knowledge, supported by scripture, and certainly not by experience. Do Hindu infants have the opportunity? or what about North Koreans? For that matter those living in Africa during the First Century?

It is scriptural, and not any hypothesis.

Romans 1:19-20 (NLT)
They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.

 

[Euphemia]

Know your Church history, the first Seven Ecumenical Councils established the key tenants of the Christian Faith, including the denouncement of anyone who taught that Jesus was not fully divine, or not fully human. It also established the doctrine of the Trinity, the cannon of scripture and the Christian Creeds.

Without the Councils, Christian Gnosticism would still have a strong following today.

My Church history is in the bible.

The WBC also believes in literal readings of scripture, that most of humanity is damned, and that charity is not possible outside of their own Christian community. So in a way, their beliefs are just the natural conclusion of yours, in my opinion. But to be fair, I would like to know where do you think their doctrines are wrong?

Funny. I don't read up on Westboro, except what I hear on the news. So far, they are not demonstrative of people who have been saved by grace. I have no idea why you compare them to anything I have ever said here, and I find that ignorance-based and not a tiny bit insulting.

I also think that your logic here would lead to a belief that the Westburo Baptist Church speaks with the Holy Spirit, because they to believe the same things you do.

You've only been a member since only Wednesday and you presume to know what I believe? That's phenomenal!

 

[Euphemia]

MMurphy~

The Bible a perfect source of wisdom and truth, but it is not the only source of truth, which I believe is evident in the inclusion of Solomon's proverbs.

As an offshoot of your statement above, do you also adhere to a belief that there are various pathways to God?

 

[Huntingteckel]

If I had to scale beliefs it would go like this

10/10 evil God = torture us for eternity = no true free will .

8/10 evil God = annihilate us = no true free will .

5/10 evil God = universal salvation = over ride free will / force people to submit their will. The light is bright with God. The evil hate the light and love the darkness John 3:20!!

0/10 = eternal banishment + make a home for them + suffer a period for sins according to works Rom 2:6 .

I would love for the last one to be a reality, but I just don't see it in the Bible. I also don't understand why you're adding "no true free will" at the end of the choices.

Agreed (though I don't believe in annihilationism). Anyone, however, who thinks it is unfair is totally wrong, because the whole point of Christ is that none of us deserve Heaven but it is gifted to us. Which is why I think sincerely hoping for the reconciliation of all to God is profitable to your faith.

The obvious, and correct, problem with universalism is of course that it makes it seem as though your choices do not matter, which I believe they do and it is good to have a healthy fear of hell (or in your case annihilation) but not an unhealthy fear (that is not believing it exists or basing your entire faith on its existence).

I would have said that our gift is eternal life rather than heaven, but I guess they go hand in hand.

 

[MMurphy]

As an offshoot of your statement above, do you also adhere to a belief that there are various pathways to God?

Not in the sense that one can achieve union with God outside of Christ--which is the essence of Christianity. But where grace is conferred by the Holy Spirit is what we can only speculate. As I take Romans 2:12-16 to be implicating that those who do not know, or do not receive the law (and I do think that this means even those who have it misrepresented to them) or the mystery of the New Covenant, may still be justified by the Holy Spirit. I do not believe, however, as the universalists do, that all religions lead to salvation, but only by virtue of our common creator, all have elements of truth in them because they are written in our hearts. Murder and adultery, for instance, are universally condemned by all cultures and religions. And when you look at a prophet like Solomon, he was not a paragon of Judeo-Christian virtue, yet we revere him as the wisest man who ever lived (save Jesus), which is where I find the principle that you can attain wisdom from non-christian sources, but they do not have the grace of inerrency.

Truth is, though, the afterlife is a mystery and all we can do is have a healthy (and not unhealthy) fear of Hell and a healthy (and not unhealthy) hope for Heaven, but chiefly faith should be about servitude to God through charity and good works.