Afterlife

[MMurphy]

My Church history is in the bible.



Funny. I don't read up on Westboro, except what I hear on the news. So far, they are not demonstrative of people who have been saved by grace. I have no idea why you compare them to anything I have ever said here, and I find that ignorance-based and not a tiny bit insulting.



You've only been a member since only Wednesday and you presume to know what I believe? That's phenomenal!

Sorry if I offended, my meaning was that I don't see you having an appreciation of metaphor or acquired wisdom from the Bible, which is the only way I see how WBC can say the things that they say. I really don't believe a new believer can read through Leviticus and think "Oh wow, I totally get this", just as I suppose you could say I could not determine your beliefs in less than a week. So I do apologize for my presumption. Even so, many biblical scholars consider Leviticus to be the most important book of the Bible.

I just think there is a danger in thinking that the Bible is a simple read that requires no background or meditation. And many people can (and do) read into whatever they want, which is why I hold a deep respect for those who have gone to seminary or bible college and learned the scripture in a more full context.

WBC, as I see it, is the natural conclusion of the literal reading, though I'm still waiting for them to finally severe their arms and pluck out their eyes.

 

[KingJ]

Just a little correction!

Revelation 20:10 (NLT)
Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

'There' is not 'therein'. You are assuming it is because you have been taught since birth that hell is eternal suffering...by God. In every translation an ''and'' or a 'fullstop'' separate the sentences. It reads fine with either. There = hell. Therein = lake of sulfur.

King J and Euphemia are going to visit the London torture chambers. There we will have coffee in the cold weather. OR King J and Euphemia are going to visit the London torture chambers and will have coffee in the cold weather.

I have more respect for the KJV (surprise ) and it says 'and'.

All references from the NLT:

Psalm 5:5
Therefore, the proud may not stand in your presence,
for you hate all who do evil.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord examines both the righteous and the wicked.
He hates those who love violence.

Leviticus 20:23
Do not live according to the customs of the people I am driving out before you. It is because they do these shameful things that I detest them.

Proverbs 6:16-19
There are six things the Lord hates—
no, seven things he detests:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that kill the innocent,
18 a heart that plots evil,
feet that race to do wrong,
19 a false witness who pours out lies,
a person who sows discord in a family.

Hosea 9:15
The Lord says, “All their wickedness began at Gilgal;
there I began to hate them.
I will drive them from my land
because of their evil actions.
I will love them no more
because all their leaders are rebels.


Make no mistake---God doesn't punish sin, which He hates, also, but He punishes sinners.

NO, no, no. You are making another reading mistake /bad assumption / bad hermeneutics. A baby is never an object of hate to God. No creation can ever be an object of hate. God hates sin = God does not create evil! Hence whenever scripture says god hates x, it is never literally a case of person + sin = God hates 'them'!! Just written that way. Anyone can repent and know God's love. If God did not love sinners He would not have died for them.

You are hence quoting another half truth. You need to add Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

 

[KingJ]

I would love for the last one to be a reality, but I just don't see it in the Bible. I also don't understand why you're adding "no true free will" at the end of the choices.

I am truly baffled how you see ''serve me or die'' as free will.

 

[Huntingteckel]

I am truly baffled how you see ''serve me or die'' as free will.

But you can disobey. You can live your life the way you want but their are consequences for it.

 

[KingJ]

How do you feel about the Orthodox view of Heaven and Hell being different states in the same location?

Also, I want to point out this fallacy with the whole "free will" thing. Yes it is true we have free will, but most attempt to extrapolate this into thinking that we "choose" Hell, which I don't believe has any Biblical support and is for that matter a very Catholic dogma. If anyone says it is a choice, I think there is some serious issues with how you view God, because there is information withheld from us in this life, so its not exactly a choice when you don't even know what your choosing or the consequences of your choice. This is why I think the cosmic torture chamber theory is flawed, because I absolutely refuse to believe that God damns those who simply did not have the opportunity to confess a belief in Christ.

Be slow to mock the Catholics. Their reasoning is very logical imho. Mortal sin = Hades, venial sin = Purgatory en route to paradise, saint = paradise. Mortal sin...shows you hate God at an extremity...like adultery results in divorce, not not washing dishes or swearing. Where the intent of the heart is surely no longer capable of truthful repentance. Hence scripture like Heb 10:29.

The flaw they make though is a flaw most make with ''hell''.... assumptions (though Catholics can be more forgiven here since they have the 'Maccabees' speaking of Purgatory). We need to take scriptures definitions of God and apply them to every unknown. NOT fill in the unknown with assumptions.

For example. God is creator, omniscient, omnipotent and good. Now, get some logical defining facts about God.

He is ''''clever'''', we are dumb.
He does not make mistakes.

Just those two solve every question you have. ''will some go to hell for eternity if never heard the gospel'' ...well you never had to hear the gospel of Jesus to 'hear God'. God has reached out to man from day 1. Consider how God approached Cain. ''Where is Abel?...like God does not know where Abel was....God gave Cain a chance to say'''I killed him Lord, forgive me!''. Likewise Adam and Eve....like God does not know where they were hiding after sin....He gave them a chance to come to the light and repent. Bending the knee is the only requirement to come to God and ALL adults with IQ>10 (maybe 50) are capable of that.

All who did that OT went to Abrahams' bosom. Salvation with which we have nothing to do...is when Jesus fetched them from Abraham's bosom / makes us in the NT 'new creations'. The requirements to come to God have not changed from day 1 Psalm 51:17 is true today like it was 6000 years ago

So, does God send anyone to hell unfairly...no, God is not dumb. He does not make mistakes. Does someone need to hear about Jesus to be saved, no ...they just need to draw near to God James 4:8 and He will draw near to them (the reveal Jesus). We can all do that...we can all decide today to ...repent. If it is sincere God pays us a visit. James 4:8 causes Jer 17:10 which leads to 1 Cor 12:3 because of Rev 3:20. When God draws near to us NT, we know Jesus as Lord. Hence scripture can say 'by no other name can we be saved'. Note that you just got the cart before the horse.

 

[Euphemia]

'There' is not 'therein'. You are assuming it is because you have been taught since birth that hell is eternal suffering...by God. In every translation an ''and'' or a 'fullstop'' separate the sentences. It reads fine with either. There = hell. Therein = lake of sulfur.

THERE is the same as THEREIN.

 

[KingJ]

THERE is the same as THEREIN.

You are missing the fullstop, 'there' does not have an 'in' and that more respected versions say 'and'. I would think Calvinists would want to believe in a lessor hell considering the belief in God's partiality.

 

[KingJ]

But you can disobey. You can live your life the way you want but their are consequences for it.

Sure I agree with that. But what leader today...kills all its prisoners?

God's love and mercy continues on forever and ever....on who? Psalm 100:5

Not sure why I am arguing this though. Scripture is clear on 'eternal' torment. The only debate is on suffering.

 

[Huntingteckel]

Sure I agree with that. But what leader today...kills all its prisoners?

God's love and mercy continues on forever and ever....on who? Psalm 100:5

Not sure why I am arguing this though. Scripture is clear on 'eternal' torment. The only debate is on suffering.

Who cares what the leaders of today do? God set consequences for our actions. Sin= Death.

Mercy... I don't see it as merciful to torment forever without hope of an end.

And I feel it clearly teaches annihilation. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want this thread to be locked along with all the other ones.

 

[Euphemia]

You are missing the fullstop, 'there' does not have an 'in' and that more respected versions say 'and'. I would think Calvinists would want to believe in a lessor hell considering the belief in God's partiality.

"Therein" is the same as "there".

 

[KingJ]

Who cares what the leaders of today do? God set consequences for our actions. Sin= Death.

And I feel it clearly teaches annihilation. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree as I don't want this thread to be locked along with all the other ones.

They lock it because many get ugly. There is no reason too as we all just talking about the largely unknown .

I want you to tell me, what would you do if in God's shoes?

Mercy... I don't see it as merciful to torment forever without hope of an end.

That verse of God's love and mercy endures forever hit me hard when I grasped how God treated, is treating the devil. Jesus never said He hates the devil when He was tempted. God allowed the devil to 'think' he had power to tempt Him...how humble and gracious is God???!!! Allowing an ant to be arrogant in heaven and on earth..to Him. God never harassed or tortured the fallen angels....he honored them as much as He could and cast them into pigs. Did God need to be at the mercy of the devil???? or us???? I think not. As you said...wages of sin = death, not lowering yourself beneath fallen angels and evil humans...

Just think about it. God just needed to come, say He is God and then die. Look at what you are not reading. The scripture paints a picture of how good God is to all of His creation that we are completely missing!!

God loves all of His creation. The devil was well loved. Just like all the Jews. Just like Adam and Eve. Just like YOU and me. His grace and mercy is not limited to who does His will. It falls on everyone on endures forever on everyone. The ONLY reason the fallen angels and sinful humans are not going to be with God is because of their free will choice....choosing not to be with Him. Opposing their free will is evil. God sees the devil as currently in 'death'. But he is clearly not 'dead' nor suffering.

 

[KingJ]

"Therein" is the same as "there".

Google the definitions of the words and you will find they are different. I am right. Just say it....

 

[Huntingteckel]

They lock it because many get ugly. There is no reason too as we all just talking about the largely unknown .

I want you to tell me, what would you do if in God's shoes?

That verse of God's love and mercy endures forever hit me hard when I grasped how God treated, is treating the devil. Jesus never said He hates the devil when He was tempted. God allowed the devil to 'think' he had power to tempt Him...how humble and gracious is God???!!! Allowing an ant to be arrogant in heaven and on earth. God never harassed or tortured the fallen angels....he honored them as much as He could and cast them into pigs. Did God need to be at the mercy of the devil???? or us???? I think not. As you said...wages of sin = death, not lowering yourself beneath fallen angels and evil humans...

Just think about it. God just needed to come, say He is God and then die. Look at what you are not reading. The scripture paints a picture of how good God is to all of His creation that we are completely missing!!

God loves all of His creation. The devil was well loved. Just like all the Jews. Just like Adam and Eve. Just like YOU and me. His grace and mercy is not limited to who does His will. It falls on everyone on endures forever on everyone. The ONLY reason the fallen angels and sinful humans are not going to be with God is because of their free will choice....choosing not to be with Him. Opposing their free will is evil. God sees the devil as currently in 'death'. But he is clearly not 'dead' nor suffering.

Good post. We just come to different conclusions. I guess it's because we probably have different opinions on what is good and just. It's not a big deal though because neither of us are going to experience what happens to the wicked... Or at least I hope neither of us experience it. Only God knows the heart.

 

[Euphemia]

Google the definitions of the words and you will find they are different. I am right. Just say it....

Sorry, but Revelation 20:10 talks about the beast and the false prophet , who, at the time that hell is opened to receive Satan himself, will have been there for at least 1000 years already. They are not coming out. They will remain there and suffer torment forever, as will all who find themselves cast there.

 

[KingJ]

Good post. We just come to different conclusions. I guess it's because we probably have different opinions on what is good and just. It's not a big deal though because neither of us are going to experience what happens to the wicked... Or at least I hope neither of us experience it. Only God knows the heart.

What is your take on Paul saying we will judge angels?

 

[Huntingteckel]

What is your take on Paul saying we will judge angels?

I have no idea. I had to look it up because I couldn't remember where that was and in what context. I'll need to think about it before I decide what I feel about it. What's your take on it?

 

[KingJ]

Sorry, but Revelation 20:10 talks about the beast and the false prophet , who, at the time that hell is opened to receive Satan himself, will have been there for at least 1000 years already. They are not coming out. They will remain there and suffer torment forever, as will all who find themselves cast there.

You know the context and portion of scripture so well...how is it that you miss Rev 20:13? ''Each judged according to their works''.
How does that scripture agree with your interpretation of Rev 20:10?

 

[KingJ]

I have no idea. I had to look it up because I couldn't remember where that was and in what context. I'll need to think about it before I decide what I feel about it. What's your take on it?

Well, Paul would not lie. If that is what was revealed to Him, then God wanted us to know it. We just ignore dealing with it.
It is a fact, we will judge angels. That means that we, as Christians, have the ability to judge well. Hence supporting type scripture saying 'what we bind on earth is bound in heaven'.

I cannot see a single reason for us judging angels in heaven. Crystal clear / non-debatable fact is that no sin is in God's presence. Meaning the only angels in need of judgment are the fallen ones....

Some suggest we will judge angels like ...on their obedience....like pets....completely oblivious to the reality that they are created above us. They will give us one hard smack to the face if we give them any attitude in heaven! . Imagine it...umm excuse me Michael...I asked you to wash my car and you didn't....or God asked you to go stand watch at that door and you didn't....smack...then he goes and talks to God direct .

 

[Huntingteckel]

Well, Paul would not lie. If that is what was revealed to Him, then God wanted us to know it. We just ignore dealing with it.
It is a fact, we will judge angels. That means that we, as Christians, have the ability to judge well. Hence supporting type scripture saying 'what we bind on earth is bound in heaven'.

I cannot see a single reason for us judging angels in heaven. Crystal clear / non-debatable fact is that no sin is in God's presence. Meaning the only angels in need of judgment are the fallen ones....

Some suggest we will judge angels like ...on their obedience....like pets....completely oblivious to the reality that they are created above us. They will give us one hard smack to the face if we give them any attitude in heaven! . Imagine it...umm excuse me Michael...I asked you to wash my car and you didn't....or God asked you to go stand watch at that door and you didn't....smack...then he goes and talks to God direct .

I had never really thought about it before. It's interesting how certain things never really pop out at you until someone mentions them. I guess I'll have to look into it.

 

[MMurphy]

Be slow to mock the Catholics. Their reasoning is very logical imho. Mortal sin = Hades, venial sin = Purgatory en route to paradise, saint = paradise. Mortal sin...shows you hate God at an extremity...like adultery results in divorce, not not washing dishes or swearing. Where the intent of the heart is surely no longer capable of truthful repentance. Hence scripture like Heb 10:29.

Your probably the only one here to have accused me of mocking Catholics. In any case, free-will may work once you are in the Catholic Church, but outside of it, they assume people make the choice to not be Catholics, but in truth anyone born outside of the Christian faith are just not making a choice, they assumed into whatever religion they are in and in only a few rare circumstances do converts actually transverse religions.

Fact of the matter is that life and God are both very mysterious and we lack a lot of information. Most people like to deny this and say it is plain as day, but I believe that is insulting to God who intended life to be mysterious and to deny it means that we disparage God's will, which I believe is the definition of sin.

The flaw they make though is a flaw most make with ''hell''.... assumptions (though Catholics can be more forgiven here since they have the 'Maccabees' speaking of Purgatory). We need to take scriptures definitions of God and apply them to every unknown. NOT fill in the unknown with assumptions.

For example. God is creator, omniscient, omnipotent and good. Now, get some logical defining facts about God.

He is ''''clever'''', we are dumb.
He does not make mistakes.

Just those two solve every question you have. ''will some go to hell for eternity if never heard the gospel'' ...well you never had to hear the gospel of Jesus to 'hear God'. God has reached out to man from day 1. Consider how God approached Cain. ''Where is Abel?...like God does not know where Abel was....God gave Cain a chance to say'''I killed him Lord, forgive me!''. Likewise Adam and Eve....like God does not know where they were hiding after sin....He gave them a chance to come to the light and repent. Bending the knee is the only requirement to come to God and ALL adults with IQ>10 (maybe 50) are capable of that.

All who did that OT went to Abrahams' bosom. Salvation with which we have nothing to do...is when Jesus fetched them from Abraham's bosom / makes us in the NT 'new creations'. The requirements to come to God have not changed from day 1 Psalm 51:17 is true today like it was 6000 years ago

So, does God send anyone to hell unfairly...no, God is not dumb. He does not make mistakes. Does someone need to hear about Jesus to be saved, no ...they just need to draw near to God James 4:8 and He will draw near to them (the reveal Jesus). We can all do that...we can all decide today to ...repent. If it is sincere God pays us a visit. James 4:8 causes Jer 17:10 which leads to 1 Cor 12:3 because of Rev 3:20. When God draws near to us NT, we know Jesus as Lord. Hence scripture can say 'by no other name can we be saved'. Note that you just got the cart before the horse.

Perhaps this is a good summary of what you said, I thought of this today: We know there is only one way to Heaven and that is through Christ Jesus, but we know not how many ways their are to Christ.