Afterlife

[Euphemia]

You know the context and portion of scripture so well...how is it that you miss Rev 20:13? ''Each judged according to their works''.
How does that scripture agree with your interpretation of Rev 20:10?

I have no idea what you are getting at with this question. The dead who are raised are the unrighteous dead of all time, including those who died during the Tribulation and the Millennial reign. There will also be a group of people raised and still alive at the time of this final event who will have accepted the Messiah. Those who have accepted the Messiah during the Tribulation and the Millennium will find their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life and will receive heaven's reward. Punishment for the rest will vary according to one's deeds of the flesh.

The devil, his angels and the beast and the false prophet are exceptions to that event, because their judgment will have already been pronounced.

 

[KingJ]

The devil, his angels and the beast and the false prophet are exceptions to that event, because their judgment will have already been pronounced.

So according to you they get 'another' part of hell. Eternity in a lake of sulfur. Whilst we are not with them in it?

 

[KingJ]

Fact of the matter is that life and God are both very mysterious and we lack a lot of information. Most people like to deny this and say it is plain as day, but I believe that is insulting to God who intended life to be mysterious and to deny it means that we disparage God's will, which I believe is the definition of sin.

The bible is quite detailed. There are just exclusions on what is not really important or on what our current brain capacity can't handle imho.

Perhaps this is a good summary of what you said, I thought of this today: We know there is only one way to Heaven and that is through Christ Jesus, but we know not how many ways their are to Christ.

That sounds too similar to 'all roads lead to Rome'. I would rather say... if anyone hates evil Rom 12:9, humbles themselves before God James 4:6 and repents Acts 3:19...they are drawing near to God and 1 Cor 12:3 / belief required in John 3:16 (Jesus is Lord) is a stone throw away.

 

[KingJ]

Your probably the only one here to have accused me of mocking Catholics.

Sorry man. I should have replaced 'mock' with 'disagree' .

 

[Euphemia]

So according to you they get 'another' part of hell. Eternity in a lake of sulfur. Whilst we are not with them in it?

What is "another part of hell"? Why would anyone who is of Christ be with them in it?

 

[KingJ]

What is "another part of hell"? Why would anyone who is of Christ be with them in it?

You said ''Punishment for the rest will vary according to one's deeds of the flesh''. Which I agree with. This suggests not all are in the 'lake of sulfur' with the devil. Now..... why would that apply to us (humans) and not angels?

My point all along has been that there is differing punishments. You jumped on me quoting the devil in Rev 20:10 missing my point and hence implying contrary to what you said above.

So to clarify....you believe the devil and the fallen angels will suffer eternally in the lake of sulfur and the rest of us elsewhere with different torment? If so, how do you explain 1 Cor 6:3 'Don't you know we will judge angels'.

 

[Euphemia]

You said ''Punishment for the rest will vary according to one's deeds of the flesh''. Which I agree with. This suggests not all are in the 'lake of sulfur' with the devil. Now..... why would that apply to us (humans) and not angels?

My point all along has been that there is differing punishments. You jumped on me quoting the devil in Rev 20:10 missing my point and hence implying contrary to what you said above.

So to clarify....you believe the devil and the fallen angels will suffer eternally in the lake of sulfur and the rest of us elsewhere with different torment? If so, how do you explain 1 Cor 6:3 'Don't you know we will judge angels'.

All the unrighteous will end up in the same place, some with more torment than others, according to their deeds. I cannot understand where you have come up with me saying anything other than that.

Judging angels can mean two things: 1. That we will figure in at Judgment Day, and 2. We will command angels, as co-rulers with Christ.

 

[KingJ]

All the unrighteous will end up in the same place, some with more torment than others, according to their deeds. I cannot understand where you have come up with me saying anything other than that.

Judging angels can mean two things: 1. That we will figure in at Judgment Day, and 2. We will command angels, as co-rulers with Christ.

Euphemia....you have not been reading my posts have you? We have been disagreeing because I see lake of sulfur as extreme punishment when you see it as a place with differing punishments. We are saying similar things with only a disagreement on English wording in Rev 20:10. You miss my London example.....???

 

[Abdicate]

Hell (or Hades as one put it) is cast into the Lake of Fire.

 

[KingJ]

Hell (or Hades as one put it) is cast into the Lake of Fire.

Yes, I know that...and Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death....humans will have their 'part' / time in the lake of fire.

Add differing punishments to the above and not an imaginary ''''different heats'''' of fire and you get....a period of suffering in the lake ...not an eternity.

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia....you have not been reading my posts have you? We have been disagreeing because I see lake of sulfur as extreme punishment when you see it as a place with differing punishments. We are saying similar things with only a disagreement on English wording in Rev 20:10. You miss my London example.....???

I don't believe we are arguing at all. The lake of fire, where brimstone burns forever is the place where all the unrighteous go---bar none. It is definitely extreme, and all sinners will receive damnation, but even Jesus says there is worse punishment for certain sinners.

Matthew 11:20-22 (NLT)
Then Jesus began to denounce the towns where he had done so many of his miracles, because they hadn’t repented of their sins and turned to God. 21 “What sorrow awaits you, Korazin and Bethsaida! For if the miracles I did in you had been done in wicked Tyre and Sidon, their people would have repented of their sins long ago, clothing themselves in burlap and throwing ashes on their heads to show their remorse. 22 I tell you, Tyre and Sidon will be better off on judgment day than you.

and in Luke 12:47-48 (NLT)
And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

...and in Hebrews 10:29 (NLT) it is said:
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

It is all for eternity.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

To put it simply, Hell is a quarantine of evil, and evil is the absence of God.

 

[MMurphy]

The bible is quite detailed. There are just exclusions on what is not really important or on what our current brain capacity can't handle imho.


That sounds too similar to 'all roads lead to Rome'. I would rather say... if anyone hates evil Rom 12:9, humbles themselves before God James 4:6 and repents Acts 3:19...they are drawing near to God and 1 Cor 12:3 / belief required in John 3:16 (Jesus is Lord) is a stone throw away.

Yes, the Bible is detailed, that was what I was saying, but not just detailed linearly but also vertically, that is scriptures have deeper meanings that what is on the face. This is why you can pick up new things every time you read scripture, because as your wisdom grows you come acquire a new layer of wisdom. A good example of this is when reading those scriptures which are prima facie teachings about Hell, Annihilation, and Universalism. As your wisdom grows (the Orthodox call it Theosis) you come to understand these verses in deeper ways.

Also what I was saying was nothing like "all roads lead to Rome". It is like saying, how many protestant denominations lead to Christ? We don't know, all we know is Christ leads to heaven.

 

[MMurphy]

I don't believe we are arguing at all. The lake of fire, where brimstone burns forever is the place where all the unrighteous go---bar none. It is definitely extreme, and all sinners will receive damnation, but even Jesus says there is worse punishment for certain sinners.

Matthew 11:20-22 (NLT)
Then Jesus began to denounce the towns where he had done so many of his miracles, because they hadn’t repented of their sins and turned to God. 21 “What sorrow awaits you, Korazin and Bethsaida! For if the miracles I did in you had been done in wicked Tyre and Sidon, their people would have repented of their sins long ago, clothing themselves in burlap and throwing ashes on their heads to show their remorse. 22 I tell you, Tyre and Sidon will be better off on judgment day than you.

and in Luke 12:47-48 (NLT)
And a servant who knows what the master wants, but isn’t prepared and doesn’t carry out those instructions, will be severely punished. 48 But someone who does not know, and then does something wrong, will be punished only lightly. When someone has been given much, much will be required in return; and when someone has been entrusted with much, even more will be required.

...and in Hebrews 10:29 (NLT) it is said:
Just think how much worse the punishment will be for those who have trampled on the Son of God, and have treated the blood of the covenant, which made us holy, as if it were common and unholy, and have insulted and disdained the Holy Spirit who brings God’s mercy to us.

It is all for eternity.

Euphemia I am curious about something. How do you reconcile the scriptures that teach annihilation or universalism with eternal torment? Also, why don't you think its acceptable for someone to reconcile beliefs in annihilation/universalism with scriptures on eternal torment (caveat: saying because that's not what the Bible teaches isn't allowed)

 

[Euphemia]

Euphemia I am curious about something. How do you reconcile the scriptures that teach annihilation or universalism with eternal torment? Also, why don't you think its acceptable for someone to reconcile beliefs in annihilation/universalism with scriptures on eternal torment (caveat: saying because that's not what the Bible teaches isn't allowed)

No scripture teaches of annihilation and especially none even remotely teach universalism. That is the reason...and it is so allowed!

 

[MMurphy]

No scripture teaches of annihilation and especially none even remotely teach universalism. That is the reason and it is so allowed!

I knew you were going to do that. Okay, let's do three for each:

Annihilation
John 3:15
That whosoever believes in him should not perish but have Eternal Life.
(As it is written, eternal life is the "gift" or "reward" for believing, and it follows that such is not imparted on those who don't believe--aka conditional immortality aka annihilationism--so one has eternal death or non-eternal life when they don't believe)

Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life.
(Again, the reward is immortality, so the punishment is mortality, utter destruction, annihilation)

Mathew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy (annihilate) both soul and body in Hell (Hades, or Gehenna, not sure what the original Greek word was).

Universalism
John 6:37
All who the Father has given to Me shall come to ME and him who comes to Me I will in no wise cast out
(If Father-God gives everyone over to Son-God, and everyone with Son-God comes to Him, and He does not cast anyone out, then ALL will be reconciled to God)

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the Earth, will draw all men unto Me.
(This one works well with universalism and Hell being in the presence of God, but how can men be drawn to Him, and also separated eternally? Perhaps for the final judgment, but in that case, why not just say "...will judge all men" why say draw, which indicates a universal reconciliation?)

1 Timothy 2:4-6
(God) will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the Truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus. Who gave himself a ransom for all to be testified in due time.
(Fairly straightforward this one is, God wills something, He is omnipotent, so it will happen)

***

I do not necessarily endorse these opinions, but I have been forced to play devil's advocate.

Also, how do you solve the loving God paradox? That is why would a Loving God allow anyone to be damned to Hell if there was a capacity to have them saved? And I don't mean really wicked people, let's say a moral atheist who just isn't convinced of the evidence, but who would follow Christ if the evidence were made clear?

Also I want an apology for your post, because if you look at just these scriptures, they teach either annihilation or universal salvation, which is what on-the-face-of-it means. (Though I think Hell would freeze over before that happens, and in that case none of this matters)

 

[Euphemia]

Playing devil's advocate for something you don't believe is a dangerous game. No one should be able to force you to play such a foolish game, here. You could actually convince a spiritually weaker brother or sister to choose to embrace heresy, and thus would find yourself to be guilty of deceit. Hey---you could actually delude yourself, if you are not fully committed to the truth!

Are you not fully committed to the truth?

None of any of those scriptures teach either annihilation or universalism, the most pernicious heretical doctrine that has come down the pike. Anyone who sees either teaching there are in need of Holy Spirit to convince them of the truth.

 

[KingJ]

I don't believe we are arguing at all. The lake of fire, where brimstone burns forever is the place where all the unrighteous go---bar none. It is definitely extreme, and all sinners will receive damnation, but even Jesus says there is worse punishment for certain sinners.

I said the underlined right above your post. Scripture does not say eternity in the lake. It says the lake burns for eternity.

It is all for eternity.

Torment is for eternity.

Consider Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" Contempt = a feeling that someone or something is not worthy of any respect or approval = eternal shame and not eternal suffering.

Then, I also find Isaiah 66:23-24 interesting, ''And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh".

If we are all going to look upon those in hell, surely the majority of us will not approve of seeing them being 'tortured / suffering immensely'. We can accept them living in shame. But in suffering....for eternity. If we can deduce that is evil, how much more God? God is not cruel.

Sadam Hussein tortured and killed prisoners of war / enemies / those who hate him. Would God do likewise / worse? Would you?

 

[MMurphy]

Playing devil's advocate for something you don't believe is a dangerous game. No one should be able to force you to play such a foolish game, here. You could actually convince a spiritually weaker brother or sister to choose to embrace heresy, and thus would find yourself to be guilty of deceit. Hey---you could actually delude yourself, if you are not fully committed to the truth!

Are you not fully committed to the truth?

None of any of those scriptures teach either annihilation or universalism, the most pernicious heretical doctrine that has come down the pike. Anyone who sees either teaching there are in need of Holy Spirit to convince them of the truth.

Truth stands up to scrutiny, so if these teachings are untrue, they will be revealed for what they are. In any case you didn't address any of them, so anyone who picks up a Bible and reads these scriptures (or just Googles "scriptures that teach [insert teaching here]") would then be falling into "deception" as you say. As the devil's advocate, I merely stand to argue what no one else is arguing to see what wisdom and/or truth we can learn from it. Also, I don't know why anyone who is "weak in faith" would be more inclined to listen to me than you.

You also didn't address any of the scriptures to view them through the "proper" lens, or say why it is erroneous to interpret them in the manner I suggested they could be interpreted. I also don't think its right for you to disparage people who do in fact interpret these scriptures differently. Perhaps they don't say "Everyone will be brought into Heaven" but nor do they say or indicate "Some will be damned for eternity". None of us are infallible so our readings of scripture will sometimes (if not often) be faulty.

***

Now, for clarity, since you seem to be indicating I'm a heretic, I use to be very skeptical of universalism, as you are, until I learned more about their belief. This is not "Unitarian Universalism" but rather those who are Trinitarian, believe in Biblical inerrancy and all major Christian dogmas, but who also believe that God will ultimately have everyone saved. I've always held that faith should be based on Love of God rather than fear of Hell--but a lot of times Hell is a powerful motivator. Learning that some universalism has a case is actually somewhat liberating. What I think you misunderstand about Univeralism is that it is an excuse to do whatever sinful deed comes to your mind because it doesn't matter in the end. And indeed that is the danger in teaching it dogmatically, but no Christian Universalist believes that. It can, however, be a way to focus more on love and grace rather than fear and coercion. Whatever its status (I would call it heterodoxical, you would say heretical) I don't endorse it beyond a mere wishful hope, because it does have severe implications for the faith.

However, that being said, I think also that your concept of Hell as a cosmic torture chamber also has negative implications, and a sizable portion of apostasies Christians abandon their faith because the doctrines on Hell offend their conscience. Well, God will not offend the conscience because he is perfectly just, infinitely merciful, and ultimately loving. So, either Hell is not being taught correctly, or people are misunderstanding it (or both). As soon as one looks beyond the traditionally Catholic teachings of divine retribution and punitive judgment, and instead looks at the Church as a hospital, sin as a disease, and Christ as the medicine, the problems of Hell wither away. These fire and brimstone references are warnings about what happens when the disease progresses to the terminal stage--i.e. it is torment, hellish, weeping, gnashing of teeth. What you and I disagree with is "where" Hell is. I believe it makes the most theological sense for heaven and hell to be two states in one location, but whatever the case is, the effect is the same--it is a place (or state) to avoid. However, it is useful to move away from the de jure concept of divine punishment into the ipso facto concept of being-infected-with-sin-is-hell.

I think of it like if you had Eboli, if you don't take your medicine you will be punished, tormented, cast into a pool of blood. But not because of the medicine, because of the disease. Likewise, hell is not retribution for offenses to God (though it is sometimes how it is explained), but rather the cost of being in His presence (or away from it) with mortal sin on your heart.

While you may disagree with this assessment, it is more closely aligned with what is the "Orthodox" doctrine, inasmuch as I am able to relay it. Also I read my last post to you, and I realized you may have taken offense to it (since your reply was rather cold) so I wanted to assure you I intended it as a playful poke due to our commonplace disagreements.

 

[Euphemia]

I said the underlined right above your post. Scripture does not say eternity in the lake. It says the lake burns for eternity.

The Lake of Fire burns forever, and every sinner will be found therein.

Revelation 21:8 (NLT)
“But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

Torment is for eternity.

Consider Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" Contempt = a feeling that someone or something is not worthy of any respect or approval = eternal shame and not eternal suffering.

KingJ, I find that you are having trouble with words. Eternal contempt or disgrace is part of the suffering of the wicked. Maybe you should use this scripture to counter the annihilationist.

Then, I also find Isaiah 66:23-24 interesting, ''And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh".

If we are all going to look upon those in hell, surely the majority of us will not approve of seeing them being 'tortured / suffering immensely'. We can accept them living in shame. But in suffering....for eternity. If we can deduce that is evil, how much more God? God is not cruel.

Isaiah 66:23-24 is talking about the carnage after the Great Tribulation. The dead will be in the millions! God makes the parallel between the incineration of men's dead bodies and the terror of hellfire. Physically, these wicked dead will burn as we must dispose of the dead, but on Judgment Day, they will be cast into an eternal fire, never to be consumed, as they will be raised to their immortality to stand before God and to be sentenced.