Yes the same man who said women should keep quiet in the assembly. Don't take this wrong but maybe you should show a little more respect for scripture and take the time to look it up instead of your little blah blahs....just saying.
The fact??lol I think you mean more like your opinion. Here are some facts..... 1 Timothy 2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."NIV "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."KJV "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet."NASV And my personal study bible the ESV says "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet." Just believe and obey scripture my friend and you will be fine.
Acts 2.17-18 In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophecy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days and they will prophecy.
Of course no one is saying women should not be in subjection with men but as women are saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and they are here described as prophesying, they are equally gifted by God.
Of course no one is saying women should not be in subjection with men but as women are saved, filled with the Holy Spirit and they are here described as prophesying, they are equally gifted by God.
I was wondering all of this myself... I didn't read all the comments because a lot of it looked more like arguments rather than scriptural based discussion. what about the women in the bible who were prophetess'? why are there so many important women in the bible who were so much more than just a figure that took care of the home and children? how are women supposed to train up their daughters/younger women if they really aren't supposed to "preach" or even learn... it doesn't say for men to teach the young women. how was Deborah a judge if women were to be quiet? what about the unmarried women? when it said "for God is not the author of confusion...." is he referring to all that was said previously when talking about speaking in tongues, or was he saying that about "women must keep silence in church..."? do all versions of the bible say the same thing about all this?
we do not know who God has called to preach/teach/prophesy...we can't say God did not call that person!! so if we shout false prophet just because it may be a woman, are we being ignorant or is it justified? is the only thing that changed after Christ's crucifixion is our way of salvation?
im not trying to be rude, just would like some questions answered. so many laws changed throughout the Bible.
we do not know who God has called to preach/teach/prophesy...we can't say God did not call that person!! so if we shout false prophet just because it may be a woman, are we being ignorant or is it justified? is the only thing that changed after Christ's crucifixion is our way of salvation?
im not trying to be rude, just would like some questions answered. so many laws changed throughout the Bible.
There are thoughts and arguments on each side of this. It is an issue that deeply divides believers for sure. However, as a woman I have taught my children as best as I could but they are grown up now, I work full time to support my husband and provide for my family and I read the Bible every day and seek The Lord. The Bible does have some scriptures as quoted by others about women keeping silent in church and not being in authority over men. It also commends women active in serving the purposes of God and so the matter cannot be driven forward just on isolated verses alone.
However, I feel God is urging me to share my faith with others and do the work of an evangelist. I would never do this without the agreement and support of my husband or my Pastor. Maybe women should pray that more men get a calling from God to share the gospel - to our Sunday school children, one to one and street preaching but until that happens, if God can speak through a donkey, cause stones to praise Him, any child of God will have to preach the gospel.
However, I feel God is urging me to share my faith with others and do the work of an evangelist. I would never do this without the agreement and support of my husband or my Pastor. Maybe women should pray that more men get a calling from God to share the gospel - to our Sunday school children, one to one and street preaching but until that happens, if God can speak through a donkey, cause stones to praise Him, any child of God will have to preach the gospel.
Currently I am not a member of any church. But I admit that I attended various worship services of different church denominations.
Like all of you on this forum I try to measure everything by means of the bible.
What confuses me is that the Catholic Church practices many traditions which are unbiblical (rosary, Mary as mediator,...), but nevertheless it seems to be one of the few churches that acts almost biblical regarding women in church. 'Almost', because some readings are done by women.
Various other denominations I saw have female pastors, like the Pentecostal or the Lutheran church. In other churches or congregations women are at least allowed to give comments during the service.
The bible however has a clear statement regarding that issue.
1 Cor. 15:33-35 reads - "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
Hence when a female pastor speaks in a worship service I cannot help but regard this as unbiblical, albeit the content of her sermon might be excellent. How can a church claim to use the bible as only authority when ignoring this rule?
I have some more thoughts that would support the biblical view, in spite of being a woman myself.
But I would very much appreciate your opinions, if you like?
I've noticed that if you go to churches outside of the western culture, you will see them being more concerned with biblical church attributes.
Is it possible that Paul was a proponent in giving credence to prevailing authority as a strategy to spread the gospel, establish the church, and secure the Christian faith in many regions?
I would predict that if Paul were alive today in these United States he would not endorse lawful slavery or the lawful subservient treatment of women.
Why?
Its illegal in the United States to do so, as Paul honored the general premise of the law.
Must every word that proceeded from Paul become "a new law" where we as the body become the laws newly acquired subordinates once again? Was not the old law a temporary custodian at best? Or should we instead be subordinate to the Spirit that moved Paul's pen within a specific culture, in a specific government, and with specific customs during perilous times?
Thus women and slaves by Roman law were treated slightly better than dogs unto extreme despotism. I would advocate that in these United States that the Bill of Rights has elevated every persons individual status in "Natural Rights" as "equal." I would also advocate that Natural Rights is born form Genesis and precedes all civil governments. I would then presuppose that Paul would reverence our Government in the same way he did with the brutal totalitarian Roman government, but with a new found gladness that despotism is reduced.
Is not "church membership also a voluntary contract in these United States?" For if a woman joins a church were women are to be silent, are to sit in the back, cover their heads, and then only ask their husband questions about the message after, then I would reflect "one should honor the voluntary contract in that church." However if one then feels that this is a mistreatment unto their own convictions, then its better to join another church who supports a woman’s involvement than to stir up strife in the church who stands rigid to silence regarding women.Yet I advise no one to action and simply reflect my own convictions.
For no force is administered by any church to silence women in these United States lest they become despotic brutes then thrashing ethics and just-law into the ditch. Yet voluntary contracts are in great variance for today’s opportunity. I am indeed an advocate of "honoring the church we contract with." I am also a proponent of Natural Rights Theory from scripture that would give "human beings" the delegation of natural equality the same, which includes all women.
I would predict that if Paul were alive today in these United States he would not endorse lawful slavery or the lawful subservient treatment of women.
Why?
Its illegal in the United States to do so, as Paul honored the general premise of the law.
Must every word that proceeded from Paul become "a new law" where we as the body become the laws newly acquired subordinates once again? Was not the old law a temporary custodian at best? Or should we instead be subordinate to the Spirit that moved Paul's pen within a specific culture, in a specific government, and with specific customs during perilous times?
Thus women and slaves by Roman law were treated slightly better than dogs unto extreme despotism. I would advocate that in these United States that the Bill of Rights has elevated every persons individual status in "Natural Rights" as "equal." I would also advocate that Natural Rights is born form Genesis and precedes all civil governments. I would then presuppose that Paul would reverence our Government in the same way he did with the brutal totalitarian Roman government, but with a new found gladness that despotism is reduced.
Is not "church membership also a voluntary contract in these United States?" For if a woman joins a church were women are to be silent, are to sit in the back, cover their heads, and then only ask their husband questions about the message after, then I would reflect "one should honor the voluntary contract in that church." However if one then feels that this is a mistreatment unto their own convictions, then its better to join another church who supports a woman’s involvement than to stir up strife in the church who stands rigid to silence regarding women.Yet I advise no one to action and simply reflect my own convictions.
For no force is administered by any church to silence women in these United States lest they become despotic brutes then thrashing ethics and just-law into the ditch. Yet voluntary contracts are in great variance for today’s opportunity. I am indeed an advocate of "honoring the church we contract with." I am also a proponent of Natural Rights Theory from scripture that would give "human beings" the delegation of natural equality the same, which includes all women.
I know this is an old thread, but it doesn't seem like it was ever appropriately answered so i'll chime in. READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER! Yep...that is about all that needs to be said...this whole culture argument isn't the answer, idk where that came about, the answer is literally the next verse showing that Paul was being sarcastic...duh! I guess I am just blessed to have basic reading comprehension? Really though, shouldn't it go off in your heads anyways that something doesn't seem right and maybe your interpretation is off? If something contradicts your intuitions your radar should go off that something isn't right and you need to look deeper, but honestly I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of the people who held this view just heard it at a church they go to holding this belief and they never bothered questioning what the church told them. Where are the Be like the Bereans people! Examine scripture and it's context!
Currently I am not a member of any church. But I admit that I attended various worship services of different church denominations.
Like all of you on this forum I try to measure everything by means of the bible.
What confuses me is that the Catholic Church practices many traditions which are unbiblical (rosary, Mary as mediator,...), but nevertheless it seems to be one of the few churches that acts almost biblical regarding women in church. 'Almost', because some readings are done by women.
Various other denominations I saw have female pastors, like the Pentecostal or the Lutheran church. In other churches or congregations women are at least allowed to give comments during the service.
The bible however has a clear statement regarding that issue.
1 Cor. 15:33-35 reads - "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church."
Hence when a female pastor speaks in a worship service I cannot help but regard this as unbiblical, albeit the content of her sermon might be excellent. How can a church claim to use the bible as only authority when ignoring this rule?
I have some more thoughts that would support the biblical view, in spite of being a woman myself.
But I would very much appreciate your opinions, if you like?
Putting aside some of the misconceptions you mentioned,
While women may not be ordained priests, many women in Catholic Churches act as catechists and even lectures during the Mass. They just may not be consecrated priests. Not because the Church doesn't want to try it, but because it has absolutely not authority to do it. Though some rebellious Catholics--both laity and clergy--are trying to do it.
We will never have a final summation as one group.
Paul, being Jewish, must have had a Jewish mother, who likely never went anywhere without an opinion. "Oye, I sent my son into the world, and he came back a Christian."
Ok, no worries. [emoji6] [emoji106]
One thing to keep in mind... There are Having a rule for the general case does not mean there are not exceptions to the rule...
For example... A moabite shall never enter the Assembly of the Lord - to the 10th generation.... and yet Boaz married a Moabitess - Ruth... Ruth is included within David's genealogy... so she was obviously an exception to the general rule...
Consider....
Women in leadership positions was always a JUDGEMENT against Men being Unwilling to step up to the plate (Ref the Prophetess Deborah who lead Israel to war).... Is that a problem within our society today? Yes. Look at your average church... 99% of the volunteer work is performed by women... Men just don't step up to the plate - and so God sends Women to do the Men's work....
Also - there is neither Jew nor Greek, Free man nor Bond, Male nor Female in Christ.... You will find women sent by God.... Don't reject them out of hand because they are Women....
So....
Know the tree by it's fruit.... If the fruit is "GOOD" fruit - then the tree is good as well...
women are vey inportant in church affares
This is always a touchy subject. 
What do you reckon the connection is ( if any ) with Paul's words about headship in 1 Cor 11 esp. concerning why the Woman/Wife should have a sign of authority on her head because of the Angels ?
1Co 11:10 KJV For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
What do you reckon the connection is ( if any ) with Paul's words about headship in 1 Cor 11 esp. concerning why the Woman/Wife should have a sign of authority on her head because of the Angels ? 1Co 11:10 KJV For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
This is always a touchy subject.
1Co 11:10 KJV For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
I have no clue, except that I might reckon Paul must have been trying to reckon.
Also, I ment to say that I have heard you signature before. The one that says: Well I heard there was a secret chord that David played and it pleased the Lord, ...
It is a lyric in a song that our school choir sings.
Paul was reckoning about the Created order of things imo and this goes right back to the Garden where Eve acted independantly in a vital matter and Adam failed in his duty as the Head.
1Co 11:3 NIV But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
1Co 11:8-10 NIV For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; (9) neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. (10) It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.
The Angels witnessed the malfunction of the Headship arrangement in the Garden, and we know many followed satan instead of their Head, so it's important we send them the right message now imo. They're watching us.
The song is Jeff Buckley's version of Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah. Great song.
That is a very clever idea, but I don't understand how it affects my speaking in church. I think that I have never been in a Christian Church in which women don't speak. So women speaking must be an okay thing.