The Jeff Buckley version is one of my favorite versions.
The Jeff Buckley version is one of my favorite versions.
Yeah I think the issue was disruption in Paul's day but I looked at the passage concerning headship in regard to Church leadership really. Following the Created order adds some kind of extra protection imo.
Now that's beautiful !
Loved it! Thanks for spreading the link
Were women allowed to listen, and then repeat the information on Alice Longworth's or Mary Magdalene's couch?
More generally, may women be intelligence officers or spies? Did Paul have an opinion about that?
Maybe it should be cleared up...what do you mean when you say "speak?"
I performed the Rufus Wainwright version on piano at my college when I was 18.
I think the silence refers to disruptive speech but sure the woman could listen and then go chat to Alice or Mary and the man could listen then go chat to Philemon or Cornelius maybe.
Hmm I don't know if Paul talked about that what do you think; do you think a woman cannot do anything unless Paul said so ?
Do I need Saint Paul's permission? One of my dad's maxims is: Ask forgiveness, not permission. Maybe my question is too far off topic. I should ask it in another thread.
Interesting question, even more so because on Sunday afternoon, I was driving my grandfather's (the one we call Gramps) antique, fifty-year-old Plymouth. Another driver ran a red light, and twirled us around like a top. Nobody was injured, but we spent the afternoon and evening waiting for the police and at urgent care.
I think Dad would say that he wants to encourage creativity, not stupidity. My relationship with my mother keeps me on this side of stupid. I tell her everything. Even things like I almost stripped butt naked to take a shower with my boyfriend.
Sometimes I cross the line. Everyone in my family feeds homeless people. If anyone asks for money, we feed them as long as we can watch them eat. Turns out that is the rule for adults, but not for children.
Dad gave me a credit card for emergencies. I have only used it once to feed a homeless man. I forgot to tell Dad that I had spent his money. When he receieved the bill, he summoned me to his office.
When Dad is angry with me, I turn into a bowl of jelly. "But ... Daddy ... I only did what you do."
"What do I do?"
"I fed a homeless man."
"What, you feed a homeless person. Do you know how dangerouse that can be?"
So I had committed two sins, but he realized that he had taught me by example. So, the rule now is no feeding homeless people unless I am with an adult.
Another of Dad's maxims is: You can't make a mistake if you act in the best interest of the customer.
Homeless people are not exactly customers, but Dad decided that I had been trying to do the right thing, even though I had done two wrong things.
About driving my dad's car: He would say that circumstances dictate the application of the maxim. I know that I should not drive his car just because I want to. I'm not going to drive it just to test the maxim.
I'm a member of a school club, the Best Buddy Club. The club matches so called normal students with Autistic or Downs students. My best buddy has trouble understanding the unwritten rules. He might have trouble knowing that he cannot drive his father's car just because he wants to. I'm not exactly sure how I know that not driving the car is an unwritten rule.
I think in many situations when you're young it's better to trust the judgement of elders rather than learning from breaking boundaries but that's me.
Yes, definitely. I'm sitting here trying to remember when I have deliberately crossed a boundary. (At first it was if, now it is when.)
I have already mentioned the incident with my boyfriend. I had known him for a couple of weeks. We had spent the day together. We had run ten miles. He had tried to teach me to play tennis. He has a tennis court in his back yard. Doesn't everybody? We shot hoops. We hugged a sweaty, saltly hug. I was having the highest of highs.
He said, "If we take a shower, you can try to beat me at swimming."
I thought, "we" like in together in the shower. I became really emotional. My legs were so weak. I couldn't stand up. "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I can't have sex with you." Which is true in one sense, but I really wanted to.
He said something like he was sorry. He didn't mean he wanted to have sex. Well, maybe that is true.
I trundled of to the shower. When I came back in my bikini, I saw him ogling my boobs. What boobs? Anyway, I snapped at him because I remembered how he had ogled a booby woman the week before. I apologized for being a witch. He trundled to the shower.
Normally, I confess to Mom on Sunday mornings, but that Saturday night I found her asleep. Dad was away on a trip, so she was by herself. I didn't wait for Sunday morning. I confessed the events of the day like water spilling from a bucket. Now that I think about it, I should never been alone with him at his house. That is where I crossed the line.
Mr Aqua, you are the best girlfriend. Do you know that in Chinese, water is the sign for life.
Sounds like a Neighbours/Home and Away episode to me you should write scripts.
In the first century, the vast majority of women were not educated. If they were not educated, even by their parents, how could they teach others? (the women who taught others were obviously somehow educated). God appoints those who are equipped to teach to be in that role. Apparently they weren't even allowed to ask questions of the leaders and teachers in church because they were told to stay silent and ask their husbands at another time.
What does "women are to be silent in church" mean anyway? The moment we step in the building we are to keep our mouths shut? The moment we step into the sanctuary we are to be silent? We are not to say anything from the platform/pulpit/stage? So women are not to sing, to speak to other women while at church? If ANY of these scenarios I just posed are true, all christian churches and women are in the wrong. I don't think we REALLY have the answer to that statement.
WOO HOO!!!! Women have come a long way!!!! We can ask questions of other people (outside of our husband....IF we even have one...and what if we don't - we aren't allowed to ask questions at all - yikes), we can go to school, we can go to college, we can go to seminary or bible college, we can lead bible studies, we can write Christian books (for women AND men), the list goes on.
What does "women are to be silent in church" mean anyway? The moment we step in the building we are to keep our mouths shut? The moment we step into the sanctuary we are to be silent? We are not to say anything from the platform/pulpit/stage? So women are not to sing, to speak to other women while at church? If ANY of these scenarios I just posed are true, all christian churches and women are in the wrong. I don't think we REALLY have the answer to that statement.
WOO HOO!!!! Women have come a long way!!!! We can ask questions of other people (outside of our husband....IF we even have one...and what if we don't - we aren't allowed to ask questions at all - yikes), we can go to school, we can go to college, we can go to seminary or bible college, we can lead bible studies, we can write Christian books (for women AND men), the list goes on.
The way someone explained it to me was women sat away from their husbands and they were asking questions in the middle of someone speaking. I did a little write up on something similiar if anyone is interested in reading it. It is more about women pastors but is kinda along the same lines. One thing to remember is we can't pick and choose what part of the bible we want to follow.
It doesn't say anywhere in scripture that these women were basically interrupting during a sermon or church service, as it was explained to you - that is pure conjecture. No one, even men, should be asking questions in the middle of someone speaking...and doing so is not a female gender trait.
We DO know, however, that women were not formally educated, unless she was taught in her house by a family member outside of any structured educational system.
We DO know there were women who were influential - Deborah, Miriam, Phoebe, Priscilla and Junia and several of these women held leadership roles.
And, yes, I know we are not to choose what we want to follow.
We do know these people, men and women, were pagan before they were Christian. Could it be that there were pagans in the church or maybe people were still trying to incorporate their old pagan practices in the church? This is just speculation but the bible is pretty clear on what it says. God inspired the bible and for some reason wanted this included.
And speaking of leadership roles. I'll post my little write up since Sparkleeyes brought this up.
Ok I know this topic will have a few who disagree, but I thought it should be brought up anyways.
Is the feminist movement in some way stirred up by satan? If we look at the Church's current state with a lot more female pastors and leaders we could possibly agree this is the cause of satan and spiritual warfare. How many churches have been divided because of a denomination allowing women ministers? How many friendships have been torn apart over this as well? The Church is in a confused state and satan is loving every bit of it.
1 Corinthians 14:33 NASB
"for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints"
So if this confusion within the church isn't from God then that only leaves us to ascertain that it is coming from satan. Satan wants nothing more than to destroy the Church and divide it.
John 10:10 NASB
The thief (satan) comes only to steal and kill and destroy;
So with this feminist movement women have a lot more rights than they had before. So according to the Bible do women have a right to be a pastor/leader of the Church? The Bible does say men and women have the same equality.
1. Made in God's Image
2. Dominion over the Earth
3. Joint heirs in Christ
The equality men have with women has nothing to do with leadership in the Church or the home. The feminist movement is a form of rebellion and the Bible has something to say about rebellion.
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He has also rejected you from being king.
Granted this verse is referring to Saul and his disobedience to God, we can surely use it in any part or our lives. If men or women rebel against the Word of God, He will reject us. Now why would God claim women should submit to their husbands and not have equal roles in the household and the Church? There are a few verses that can clarify this in the Bible and it starts in Genesis and the fall of man.
In Genesis 2:22 we see that God created a women out of Adams rib. Man was created first for a reason, and this reason is to be the symbol of leadership in the family and spiritual leadership.
In Genesis 3 we see the women being deceived by satan and therefore causing the fall of man. Granted man also ate the fruit, but since the woman was the one deceived she was punished for it and we see that punishment in Genesis 4:16.
"To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
The Word of God is truth and technically we don't have to go any further than the part where God says man will rule over a woman. This doesn't mean men can be abusive to a woman, but within the household and spiritual concerns the man is the leader. Even in the New Testament it speaks of this same command from God; so we know it didn't end with the old law.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in Church"
So this solidifies what the Old Testament says about man and woman. A lot of people will say Paul was speaking to a certain Church, but I disagree. Why would he comment on creation and the fall of man if this was for just one Church?
Another verse in the Bible claims that women are a weaker vessel.
1 Peter 3:7
"You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman"
This verse is talking about submitting to our wives but not submitting to them as a leader but out of understanding and being sensitive to their needs. Now the verse does say the woman is weaker than the man. I am not fully sure this is speaking of physically weaker or spiritually? Could it be because of the temptation with satan and Eve that God considers women weaker spiritually than man and that is another motivation behind not allowing a woman to be a leader? This is just my speculation and most likely it is the physical part that men need to be sensitive towards.
The biggest argument I have come across with the women pastors or leaders is the Holy Spirit spoke to me and this is what He said. The bible speaks of testing the spirits and if a spirit or a person is telling you that this is ok then we are to test the spirits with the Word of God. If the Word of God doesn't line up with what the spirit is saying then we are not to go along with it.
1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"
Psalms 119:169
"Let my cry come before You, O Lord; Give me understanding according to Your Word"
So from what we see from the Word of God we are to test the spirits and get clear understanding according to the Word of God. If it doesn't line up with the Word of God then it isn't coming from the Holy Spirit.
The next verse it talks about Christ being the head of every man and man to woman.
1 Corinthians 11:3-9
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ"
The Word of God speaks for itself and clearly states the roles of man and women. If we believe the Bible is God Breathed, then we have to accept that every part of the Bible is truth.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
The Word is Truth
John 17:17
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth"
Psalm 119:160
"The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting"
Titus 1:6-7 and 1 Timothy 3:2 both give qualifications for leaders of a church and specifically state it is a man not a woman.
I believe I have provided enough evidence that the Word of God states the man is the leader of the household and the Church. I believe the result of the feminist movement has caused a lot of division in the Church lately and this is caused by satan and spiritual warfare.
I have many women in my life and I respect all of them. I have female family members who have mentored me in the Word of God and I love them dearly. Even though they have been mentors of mine they all agree that women should not be leaders of the Church and it is the man’s responsibility to be in charge of the household. I hope this brings some good conversation and doesn't cause any type of bad feelings because someone disagrees.
Lance
Ok I know this topic will have a few who disagree, but I thought it should be brought up anyways.
Is the feminist movement in some way stirred up by satan? If we look at the Church's current state with a lot more female pastors and leaders we could possibly agree this is the cause of satan and spiritual warfare. How many churches have been divided because of a denomination allowing women ministers? How many friendships have been torn apart over this as well? The Church is in a confused state and satan is loving every bit of it.
1 Corinthians 14:33 NASB
"for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints"
So if this confusion within the church isn't from God then that only leaves us to ascertain that it is coming from satan. Satan wants nothing more than to destroy the Church and divide it.
John 10:10 NASB
The thief (satan) comes only to steal and kill and destroy;
So with this feminist movement women have a lot more rights than they had before. So according to the Bible do women have a right to be a pastor/leader of the Church? The Bible does say men and women have the same equality.
1. Made in God's Image
2. Dominion over the Earth
3. Joint heirs in Christ
The equality men have with women has nothing to do with leadership in the Church or the home. The feminist movement is a form of rebellion and the Bible has something to say about rebellion.
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He has also rejected you from being king.
Granted this verse is referring to Saul and his disobedience to God, we can surely use it in any part or our lives. If men or women rebel against the Word of God, He will reject us. Now why would God claim women should submit to their husbands and not have equal roles in the household and the Church? There are a few verses that can clarify this in the Bible and it starts in Genesis and the fall of man.
In Genesis 2:22 we see that God created a women out of Adams rib. Man was created first for a reason, and this reason is to be the symbol of leadership in the family and spiritual leadership.
In Genesis 3 we see the women being deceived by satan and therefore causing the fall of man. Granted man also ate the fruit, but since the woman was the one deceived she was punished for it and we see that punishment in Genesis 4:16.
"To the woman He said, I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth, in pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for your husband, And he will rule over you."
The Word of God is truth and technically we don't have to go any further than the part where God says man will rule over a woman. This doesn't mean men can be abusive to a woman, but within the household and spiritual concerns the man is the leader. Even in the New Testament it speaks of this same command from God; so we know it didn't end with the old law.
1 Timothy 2:11-15
"A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
"The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in Church"
So this solidifies what the Old Testament says about man and woman. A lot of people will say Paul was speaking to a certain Church, but I disagree. Why would he comment on creation and the fall of man if this was for just one Church?
Another verse in the Bible claims that women are a weaker vessel.
1 Peter 3:7
"You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman"
This verse is talking about submitting to our wives but not submitting to them as a leader but out of understanding and being sensitive to their needs. Now the verse does say the woman is weaker than the man. I am not fully sure this is speaking of physically weaker or spiritually? Could it be because of the temptation with satan and Eve that God considers women weaker spiritually than man and that is another motivation behind not allowing a woman to be a leader? This is just my speculation and most likely it is the physical part that men need to be sensitive towards.
The biggest argument I have come across with the women pastors or leaders is the Holy Spirit spoke to me and this is what He said. The bible speaks of testing the spirits and if a spirit or a person is telling you that this is ok then we are to test the spirits with the Word of God. If the Word of God doesn't line up with what the spirit is saying then we are not to go along with it.
1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God"
Psalms 119:169
"Let my cry come before You, O Lord; Give me understanding according to Your Word"
So from what we see from the Word of God we are to test the spirits and get clear understanding according to the Word of God. If it doesn't line up with the Word of God then it isn't coming from the Holy Spirit.
The next verse it talks about Christ being the head of every man and man to woman.
1 Corinthians 11:3-9
"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ"
The Word of God speaks for itself and clearly states the roles of man and women. If we believe the Bible is God Breathed, then we have to accept that every part of the Bible is truth.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work."
The Word is Truth
John 17:17
"Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth"
Psalm 119:160
"The sum of Your word is truth, And every one of Your righteous ordinances is everlasting"
Titus 1:6-7 and 1 Timothy 3:2 both give qualifications for leaders of a church and specifically state it is a man not a woman.
I believe I have provided enough evidence that the Word of God states the man is the leader of the household and the Church. I believe the result of the feminist movement has caused a lot of division in the Church lately and this is caused by satan and spiritual warfare.
I have many women in my life and I respect all of them. I have female family members who have mentored me in the Word of God and I love them dearly. Even though they have been mentors of mine they all agree that women should not be leaders of the Church and it is the man’s responsibility to be in charge of the household. I hope this brings some good conversation and doesn't cause any type of bad feelings because someone disagrees.
Lance
May I ask about this one? Can God be a source of confusion? For example, when the Philistines were confused
during battle or Pythagoras was confused about the nature of rational numbers, could God have been the source of that confusion?