Back to the Law?

Thinking about the desire some have to go back to the law is just plain irrational. Professing Christians trying to go back to the old law to determine what God requires of them today, or to justify practices they can find no authority in the New Testament, it's beyond my comprehension how they arrived at their current thinking. The OT contains prophecy telling of a “new covenant” (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and the NT states that the old law was “nailed…to the cross” (Colossians 2:14), and yet there are those who blur the lines between the two laws!

How could Jesus be one's High Priest today when placing themselves under the OT law? We're so blessed by the law the Lord writes into our hearts, and to have Jesus as our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14). Unlike the OT priests under the OT law, Jesus “holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:24-25). The writer continued, “For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26). Going back to the OT law, then is a nullification of so much that was accomplished for us.

Under the OT law, it's reasonable to consider that Jesus would have been disqualified from the priesthood. Therefore, “a change of law” was necessary (Hebrews 7:12) for Him to write it in our hearts as our High Priest. Under the OT law, priests served from the tribe of Levi; but Jesus “was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests” (Hebrews 7:14).

Because Jesus was not of the specified tribe (Levi), He could not be a priest. That's so earth shaking to my thinking, and the "go back to the law" crowd don't seem to ever consider that. Without Jesus as our High Priest, how could we have forgiveness of sins? The writer of Hebrews said quite clearly, “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4). Because of Christ, in the lineage He was in, we have been “sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10). Those who go back to the OT law, well, they're going back to a system without the sacrifice of Christ, and in which there is no forgiveness and cleansing. Given, then, that there's no forgiveness in going back to the OT law, how can anyone hope to please God through obedience to the OT law? I just don't see that it can be done.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Thinking about the desire some have to go back to the law is just plain irrational. Professing Christians trying to go back to the old law to determine what God requires of them today, or to justify practices they can find no authority in the New Testament, it's beyond my comprehension how they arrived at their current thinking. The OT contains prophecy telling of a “new covenant” (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and the NT states that the old law was “nailed…to the cross” (Colossians 2:14), and yet there are those who blur the lines between the two laws!

How could Jesus be one's High Priest today when placing themselves under the OT law? We're so blessed by the law the Lord writes into our hearts, and to have Jesus as our High Priest (Hebrews 4:14). Unlike the OT priests under the OT law, Jesus “holds His priesthood permanently. Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:24-25). The writer continued, “For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens” (Hebrews 7:26). Going back to the OT law, then is a nullification of so much that was accomplished for us.

Under the OT law, it's reasonable to consider that Jesus would have been disqualified from the priesthood. Therefore, “a change of law” was necessary (Hebrews 7:12) for Him to write it in our hearts as our High Priest. Under the OT law, priests served from the tribe of Levi; but Jesus “was descended from Judah, a tribe with reference to which Moses spoke nothing concerning priests” (Hebrews 7:14).

Because Jesus was not of the specified tribe (Levi), He could not be a priest. That's so earth shaking to my thinking, and the "go back to the law" crowd don't seem to ever consider that. Without Jesus as our High Priest, how could we have forgiveness of sins? The writer of Hebrews said quite clearly, “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Hebrews 10:4). Because of Christ, in the lineage He was in, we have been “sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (Hebrews 10:10). Those who go back to the OT law, well, they're going back to a system without the sacrifice of Christ, and in which there is no forgiveness and cleansing. Given, then, that there's no forgiveness in going back to the OT law, how can anyone hope to please God through obedience to the OT law? I just don't see that it can be done.

MM
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The primary PURPOSE of the "Law" was to demonstrate to Israel, that they WERE INCAPABLE of obeying it. Consequently, there had to be a SAVIOR.
 
Yes indeed, Bob. They failed to learn their lesson, and now there are today people thinking that they can somehow "please" the Lord, and therefore store up "treasure" in Heaven for attempting to do what is otherwise impossible...as if the Lord has stated somewhere that He has lowered His standard for perfection in the keeping of the law for them to at least try to please Him. I've asked them where that's written, and to this day they have yet to show to me even a hint of such.

MM
 
Thinking about the desire some have to go back to the law is just plain irrational. Professing Christians trying to go back to the old law to determine what God requires of them today, or to justify practices they can find no authority in the New Testament, it's beyond my comprehension how they arrived at their current thinking. The OT contains prophecy telling of a “new covenant” (Jeremiah 31:31-34), and the NT states that the old law was “nailed…to the cross” (Colossians 2:14), and yet there are those who blur the lines between the two laws!
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Two is used throughout the Bible to signify the witness of God as that greater than the witness of man .It must mixed together in order to make one new "perfect law" .Apart from each other no law.

Exodus 25:34-36 King James Version (KJV) And in the candlesticks shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers. And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick. Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold.

Repeating two branches the same as if one. . three times to denotes the end of the matter.

I would offer. It would seem to come from a misunderstanding of the law and its branches as sub laws as different kind of law for different purposes.

Some are purposed according to the letter of the law, scripture (what the eyes see the temporal) wrote by the finger of God. That letter kills showing our helplessness, dying. (First death)

The other branch of faith, or law of faith (the unseen) as a shadow or mystery of the unseen eternal. The law of faith Christ in us was used in the Old Testament saints as a living working that worked in as as shadow .

The gospel revealed in parables is respect to the suffering of Christ beforehand and glory that followed the opening of the resurrection gate.

It was used to preach the gospel that worked in the old testament saints in the same way it works in us that look back to the same demonstration and glory.

Some worship shadows of the prefect law made up of two branches . The just branch and the justifier as one and the same .

Receiving the end of their salvation Christ’s labor of love from the beginning.

1 Peter 1:9-11 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

In that way it would seem the two must be mixed in order to receive the interpretaion.

Mixing the letter of the law the temporal seen with the law of faith the eternal not seen

If there is no mixing of the two then we forfeit the comfort off our God working as One. The Father and the Son. No father no Son . No Son no father, no God

faith the power of God empowers us to work with him making our load lighter .There is nothing we could do to make it lighter without him .As usual he must increase as we decrease .

The proper 20/20 prescription needed for rightly dividing the parables below must be applies if we are hoping in the perfect law the two branches

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.


Hebrews 4 King James Version (KJV) Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being "mixed with faith" in them that heard it.

Make it a goal to mix the two branches and then we can rest being yoked with Him .
 
Musicmaster said:
Garee, there is no mystery. We who are in Christ see clearly what is unseen by the lost. The unseen remains that way only to those who have not eyes to see.

MM
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Yes, we must be careful how we hear or say we do. If the parables which without Christ spoke not are not rightly divided( 2 Corinthians 4:18) there is no mystery .He hides the gospel understanding from them who have no faith but rather seek after sign to wonder after. If no mixing of faith the unseen spiritual with the things seen the temporal. Then we would have the accurate historical with no gospel revealed. the literal understanding both needed .

Matthew 13:13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
 
Garee said:
Yes, we must be careful how we hear or say we do. If the parables which without Christ spoke not are not rightly divided( 2 Corinthians 4:18) there is no mystery .He hides the gospel understanding from them who have no faith but rather seek after sign to wonder after. If no mixing of faith the unseen spiritual with the things seen the temporal. Then we would have the accurate historical with no gospel revealed. the literal understanding both needed .

Matthew 13:13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
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Garee, you seem to take the "parables" and "hidden" stuff way beyond the scope of Christ's statements.

It's one thing to talk about all that's hidden from unbelievers, but when you keep repeating yourself, over and over and over again, ad nausea, about all that's hidden and "unseen" to those of us from whom it is not hidden, and is not a mystery because of God's revelation to us, and all the other allegedly mystical and esoteric knowledge not readily available to all, it gets really old.

May I ask this of you: Will you please speak to us about scriptural things as though we are walking in the Light rather than in the darkness of worldly-minded people? Can you do that? Is it in your vocabulary to address us as mature believers from whom the parables and other revelations and prophecies are not hidden, and therefore refrain from talking to us all as if you're the only one who has any insight to the "hidden" things?

As for myself, that would be much appreciated, and perhaps all others here would appreciate the same consideration.

You see, if there are people here who need to be reminded how blind they are to the hidden things, then I would think they've heard enough from you to start asking about those things, and to date, nobody has inquired of me about those things; at least, not of which I'm aware. Have you? Are they coming to you, seeking sage wisdom of all those "unseen" things they have read you talking about in these forms?

If not, then can we dispense with that stuff? It's not all that impressive to those of us who are mature in the faith, and have studied the scriptures deeply, and with revelations from Holy Spirit of those unseen things.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but please try to see it from our perspective. We want to give thought to your posts, but they tend to shut down the reader because of the impressions you inject into your messages, in that you see us as all walking around, bumping into walls and door jambs in the unrevealing darkness of spiritual blindness.

Some of us may be standing head and shoulders above you in stature. You never know...

Just some food for thought.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Garee, you seem to take the "parables" and "hidden" stuff way beyond the scope of Christ's statements.

It's one thing to talk about all that's hidden from unbelievers, but when you keep repeating yourself, over and over and over again, ad nausea, about all that's hidden and "unseen" to those of us from whom it is not hidden, and is not a mystery because of God's revelation to us, and all the other allegedly mystical and esoteric knowledge not readily available to all, it gets really old.

May I ask this of you: Will you please speak to us about scriptural things as though we are walking in the Light rather than in the darkness of worldly-minded people? Can you do that? Is it in your vocabulary to address us as mature believers from whom the parables and other revelations and prophecies are not hidden, and therefore refrain from talking to us all as if you're the only one who has any insight to the "hidden" things?

As for myself, that would be much appreciated, and perhaps all others here would appreciate the same consideration.

You see, if there are people here who need to be reminded how blind they are to the hidden things, then I would think they've heard enough from you to start asking about those things, and to date, nobody has inquired of me about those things; at least, not of which I'm aware. Have you? Are they coming to you, seeking sage wisdom of all those "unseen" things they have read you talking about in these forms?

If not, then can we dispense with that stuff? It's not all that impressive to those of us who are mature in the faith, and have studied the scriptures deeply, and with revelations from Holy Spirit of those unseen things.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but please try to see it from our perspective. We want to give thought to your posts, but they tend to shut down the reader because of the impressions you inject into your messages, in that you see us as all walking around, bumping into walls and door jambs in the unrevealing darkness of spiritual blindness.

Some of us may be standing head and shoulders above you in stature. You never know...

Just some food for thought.

MM
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Sorry with all due respect not a salvation issue I am not trying the change the simplicity of the gospel. I have a different way of understanding or way to hear and believe then some other or importance for rightly dividing the parables. Not trying to change the simplicity of the gospel.

I was trying to show the importance of the two laws. The letter that which kills and the law of faith the unseen power to heal that working together become one new perfect law. The just and justifier.
 
Garee said:
Sorry with all due respect not a salvation issue I am not trying the change the simplicity of the gospel. I have a different way of understanding or way to hear and believe then some other or importance for rightly dividing the parables. Not trying to change the simplicity of the gospel.

I was trying to show the importance of the two laws. The letter that which kills and the law of faith the unseen power to heal that working together become one new perfect law. The just and justifier.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your take on the scriptures, and what you said about the two sticks, and the two laws. Good stuff, Garee. I'm not trying to get you to change how you see scripture, nor am I trying to put up a wall between you and the Lord. What I'm trying to help you with is an understanding in how others can relate to you and what you share about the scriptures. The spiritual is not unseen to us whose eyes have been opened by the Lord. I would like to see you speak of things where the deep calls to the deep.

When writing as one who is deep calling to the shallow, telling them how they can't see nor understand the things in the depths, they know that already. We can help them to maturity if and when we encounter them, and then we can speak in the manner of milk to those who are on milk, and help them get to the point of weaning off the milk to the meat.

But we, Garee, are on the meat, and are not blind to the "unseen" as you speak much about. The Lord is visible to us in ways that go beyond the physical sight of our eyes. Jesus said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, so the Father is therefore seen by those of us who see Jesus in all parts of life. Physical sight is not so important as spiritual sight, and we have that.

I'm just inviting you to speak to us with that understanding.

Does that make sense?

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
I appreciate your take on the scriptures, and what you said about the two sticks, and the two laws. Good stuff, Garee. I'm not trying to get you to change how you see scripture, nor am I trying to put up a wall between you and the Lord. What I'm trying to help you with is an understanding in how others can relate to you and what you share about the scriptures. The spiritual is not unseen to us whose eyes have been opened by the Lord. I would like to see you speak of things where the deep calls to the deep.

When writing as one who is deep calling to the shallow, telling them how they can't see nor understand the things in the depths, they know that already. We can help them to maturity if and when we encounter them, and then we can speak in the manner of milk to those who are on milk, and help them get to the point of weaning off the milk to the meat.

But we, Garee, are on the meat, and are not blind to the "unseen" as you speak much about. The Lord is visible to us in ways that go beyond the physical sight of our eyes. Jesus said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, so the Father is therefore seen by those of us who see Jesus in all parts of life. Physical sight is not so important as spiritual sight, and we have that.

I'm just inviting you to speak to us with that understanding.

Does that make sense?

MM
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I appreciate the tweaking I am no scholar . Thanks

I first started as a new beliver trying to defend the faith on a Catholic /Protestant board where I sometimes do go back to there are some older posters who did not give up on me. .I did that for a period of over 10 years. Good experience.

I had an early interest in the reformation (15th century) one of the things that drew me to look for fellowship. My pastor who preached the gospel came from a Catholic background and wanted do radio work like disc jokey . . When he heard the gospel through a friend he became a pastor starting out as a missionary in Bogota South America for 11 years. (Highly Roman Catholic ) Him and his wife adopted two boys.

Looking at the15th. Century reformation it makes it clearer to understand what happen at the 1st century reformation (carbon copy same law of the fathers).. I heard it through the grape vine oral tradition of men ) Not all sects as a hierarchy of men did reform to all things written in the law and the prophets during the 1st century .It would seemed to have spread like wild fire.

Not an excuse but the reason most likely I have used that “seen or unseen”.to emphasize

Looking for new ideas for ways to emphasize the mixing of faith and its value to give us rest Can’t improve the bible In that way .But we can share how we teach or say we hear as we seek His approval.

He informs us to call no man teacher of earth , no man Father on earth one is in heaven in that way He teaches us what to believe giving us the power to carry it out .The power to teach, comfort and last but not least empower our memories reminding us of the things he previously has taught

John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
 
Musicmaster said:
Garee, you seem to take the "parables" and "hidden" stuff way beyond the scope of Christ's statements.

It's one thing to talk about all that's hidden from unbelievers, but when you keep repeating yourself, over and over and over again, ad nausea, about all that's hidden and "unseen" to those of us from whom it is not hidden, and is not a mystery because of God's revelation to us, and all the other allegedly mystical and esoteric knowledge not readily available to all, it gets really old.

May I ask this of you: Will you please speak to us about scriptural things as though we are walking in the Light rather than in the darkness of worldly-minded people? Can you do that? Is it in your vocabulary to address us as mature believers from whom the parables and other revelations and prophecies are not hidden, and therefore refrain from talking to us all as if you're the only one who has any insight to the "hidden" things?

As for myself, that would be much appreciated, and perhaps all others here would appreciate the same consideration.

You see, if there are people here who need to be reminded how blind they are to the hidden things, then I would think they've heard enough from you to start asking about those things, and to date, nobody has inquired of me about those things; at least, not of which I'm aware. Have you? Are they coming to you, seeking sage wisdom of all those "unseen" things they have read you talking about in these forms?

If not, then can we dispense with that stuff? It's not all that impressive to those of us who are mature in the faith, and have studied the scriptures deeply, and with revelations from Holy Spirit of those unseen things.

I'm not trying to hurt your feelings, but please try to see it from our perspective. We want to give thought to your posts, but they tend to shut down the reader because of the impressions you inject into your messages, in that you see us as all walking around, bumping into walls and door jambs in the unrevealing darkness of spiritual blindness.

Some of us may be standing head and shoulders above you in stature. You never know...

Just some food for thought.

MM
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Music.....You said of Garee..............
"Garee, you seem to take the "parables" and "hidden" stuff way beyond the scope of Christ's statements."

That is the perfect explanation of " GNOSTICISEM!"
 
Musicmaster said:
I appreciate your take on the scriptures, and what you said about the two sticks, and the two laws. Good stuff, Garee. I'm not trying to get you to change how you see scripture, nor am I trying to put up a wall between you and the Lord. What I'm trying to help you with is an understanding in how others can relate to you and what you share about the scriptures. The spiritual is not unseen to us whose eyes have been opened by the Lord. I would like to see you speak of things where the deep calls to the deep.

When writing as one who is deep calling to the shallow, telling them how they can't see nor understand the things in the depths, they know that already. We can help them to maturity if and when we encounter them, and then we can speak in the manner of milk to those who are on milk, and help them get to the point of weaning off the milk to the meat.

But we, Garee, are on the meat, and are not blind to the "unseen" as you speak much about. The Lord is visible to us in ways that go beyond the physical sight of our eyes. Jesus said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, so the Father is therefore seen by those of us who see Jesus in all parts of life. Physical sight is not so important as spiritual sight, and we have that.

I'm just inviting you to speak to us with that understanding.

Does that make sense?

MM
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WELL SAID and I agree completely!
 
Major said:
Music.....You said of Garee..............
"Garee, you seem to take the "parables" and "hidden" stuff way beyond the scope of Christ's statements."

That is the perfect explanation of " GNOSTICISEM!"
Click to expand...

" GNOSTICISEM!" Is simply adding knowlegde as another kind of wisdom .Like the law of the fathers I heard it through the grape vine of men Those who seek after signs to wonder by would fall into that same category .

The miracles of parables is they teach us how to walk by faith as new creatures previosly having no faith.

Parables the signified tongue of God is the kind of prophecy that God purposely wrote so that it would be difficult to discover many hidden truths as a work of his faith that he works in us .

Mark4: 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Without parables the signifed tongue of God, Christ spoke not .Some books like the Soing of Songs or the book of Revelation are based on the signified understansing the whole book .Some books use less parables they need the preceition for rightly diving them. . .a valuable tool to the beleiver who is seeking the aporoval of God. .

2 Corinthains 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 
Garee said:
" GNOSTICISEM!" Is simply adding knowlegde as another kind of wisdom .Like the law of the fathers I heard it through the grape vine of men Those who seek after signs to wonder by would fall into that same category .

The miracles of parables is they teach us how to walk by faith as new creatures previosly having no faith.

Parables the signified tongue of God is the kind of prophecy that God purposely wrote so that it would be difficult to discover many hidden truths as a work of his faith that he works in us .

Mark4: 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Without parables the signifed tongue of God, Christ spoke not .Some books like the Soing of Songs or the book of Revelation are based on the signified understansing the whole book .Some books use less parables they need the preceition for rightly diving them. . .a valuable tool to the beleiver who is seeking the aporoval of God. .

2 Corinthains 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
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GNOSTCISM Garee is heresy!!!! You are adding YOUR opinions which YOU think is some kind of wisdom which is in fact NOT wisdom at all.

Yu just "added" some words about miracles and again "parables". That has nothing to do with the focus of the thread at all. It is YOU using another smoke screen of WORDS to cloud the questions proposed.

I ask you again......Do YOU believe that Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% Man and that when He was incarnated He was the GOD-MAN???

YES or NO ???
 
Major said:
Are you referring to organized Christian meetings and Bible teaching doctrines or something else???

Something else may be ...."Phycology" or "Philosophy" or maybe a "World View Idea".

Just curious?
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being a Christian is about a personal relationship with Christ.. a nurse asked me what religion i said Born again
 
forgiven61 said:
being a Christian is about a personal relationship with Christ.. a nurse asked me what religion i said Born again
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When someone asks me about my religion, I always say that I don't have any since I'm not religious. Anyone can be religious. I'm a biblicist, and I'm a slave and a co-heir with Christ Jesus. If they say, "Ah, a Christian...," I ask how THEY define Christian, because that could mean anything, depending on who you're talking with. Many groups claim to be Christian.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
When someone asks me about my religion, I always say that I don't have any since I'm not religious. Anyone can be religious. I'm a biblicist, and I'm a slave and a co-heir with Christ Jesus. If they say, "Ah, a Christian...," I ask how THEY define Christian, because that could mean anything, depending on who you're talking with. Many groups claim to be Christian.

MM
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Right there with you!!!!!
 
Major said:
GNOSTCISM Garee is heresy!!!! You are adding YOUR opinions which YOU think is some kind of wisdom which is in fact NOT wisdom at all.

Yu just "added" some words about miracles and again "parables". That has nothing to do with the focus of the thread at all. It is YOU using another smoke screen of WORDS to cloud the questions proposed.

I ask you again......Do YOU believe that Jesus Christ is 100% God and 100% Man and that when He was incarnated He was the GOD-MAN???

YES or NO ???
Click to expand...
To deny that would be rank heresy!
 
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