I'm in conversation these days with a HR movement follower, and I got him to admit that seeking to obey the law has nothing to do with our redemption. He admitted that only the sacrifice of Christ Jesus justifies and redeems us.

Good.

But...

He is stuck on the idea that we must seek to obey the law in order to do the works the Lord has called us to...works of that allegedly please the Lord.

What I'm waiting on him to answer now is where the Lord ever lowered the bar of His acceptance below perfection in relation to our efforts to obey the law, no matter what our aim or His. To be seen as righteous one had to obey the law perfectly.

It will be interesting to see what he has to say about how they can possibly please the Lord with less than perfect attempts at obedience to the law. He begged that I would give him two hours to get back to me on that one...I suspect because he was desperate to get an answer to that from his teachers/elders...

MM
 
I'm in conversation these days with a HR movement follower, and I got him to admit that seeking to obey the law has nothing to do with our redemption. He admitted that only the sacrifice of Christ Jesus justifies and redeems us.

Good.

But...

He is stuck on the idea that we must seek to obey the law in order to do the works the Lord has called us to...works of that allegedly please the Lord.

What I'm waiting on him to answer now is where the Lord ever lowered the bar of His acceptance below perfection in relation to our efforts to obey the law, no matter what our aim or His. To be seen as righteous one had to obey the law perfectly.

It will be interesting to see what he has to say about how they can possibly please the Lord with less than perfect attempts at obedience to the law. He begged that I would give him two hours to get back to me on that one...I suspect because he was desperate to get an answer to that from his teachers/elders...

MM
My experience with HR persons is that they exalt Moses over Abraham and Paul. It's a no wonder since the walk of faith is down played...

Speaking of pleasing the Lord..

Hebrews 11:6 ESV
[6] And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
 
Well, his response avoided answering my question about perfection in obedience to the law, so I asked it again to see if he will continue avoiding it.

Good post, CN. I like that reference and its relevance to this topic.

MM
 
Well, my Hebrew Roots acquaintance was unable to answer my question about the requirement to live the law perfectly for both salvation and pleasing the Lord. He has tucked his tail between his legs (so to speak) and run like a scared little bunny. He even claimed that his responses to me were being erased, which none of the rest of our conversation was ever erased... It's all still there.

He totally disregarded the contextual verses I posted about FAITH being what pleases the Lord. He even tried to use 1 John 3:4 to strengthen his case, and when we read that verse in context, it clearly is not promoting the idea of going back to the law.

Folks, the law is righteous. Had it not been righteous, the Lord would never have commanded the Israelites to live it, to obey it to the letter. So, that verse declares that when one sins, they are violating the law. Paul said that apart from the law, we would not know what sin is in this life.

What he also failed to do is read that context for what it DOES NOT say. A good practice that I have long since picked up on is that when I read key sections of scripture that address something I believe, I also consider...does this uphold the surrounding things I believe about the topic? Rather than to assume into the text what I believe, the question is, does the text support what I'm thinking in relation to the central topic? That's simply a matter of handling the scriptures with honesty and integrity.

So, the question to them remains unanswered as to where the Lord ever lowered His standard of perfection in relation to the law in order to fir to justify anyone, and even to please the Lord. They seem to think the Lord has lowered His standard of perfection toward the law when it comes to obedience to it.

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

[Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Here's a real clencher:

Luke 16:16 The law and the prophets [were] until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

People, do you see that? The law and the prophets were UNITL John. Dare we read what ALL scripture has to say on the subject, He is not saying the law passed away, nor that we all should remain bound to it, but that the law and prophets were binding upon mankind UNTIL the ministry of John the Baptist. What did he do? He prepared the way for Christ Jesus. When we passed into the Kingdom of God, the curse of the law and the prophets was no longer binding upon mankind.

Why anyone would want to walk away from the freedom from any curse is beyond my comprehension. The enemy of our souls has many a professing believer under their influences, which is tragic. When they refuse to let God's word speak for itself, they are enslaved to whatever the false teachers meet out to them that they choose to embrace.

MM+
 
I've been studying about the law of Moses, ordinances, commands...whatever one may choose to call them, and what Paul had to say about them in how they relate to the Gentile and Jewish followers of Yeshua. What drove me to this is the growing number of professing believers who are going about and teaching others that we as Christians are required to seek to obey "God's law," which is the ten commandments and/or the law of Moses.

Now, I want to make it clear that the polar opposite to going back to obedience to the law is not a matter of disobedience to the point that we can then commit fornication, adultery, idolatry, murder, etc. Not at all. What I've been finding is that Paul had much to say about the law, and how it relates to us today. Paul has already dealt with that argument already. This is not about any freedom to live immoral lives.

What have you folks come to understand about the law in relation to the Christian life in this Church age? What has your studies, if any, revealed to you about the law and commandments?

We are obeying the law of God according to its letter "death' . The work of corruption. . Death has reigned beginning with Adam ans Eve. .

On the last day under the Sun the law with its sufering unto death( Hell) will be tossed in the spirit of firery judgment never to rise and condem to death another entire creation. .The death of death the law.( death to the cause of death )

John 6 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
We are obeying the law of God according to its letter "death' . The work of corruption. . Death has reigned beginning with Adam ans Eve. .

On the last day under the Sun the law with its sufering unto death( Hell) will be tossed in the spirit of firery judgment never to rise and condem to death another entire creation. .The death of death the law.( death to the cause of death )

John 6 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

The difference, Garee, is which law of God. The letter that kills is no longer binding upon us who are in Christ Jesus. Yes, we all will likely die a physical death because of sin, but the second death has no power over us. It's always nice to speak the distinction.

Now, if Christ Jesus comes in the clouds and calls the dead first, and then the living up to meet Him there while we are still alive, then that is what it is. We will not die a physical death but be transformed instantly, as it is written.

MM
 
The difference, Garee, is which law of God. The letter that kills is no longer binding upon us who are in Christ Jesus. Yes, we all will likely die a physical death because of sin, but the second death has no power over us. It's always nice to speak the distinction.

Now, if Christ Jesus comes in the clouds and calls the dead first, and then the living up to meet Him there while we are still alive, then that is what it is. We will not die a physical death but be transformed instantly, as it is written.

MM

1 Thessalonians 4:17 -........
"Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
 
People, do you see that? The law and the prophets were UNITL John. Dare we read what ALL scripture has to say on the subject, He is not saying the law passed away, nor that we all should remain bound to it, but that the law and prophets were binding upon mankind UNTIL the ministry of John the Baptist. What did he do? He prepared the way for Christ Jesus. When we passed into the Kingdom of God, the curse of the law and the prophets was no longer binding upon mankind.

I would offer from another perspective. What you offered It reminded me of the doctrine of the Witness of God.I think it can apply to the discision of the law.

The law and the prophets together are reckoned as the one “witnesses of God” (sola scriptural) It was used until the ministry of John the Baptist coming in the power of the Holy Spirit reckoned by Elias .

It was fulfilled by the prophet Jesus the Son of man. Jesus the new High priest after the new promised order of the vision (theophany) Melchizdek. Jesus prophesying as the father gave him words to speak.. The Son seeking after the glory of the Father .

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 8 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

The time of reformation had come men and woman priests from all nations bringing the gospel.

The law as to the letter “death” uses the giver of the law Moses to represent our invisible God. John coming in the spirit of Elijah a prophet (Holy Spirit working in mankind) is used to represent the “law of faith” coming in the power of the Spirit of Christ that works in men .

We can see that I believe in the parable the law of faith represented by Elias is working with the letter or what the eyes see.(death, coruption dying). Moses represented as the law giver. Together with the law of faith . .creating one new perfect law the just and justifier . Again the witness of God represented by Moses and Elias.

Peter who it seems struggled to walk by faith missed the meaning of the parable hid form natural mankind. . This is shown by Peter's fleshly desire to build literal tabernacles made with human hands. . an oral tradition of mankind ,that does make the word of faith without effect. .(God's witness)

The believers are the tabernacles, the temple not built with human hands. .Again something Peter struggled with not mixing faith the witness of God in what he did see. Trusting in the witness of men (his own fleshly will)

Matthew 17:3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

I would think in the end of the matter Jesus working with the father together worked out the witness of God the gospel of our salvation

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Luke 16 another example used in a parable using the witness of God to make to no effect the witness of men. . . the oral tradition that teaches the dead can communicate with those living (necromancy) . One of the I heard it through the grape vine oral tradition of men. No room for oral traditions; "the witness of men" in the witness of our great God. God whose name is Jealous will not share his glory with the corupted things of this creation .

Twice to emphasize the witness they are trying to kill (sola scriptural) or make desolate turned it upside down and made the necromancy a witness of men desolate .

Luke 16 29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
 
The difference, Garee, is which law of God. The letter that kills is no longer binding upon us who are in Christ Jesus. Yes, we all will likely die a physical death because of sin, but the second death has no power over us. It's always nice to speak the distinction.

Now, if Christ Jesus comes in the clouds and calls the dead first, and then the living up to meet Him there while we are still alive, then that is what it is. We will not die a physical death but be transformed instantly, as it is written.

MM

I would think the second death is death itself .The letter of the law along with its suferings in dying called hell .it will not rise again in the new order.The old things under the sun will not be remembered or come to mind for ever more. No double jeapordy. No trial of Pope Formoso declaring dead bones guilty and the venerating them.
 
I would offer from another perspective. What you offered It reminded me of the doctrine of the Witness of God.I think it can apply to the discision of the law.

The law and the prophets together are reckoned as the one “witnesses of God” (sola scriptural) It was used until the ministry of John the Baptist coming in the power of the Holy Spirit reckoned by Elias .

It was fulfilled by the prophet Jesus the Son of man. Jesus the new High priest after the new promised order of the vision (theophany) Melchizdek. Jesus prophesying as the father gave him words to speak.. The Son seeking after the glory of the Father .

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 8 49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

The time of reformation had come men and woman priests from all nations bringing the gospel.

The law as to the letter “death” uses the giver of the law Moses to represent our invisible God. John coming in the spirit of Elijah a prophet (Holy Spirit working in mankind) is used to represent the “law of faith” coming in the power of the Spirit of Christ that works in men .

We can see that I believe in the parable the law of faith represented by Elias is working with the letter or what the eyes see.(death, coruption dying). Moses represented as the law giver. Together with the law of faith . .creating one new perfect law the just and justifier . Again the witness of God represented by Moses and Elias.

Peter who it seems struggled to walk by faith missed the meaning of the parable hid form natural mankind. . This is shown by Peter's fleshly desire to build literal tabernacles made with human hands. . an oral tradition of mankind ,that does make the word of faith without effect. .(God's witness)

The believers are the tabernacles, the temple not built with human hands. .Again something Peter struggled with not mixing faith the witness of God in what he did see. Trusting in the witness of men (his own fleshly will)

Matthew 17:3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

I would think in the end of the matter Jesus working with the father together worked out the witness of God the gospel of our salvation

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

Luke 16 another example used in a parable using the witness of God to make to no effect the witness of men. . . the oral tradition that teaches the dead can communicate with those living (necromancy) . One of the I heard it through the grape vine oral tradition of men. No room for oral traditions; "the witness of men" in the witness of our great God. God whose name is Jealous will not share his glory with the corupted things of this creation .

Twice to emphasize the witness they are trying to kill (sola scriptural) or make desolate turned it upside down and made the necromancy a witness of men desolate .

Luke 16 29-31 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

And yet, in all that, we are free from the letter of the law and its curse.

MM
 
I would think the second death is death itself .The letter of the law along with its suferings in dying called hell .it will not rise again in the new order.The old things under the sun will not be remembered or come to mind for ever more. No double jeapordy. No trial of Pope Formoso declaring dead bones guilty and the venerating them.

Uh, no. The second death is final and forever...irreversible, as you said.

MM
 
Uh, no. The second death is final and forever...irreversible, as you said.

MM

You are correct MM.

The 2nd death is the “death” in that it is a separation from God, the Giver of life. It is called the “second” one because it follows physical death.

Revelation 21:8 explains the second death in the most detail:......
“The cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars – their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

So then it is both a PLACE, the Lake of Fire and an ACTION, the seperation from God eternally.
 
Uh, no. The second death is final and forever...irreversible, as you said.

MM
Yes never to rise to new spirit life. Only those given a new born again spirit and heart can rise and receive the propmise.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The second death. . the death of death itself (the letter of the law) .It wil not rise up an condemn another entire creation. It wil not be remembered any more or ever come to mind. Then the lion wil lay down with the child
 
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Yes never to rise to new spirit life. Only those given a new born again spirit and heart can rise and receive the propmise.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

The second death. . the death of death itself (the letter of the law) .It wil not rise up an condemn another entire creation. It wil not be remembered any more or ever come to mind. Then the lion wil lay down with the child

Blessedly, Ezekiel 36:26 speaks of what happens in this life after placing one's faith in Christ Jesus.

MM
 
Oh, before I forget, one of the key terms in that verse, "justified" according to Thayer's Greek lexicon, in that grammatical construct and sentence meaning, is defined as "to judge, pronounce, declare righteous and therefore acceptable in obeying the law, or by keeping it."

Another key term in that sentence, "grace," is defined in that context and grammatical construct as, "kindness which bestows upon one what he has not deserved, to be subject to the power of grace..."

Pretty powerful stuff, and yet I continue to encounter those who argue that verse and its context is an appeal to not following the traditions the Jews added to the word of God, thus making it of no effect. Throughout that section, I can't find any reference to "tradition" or anything else apart from the very law of Moses and a command for circumcision in particular.

Additionally, the Greek word translated "law" is in fact a reference to "the law of Moses, under the dominion of the law."

Once I clarified that, among other items of interest that were downplayed by some, I found it impossible to believe in any attempt to spiritualize the passage into saying whatever others want it to say in support of their chosen beliefs.

Thoughts?

I'm reading the posts in this thread, and have read all yours - I'm sure this is just me right now - but I can't figure out what your stance is on this issue?

My stance is fairly straightforward; when Jesus was asked what were the greatest commandments in saying; Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and the second like it love your neighbor as yourself (paraphrased that from memory Matthew 22:38-40) He was basically saying all 10 were the greatest commands...

Why do I say this? Because the first grouping of the 10 commands were God facing, and the last grouping are all man-facing, and in pure love you fulfill them all perfectly.

Of course, none of us are so perfect even saved, which is why we need a Savior to begin with, but as saved Children of God we strive to fulfill all in love - both of God and one another.

If you love your wife your not coming home from work of an evening and beat on her. No. Your going to do things that make her happy.

It's the same with God, the same things are abominations in His eyes now as they were 3,000 years ago. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. As His children we then strive to do what is pleasing to God, which is both an attitude that is God facing first, and man facing second.

We aren't saved by it, only God can justify us, however if we are saved we will do these things in love and obedience, because when we are saved they are written upon our very flesh (Jeremiah 31:31-34 if memory serves me correctly.) Written on our minds and hearts, the covenant which now is...
 
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I'm in conversation these days with a HR movement follower, and I got him to admit that seeking to obey the law has nothing to do with our redemption. He admitted that only the sacrifice of Christ Jesus justifies and redeems us.

Good.

But...

He is stuck on the idea that we must seek to obey the law in order to do the works the Lord has called us to...works of that allegedly please the Lord.

What I'm waiting on him to answer now is where the Lord ever lowered the bar of His acceptance below perfection in relation to our efforts to obey the law, no matter what our aim or His. To be seen as righteous one had to obey the law perfectly.

It will be interesting to see what he has to say about how they can possibly please the Lord with less than perfect attempts at obedience to the law. He begged that I would give him two hours to get back to me on that one...I suspect because he was desperate to get an answer to that from his teachers/elders...

MM

In a sense they aren't wrong (I'm a lot Puritan btw.. lol) In another sense they take it too far.

For Instance, since I've been saved I can't remember even one day I fulfilled even the first commandment perfectly (Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul) Can't do it - the cares of this world leaves that imperfect.

So the sinless perfection people reduce the meaning of what it is to truly follow the commandments to something meaningless and make light of sin, which we can never ever do...

We couldn't, in this flesh, fulfill the law - although we strive to be what God desires us to be.
 
I'm reading the posts in this thread, and have read all yours - I'm sure this is just me right now - but I can't figure out what your stance is on this issue?

My stance is fairly straightforward; when Jesus was asked what were the greatest commandments in saying; Love God with all your heart, mind and soul and the second like it love your neighbor as yourself (paraphrased that from memory Matthew 22:38-40) He was basically saying all 10 were the greatest commands...

Why do I say this? Because the first grouping of the 10 commands were God facing, and the last grouping are all man-facing, and in pure love you fulfill them all perfectly.

Of course, none of us are so perfect even saved, which is why we need a Savior to begin with, but as saved Children of God we strive to fulfill all in love - both of God and one another.

If you love your wife your not coming home from work of an evening and beat on her. No. Your going to do things that make her happy.

It's the same with God, the same things are abominations in His eyes now as they were 3,000 years ago. He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. As His children we then strive to do what is pleasing to God, which is both an attitude that is God facing first, and man facing second.

We aren't saved by it, only God can justify us, however if we are saved we will do these things in love and obedience, because when we are saved they are written upon our very flesh (Jeremiah 31:31-34 if memory serves me correctly.) Written on our minds and hearts, the covenant which now is...

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

The context of this verse addresses giving good things to one's own child when asked, rather than a stone or a serpent. What's interesting is that the Lord did not say that ALL the law and prophets hang on this. However:

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Violation of ANY of the righteous, written laws is a violation of one or both of the two commandments upon which ALL the law hangs.

Now, if one were to argue that THEN keeping these two items is possible, given that the letter killeth, but the Spirit given life, he is fooling only himself.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This speaks of the more profound means by which we (Jew and Gentiles) obey the law.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

So, there are those who are "going back to the letter of the law" with the misguided understanding that they can now live the letter of the law as a pleasure to God, and I'm saying that they're failing miserably at pleasing God by trying to obey the letter of the law.

Why?

Because when it comes to the letter of the law, the only acceptable measure of obedience to that letter is perfection, whether the intent be for justification or pleasing the Lord.

When the two commandments Jesus addressed are written in our hearts, we "...do by nature the things contained in the law..."

Reading and trying to obey it as a part of our nature simply isn't possible. When the Lord writes it in our hearts, it is THEN that it becomes a part of our nature. That simply is a natural outflow from the new birth. That is the only way we can please the Lord in relation to the law as opposed to abiding by the letter.

Does that make more clear the position I have stated?

I appreciate these kinds of challenges for clarity. They push me to dig deeper into explaining the more difficult concepts, and to explain with better and more robust terminology, the depths that the word of God instills within those who study His word, especially when we remain consistent with the contexts of the verses we use to weave together the golden and bejeweled tapestry of truth and doctrine.

So, my HR friends are vying for the inferior letter on papyrus rather than striving for what is superior that originates from their very nature when it's written in their hearts by the very Finger (figuratively speaking) of the indwelling Law Giver. So, the Jews in Jerusalem in Paul's time, and modern HR people, were/are zealous for the inferior letter, and are therefore focused upon attempting what ends up imperfect, which I don't think can possibly please God given that it can't earn justification for sin nor the pleasure of God after the cross.

MM
 
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

The context of this verse addresses giving good things to one's own child when asked, rather than a stone or a serpent. What's interesting is that the Lord did not say that ALL the law and prophets hang on this. However:

Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Violation of ANY of the righteous, written laws is a violation of one or both of the two commandments upon which ALL the law hangs.

Now, if one were to argue that THEN keeping these two items is possible, given that the letter killeth, but the Spirit given life, he is fooling only himself.

Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This speaks of the more profound means by which we (Jew and Gentiles) obey the law.

Romans 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Romans 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another...

So, there are those who are "going back to the letter of the law" with the misguided understanding that they can now live the letter of the law as a pleasure to God, and I'm saying that they're failing miserably at pleasing God by trying to obey the letter of the law.

Why?

Because when it comes to the letter of the law, the only acceptable measure of obedience to that letter is perfection, whether the intent be for justification or pleasing the Lord.

When the two commandments Jesus addressed are written in our hearts, we "...do by nature the things contained in the law..."

Reading and trying to obey it as a part of our nature simply isn't possible. When the Lord writes it in our hearts, it is THEN that it becomes a part of our nature. That simply is a natural outflow from the new birth. That is the only way we can please the Lord in relation to the law as opposed to abiding by the letter.

Does that make more clear the position I have stated?

I appreciate these kinds of challenges for clarity. They push me to dig deeper into explaining the more difficult concepts, and to explain with better and more robust terminology, the depths that the word of God instills within those who study His word, especially when we remain consistent with the contexts of the verses we use to weave together the golden and bejeweled tapestry of truth and doctrine.

So, my HR friends are vying for the inferior letter on papyrus rather than striving for what is superior that originates from their very nature when it's written in their hearts by the very Finger (figuratively speaking) of the indwelling Law Giver. So, the Jews in Jerusalem in Paul's time, and modern HR people, were/are zealous for the inferior letter, and are therefore focused upon attempting what ends up imperfect, which I don't think can possibly please God given that it can't earn justification for sin nor the pleasure of God after the cross.

MM


Did you read my second post (underneath the one you quoted) and would you say we are on the same page?
 
In a sense they aren't wrong (I'm a lot Puritan btw.. lol) In another sense they take it too far.

For Instance, since I've been saved I can't remember even one day I fulfilled even the first commandment perfectly (Love God with all your heart, mind, and soul) Can't do it - the cares of this world leaves that imperfect.

So the sinless perfection people reduce the meaning of what it is to truly follow the commandments to something meaningless and make light of sin, which we can never ever do...

We couldn't, in this flesh, fulfill the law - although we strive to be what God desires us to be.

Like I pointed out above, doing "by nature" what is in the law, as opposed to the inherent imperfections in physical efforts for obedience to the written letter of the law, given our fallen state, you're right. Even when we "do by nature" what rises up from us for the law , we will still sin at times. Paul defined sin as "missing the mark." How far off the mark do you suppose it is to go back to attempts at obeying the letter of the law at the exclusion of what should be us doing "by nature" what should be written in our hearts? When we realize how vastly superior the law written in our hearts are (in relation to our ability to obey it) to the inferior written letter, there would be no need to go back to the letter.

MM
 
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