Are you saying that Abraham, Moses ,Enoch ,Elijah and no one that died during the time of the law of Moses will enter Heaven .
I was unaware that the thief on the cross was also a murderer .
Baptism
- Thread starter eric m williams
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I was unaware that the thief on the cross was also a murderer .
No, I did not say those people would not enter heaven, and I confess to being surprised at the question, but you are right about the thief on the cross. A murderer was released instead of Jesus.
My point was that the thief was not baptised, yet was promised paradise. You implied he was under the Old Covenant, which if he was bound by law, would demonstrate his eternal guilt!
But lets go way back beyond Abraham and Enoch and all the way to Adam.
Ever since creation, anyone who called on the name of the Lord could be eternally saved by faith.
Galatians3v6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Even though Adam was many generations earlier, the same principle spoken about Abraham applies to him and all his descendants. By children of Abraham, it just means they are children by faith, not law.
John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.......................................
.....................1John1v12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
This is about believing and putting your trust in the word/logos who is and was God, God who created all things, the light of the world. All of them are sons of God. That means all the ancient patriarchs etc were born again long before Jesus mentioned it in John3.
New birth was true for Abel, who obviously wasn't an Israelite, nor under the law of Moses, and also true for Zechariah, and for me and you.
At what point in time do separate the law of Moses from the New Covenant .
Is the change before or after Jesus died on the cross
In my view it happened either when Jesus first announced it in Matthew 26v28, or at the cross. But your question misses the point that nobody ever got to heaven via the Old Covenant! As stated previously, the only way to eternal life was by placing your trust in the one who made you. That has never changed.
Although the earthly price for that redemption was paid at Calvary 2000 years ago, it was applicable as the lamb slain from the foundation of the earth. (Do not forget that God dwells outside of time!)
The Old Covenant was a brand new statute book of law for a brand new nation. Much like the US constitution came suddenly. (Obviously the USA also had the whole package of Common law inherited from England).
Unlike the USA, Israel was certainly not meant to inherit the statute book of law or any constitution inherited from Egypt. Obedience to God's law meant that "none of these diseases" etc. of Egypt would strike Israel, but it did not entitle them to eternal life.
1Timothy1v8We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9We also know that the law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10for the sexually immoral, for those practicing homosexuality, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine
According to your view Abraham , Enuch or Elijah was not in Heaven .
Where was Abraham when the rich man asked him to allow Lazarus to dip his finger in water to quench his thirst .
Hebrews 9 explains how and when the new covenant was established .
What?????????
Where on earth did you get that from, I certainly didn't say that. Of course Abraham was and is still in heaven.
Please go back and read my comments more slowly. I make it clear that the patriarchs were and are sons of God. Therefore they must be with their heavenly Father, but not because of following the law.
And Hebrews 9 agrees with what I posted.
Please reread your post .
That's right, nobody gets to Paradise under the law of Moses.
That means the law of Moses doesn't get anyone entry to paradise. I am not saying nobody gets to Paradise, but nobody gets there via the law, which I am sure you would agree with.
If my sentence structure confused you, then I apologise, but I would have thought my repeated statements that the patriarchs were born again should have confirmed my stance.
Let me make it clear for the Nth time.-
All Old Testament saints were born again from above by the Spirit of God. This was on account of their faith in their creator God/Logos/Light of the world, just as stated in John1. That means they were and are in heaven with their Father.
They did not get there because they obeyed the law of Moses, because as stated about Abraham, he believed God and that was counted as righteousness. That was 430 years before the law was given.
The same is true for me and you, we trusted the one who created us, as did the thief on the cross.
Have I missed anything?
Have I put my head in a noose? Lol
When you answer these questions you will know the truth of baptism .
Why did Phillip mention baptism to the Eunuch ?
Why did Ananias mention baptism to Paul ?
Why would Paul mention baptism to the jailor and his household ?
What good was it for Peter to mention baptism to Cornelius and his household ?
The only reason is found in Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 .
Why would Peter tell 3000 to be baptized ?
No one will enter Heaven without their sins removed .
No sins will be allowed in Heaven !!!!
Do not believe the doctrines of those who must add words to the scriptures ,to prove their beleifs !
Anyone can use a verse to show a doctrine.
All of the scriptures are required to know the truth .
Why did Phillip mention baptism to the Eunuch ?
Why did Ananias mention baptism to Paul ?
Why would Paul mention baptism to the jailor and his household ?
What good was it for Peter to mention baptism to Cornelius and his household ?
The only reason is found in Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 .
Why would Peter tell 3000 to be baptized ?
No one will enter Heaven without their sins removed .
No sins will be allowed in Heaven !!!!
Do not believe the doctrines of those who must add words to the scriptures ,to prove their beleifs !
Anyone can use a verse to show a doctrine.
All of the scriptures are required to know the truth .
As much as you deny it, you are claiming clearly that we are saved through baptism. That is not the true gospel message, but a false gospel, and appears to be a denominational teaching of the Church of Christ...but it is not scriptural.
When you are able to answer why baptism was taught to them ,then you will know the truth .
You are still avoiding my question as to when the thief on the cross got baptised?
Christ is our example. As such, we get baptized for the same reason He did. It is our public testimony of being a child of God, the beginning of our ministry (the conveying of the Gospel to others), and our connection to the body of Christ, since thru baptism we are connected to Christ in His death, burial, and resurrection. We are to be imitators of Christ, just as Paul was.
I know the truth, and also that baptism is for the believer to enter into Christ, by identifying with His death, burial and resurrection, as a sign of belonging to the household of God before the world, just as communion is a sign of the believer, and in the past for the people of God, blood painted on the lintel post was a sign, as well as circumcision was a sign.
Watching this thread..both sides are right theres scriptures supporting baptism as remission of sin and scriptures explaining further what baptism represents.
I dont see why you keep arguing. If you are baptised, and did it for those reasons cos you repented and believed dont worry bout it.
I would only be concerned if you werent baptised at all and had never ever gotten wet.
As for thief on cross (he wasnt a murderer. Dont assume that) he could have been baptised prior to cruicfixion but had to still serve out his sentence.
I dont see why you keep arguing. If you are baptised, and did it for those reasons cos you repented and believed dont worry bout it.
I would only be concerned if you werent baptised at all and had never ever gotten wet.
As for thief on cross (he wasnt a murderer. Dont assume that) he could have been baptised prior to cruicfixion but had to still serve out his sentence.
If you have been reading this thread well, you would see that there is an argument being put forward that baptism is what cleanses us of sin, as if water is the cleansing agent, when the bible clearly teaches that we are saved through the exercising of our faith in Jesus Christ and when we repent of our sins it is the blood of Jesus that is the cleansing agent. We are up against salvation by works...again---and there is nothing right about that. It is a not so subtle false belief that you and everyone would do well to suss out when there is discussion being carried on in various Christian forums.
Awe come on Lanolin, that's completely unrealistic. The only indication of the man's connection to Jesus was whilst being put to death for his crimes, and he was convicted whilst he watched Jesus.
To wave a magic wand and claim out of thin air that he might have been already baptised is plain crazy. If we all interpreted scripture like that, then where would we all be today.
We would have a biblical foundation as solid as mashed potato.
I do appreciate your post .
Have you tried to answer why ,
The Eunuch was told of baptism by Phillip?
Why did Paul mention baptism to the jailer and his household ?
Why Paul was told to be baptized by Ananias ?
Why did Peter tell the 3000 people ,on the day of Pentecost to be baptized ?
It was not to show everyone that they had faith !
Yes, it was to identify with Jesus Christ, and to declare openly to the world that each of them are now part of the Body of Christ.