Bible Verse Sharing and Thoughts

I heard a minister some days ago talking about the Tribulation, and how what is written, that horrid time will drive the lukewarm into making a choice for eternity, and so many will die as a result. He talked about envisioning Jesus standing there, arms held out wide open, and a countless number going to Him, even to the point of death in this life. It is so hard to envision, that so many will come to Jesus in those days, and how in the Millennium, so many will go to their destruction when they come up against the encampment of the saints and of Christ Jesus. Perhaps the reception Jesus had among His chosen people throughout Israel, and how most of the Jewish race rejected Him, that will once again play itself out in the Millennium, except that in that time it will be the Gentile nations who try to go up against the Lord and Jerusalem, and be wiped out by fire brought down from Heaven.

It's agonizing sometimes to think of such hatred. Yet, in the midst of it all stand the redeemed of the Lord, who will then take them all up with Him, wipe out this universe, and create all things new. My tears of longing, when I think upon all this, speak of my heart wanting to be there right now, to experience all that the Lord has for us.

(I need to buy more tissues for those moments in my meditations.) Praise the Lord always, who alone is worthy of all our love, devotion and worship...

MM

God bless you my brother. I can see from your words that you have a tender heart!

Now in all things, especially prophecy, there is a right and a wrong interpretation. The only thing that makes Prophecy true and right is TIME.

I may be wrong on this, but I do not think so. Consider 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12........
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

Take time to read the whole 2nd chapter. The CONTEXT of those Scriptures is that there has been a removal of the church in verse 2:1.
Then in verse #3 the "man of sin" who I believe is the A/c is then revealed.

So all that is left on the Earth is unbelievers who were no "gathered away" as seen in verse #1.

Then comes verse #10..........."in they that perish because they e=received not the love of the truth that they might be saved".

CONTEXT and the "antecedent" of the word "THEY demands that the THEY are the people left (unbelievers) who did not accept Christ and were not "Gathered Away".

Now notice verse #12..........That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

What that says to me is that there will be NO Lukewarm people. The only people then who will be saved during the Tribulation will be those who have not heard the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is the THEY where the Revelation describes as "Tribulation Saints".

The 1st 144 k will be converted virgin, Jewish men. They will be the ones who evangelize the THEY which are the Tribulation Saints.

If 12 Apostles did what they did 2000 years ago, can you imagine what 144K will do ?????/
 
Ephesians 6:10-13

10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.


I believe that the latter days will not be a physical battle, but will be one of spiritual warfare, a fight for the souls of men. That is why we are instructed to put on the gospel armor, the "whole armor of God.” The famine of the end times is for hearing the Word of God.

Could be BOTH?????

I am a "Literalist". That means I accept the Scriptures as they are written UNLESS otherwise directed against such a belief.
 
I know Romans 7 have many adherents claiming it is speaking of Paul's experience before becoming a Christian and quite a number believing it is his experience as a Christian.
I would have to agree with Martyn Lloyd Jones that Paul's purpose of Rom 7 is to show the failure of the law whether it's in justification (before coming to the Lord) or in sanctification (while knowing the Lord).

Well, I am no scholar in any way whatsoever, however I do not think that Paul wrote Romans 7 BEFORE he was saved.

Paul was a Pharisee so of course he delighted in God's law, but because he was unspiritual/ religious lost, he could not keep it to the degree God required.

A great number of Christians just can not accept the fact that they continue to sin after they are saved so they make Romans 7 to be before Paul was saved.

The truth however is that Christians still sin after they come to Christ because the SIN NATURE can not be eradicated!
 
1 John 2:1-2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

This is the basis upon which I operate to share the Gospel to everyone who will listen.

For the believer, sin is the exception, not the rule, for as it says above, if any man sin...

It's dangerous to sin willfully,

MM
 

Nazarene Servant

Account Closed
1 John 2:1-2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

This is the basis upon which I operate to share the Gospel to everyone who will listen.

MM
I love the gentleness of this word as it conveys that though Jesus would be validated
in His choosing to condemn sin, He chooses to love us instead. If I were God I
couldn't do that.
 
Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Thayer's Greek Lexicon says this about the definition of the term "repent":

"to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins"

I had sins in the past that required direct intervention of the Lord to give to me the ability to abhor those sins, and that by doing so, my mind was then changed. It was a miraculous change in my life, and the same is offered to all who go before the Lord who feel they are captive to something, especially those things many people think they were born with.

Freedom is available to all who ask. Sincerity of heart, which the Lord sees if there is indeed sincerity, releases the Power and Holy Spirit to effect wonderful deliverance from sin. If anyone is still struggling with sin, reach out to the Lord, and if that seems too difficult, then men can reach out to a spiritually mature brother in the Lord for counsel and prayer, and women can reach out to a spiritually mature sister for counsel and prayer. There are spiritual giants walking this earth who are the unsung heroes in the faith. They don't tout their importance, and produce ministries under their own names. They are the workers out here where the rubber meets the road.

MM
 
A great number of Christians just can not accept the fact that they continue to sin after they are saved so they make Romans 7 to be before Paul was saved.

The truth however is that Christians still sin after they come to Christ because the SIN NATURE can not be eradicated!
That's why I believe Martyn Lloyd Jones view on Rom 7 makes the best sense. It shows the failure of the law, both for the unbeliever and believer due to it's impotence.
 

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Well, I am no scholar in any way whatsoever, however I do not think that Paul wrote Romans 7 BEFORE he was saved.

Paul was a Pharisee so of course he delighted in God's law, but because he was unspiritual/ religious lost, he could not keep it to the degree God required.

A great number of Christians just can not accept the fact that they continue to sin after they are saved so they make Romans 7 to be before Paul was saved.

The truth however is that Christians still sin after they come to Christ because the SIN NATURE can not be eradicated!

That's why I believe Martyn Lloyd Jones view on Rom 7 makes the best sense. It shows the failure of the law, both for the unbeliever and believer due to it's impotence.

Hello Major and crossnote;

From what I'm reading there are three different areas that we need to align.

First, Paul wrote Romans 7 after he was saved. (Paul's conversion in Acts 9.)

Second, in Romans 7 Paul addresses why the believer is no longer under the law. The law's weight on the sinner causes their sin to increase as well as God's purpose for the law back in Old Testament history that has now ended.

Third, Paul teaches, or explains, more in Romans 7 the relationship between the gospel and Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law though Holy, just and good, still caused sin to increase. The law was helpless to rescue us from our struggle with sin.

In the Gospel, God's people had come to an end with the coming of the Spirit.

Which is why I don't support HR. One can give all the reasons for it's 100 year existence and movement, but in my argument, is not God's reason, I shudder to think we're going to re-write God's Word?

Regarding Martyn Lloyd Jones. I enjoy his teachings and still have a "cassette" of one of his sermons. If I remember he and another minister named John Stott, who I also enjoy, had differences in their theological views.

God bless you, brothers, and your families.
 
Hello Major and crossnote;

From what I'm reading there are three different areas that we need to align.

First, Paul wrote Romans 7 after he was saved. (Paul's conversion in Acts 9.)

Second, in Romans 7 Paul addresses why the believer is no longer under the law. The law's weight on the sinner causes their sin to increase as well as God's purpose for the law back in Old Testament history that has now ended.

Third, Paul teaches, or explains, more in Romans 7 the relationship between the gospel and Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law though Holy, just and good, still caused sin to increase. The law was helpless to rescue us from our struggle with sin.

In the Gospel, God's people had come to an end with the coming of the Spirit.

Which is why I don't support HR. One can give all the reasons for it's 100 year existence and movement, but in my argument, is not God's reason, I shudder to think we're going to re-write God's Word?

Regarding Martyn Lloyd Jones. I enjoy his teachings and still have a "cassette" of one of his sermons. If I remember he and another minister named John Stott, who I also enjoy, had differences in their theological views.

God bless you, brothers, and your families.

Agreed on all 3 of your points!

Tell me what you mean by HR?

I am thinking you are referring to Christian principles applied to nature and creation......help me out and remember, I am just an old country boy who continually needs help!
 

bobinfaith

Senior Moderator
Staff member
Senior Moderator
Agreed on all 3 of your points!

Tell me what you mean by HR?

I am thinking you are referring to Christian principles applied to nature and creation......help me out and remember, I am just an old country boy who continually needs help!

Oops. I should have left that part out. I was referring to Hebrew Roots from another thread that Musicmaster wrote, Back to the Law.
 
Romans 7:4, 6

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. ... 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.

One would think that the followers of the HR movement would see this as settling the matter entirely, but it's very much like so many other minds entrenched within teachings they absolutely are not prepared to abandon. I've had people say to me, "Look, this is what I believe, and it doesn't matter what anyone else says or points out in the Bible. I believe this, and I'm fine with that..."

I mean, what can one say in the face of that level of staunch, indifferent pragmatism? Abandoning the desire to pursue truth, even at the expense of one's comfort zone(s), I'm often floored by the lack of desire to do as Paul of Tarsus instructed:

1Thess. 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Not some things, or even most things, but all things.

MM
 
Hello Major and crossnote;

From what I'm reading there are three different areas that we need to align.

First, Paul wrote Romans 7 after he was saved. (Paul's conversion in Acts 9.)

Second, in Romans 7 Paul addresses why the believer is no longer under the law. The law's weight on the sinner causes their sin to increase as well as God's purpose for the law back in Old Testament history that has now ended.

Third, Paul teaches, or explains, more in Romans 7 the relationship between the gospel and Mosaic law.

The Mosaic law though Holy, just and good, still caused sin to increase. The law was helpless to rescue us from our struggle with sin.

In the Gospel, God's people had come to an end with the coming of the Spirit.

Which is why I don't support HR. One can give all the reasons for it's 100 year existence and movement, but in my argument, is not God's reason, I shudder to think we're going to re-write God's Word?

Regarding Martyn Lloyd Jones. I enjoy his teachings and still have a "cassette" of one of his sermons. If I remember he and another minister named John Stott, who I also enjoy, had differences in their theological views.

God bless you, brothers, and your families.
I was finishing up on a point-by-point response but lost it all. Sorry :(
 
It's so nice when conversations remain on the level of conversational tones. This has been a great thread so far.

Knowing the scriptures can sure help believers relate to one another better.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

That verse has been interpreted a number of tragic ways, but the ignorance of even its existence led to one woman shaking her finger at me as if I had something of which to be ashamed when she saw the title to this song I wrote and played out about seven years ago:

https://soundcloud.com/fourwindsangels%2Fassaulting-the-gates-of-hell
 
4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. ... 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not [in] the oldness of the letter.
I believe a good passage to couple that with is..

Galatians 2:19 (KJV) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

And for the Hebrew Roots adherents...

2 Corinthians 3:7-17 (NASB) But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
 
I often wonder, (and lean towards a 'no' answer).
Do you believe Old Testament saints (believers) were born again?
 
I often wonder, (and lean towards a 'no' answer).
Do you believe Old Testament saints (believers) were born again?

To answer that, we'd have to answer some other questions, so here's what's written in the word:

Ezekiel 18:30-32

30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn [yourselves] from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

That text doesn't speak of that turning to life as a work of Holy Spirit, so I looked some more:

Ezekiel 36:22-28

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

It would seem that before the cross, nobody was born again. Ezekiel spoke of a future time when the Lord would put His Spirit within them, and the fulfillment of what Ezekiel spoke where the Lord gathered them from among the heathen was not fulfilled until some 2600+ years later in about 1948 AD and beyond. Where it is written that righteousness was attributed to the OT saints on the basis of faith, I don't see that they could be born again since Holy Spirit had not yet been given to fill men until after the cross.

Recall that the Jews were confused at the concept of being born again. Had that been a concept in their understanding, one would think Jesus would not have had to explain it to them.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

One might be able to logically deduce that when Jesus led the captives free from Abraham's Bosom from within the earth after His death on the cross, it might be said the OT saints were then born again, but the text doesn't say that. Jesus led the OT saints free before He had become the "first fruits" in resurrection, as I recall, because they were then redeemed from their sin that the animal sacrifices could not accomplish. So, the question could be asked, then, how could they have been born again, and yet still be held captive in Sheol if they were born again without the indwelling Spirit of the Lord?

Now, for some out there, this all may seem like strange ideas and teaching since it's not the kind of teaching most hear from pulpits. Some Bible cemetery schools may delve into this stuff, and some theological courses, but it was the Spirit of the Lord who first took me into the word and brought to my understanding what I had heard from no other man-made source.

Are there teachings out there that speak of the OT saints having been born again? Likely, but I would have to see the scriptural foundation for that. I've seen scores of theological tapestries woven together with verses that left too many holes in them to keep the wind and rain out from those inside.

So, no, I don't see that they in the OT times, before the cross, could have ever been born again. The transition point for their understanding for rebirth started with the preaching of Christ who first revealed that concept to Israel, and the fulfillment of that teaching was solidified at the moment He said, "It is finished."

Sorry that went so long. I try to keep things shorter, but my fingers start bouncing around this keyboard, and before I know it, the paragraphs are off the top of the screen...

MM
 
Sorry that went so long. I try to keep things shorter, but my fingers start bouncing around this keyboard, and before I know it, the paragraphs are off the top of the screen...
Long or short, it is a very important topic, and as you say it is highly neglected except around cemetaries.
Important because it reveals a difference in sanctification as now God works from the inside out.
 
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