Absolutely!
Bible Verse Sharing and Thoughts
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Absolutely!
I would like to share the passage,
"Search me, God, and know my heart;
Put me to the test and know my anxious thoughts;
And see if there is any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way." (Psalm 139:23 & 24, NASB)
"Search me, God, and know my heart;
Put me to the test and know my anxious thoughts;
And see if there is any hurtful way in me,
And lead me in the everlasting way." (Psalm 139:23 & 24, NASB)
Folks, what a contrast:
2 Chronicles 29:8 Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes.
1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
We are so blessed. I can't praise the Lord enough for the deliverance we have through Christ Jesus, our Lord and Master and King. I hope all of you rejoice with me in this. Oh, how the Lord is worthy of it all, and more...
MM
2 Chronicles 29:8 Wherefore the wrath of the LORD was upon Judah and Jerusalem, and he hath delivered them to trouble, to astonishment, and to hissing, as ye see with your eyes.
1 Thess. 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
We are so blessed. I can't praise the Lord enough for the deliverance we have through Christ Jesus, our Lord and Master and King. I hope all of you rejoice with me in this. Oh, how the Lord is worthy of it all, and more...
MM
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Hmm. What's not said here?
No mention of the Church. As a matter of fact, mention of the Church is utterly absent all through every chapter of Revelation that outlines the events of the Tribulation period (6-19 of Revelation). It's striking to me that the Church was important enough to enjoy mention all throughout the NT books prior to chapter 6 of Revelation, and suddenly....nothing. One would think that the Church suffering through an earth being rocked by such cataclysmic events would warrant some sort of mention, and yet the silence is almost deafening. If that time, along with the thousand years, were events in the past, why is the Church left out? That makes no sense to me. We are the body of the Most High on this earth.
How many here would be hearing their children playing in an adjacent room, and then sudden silence, and not go to investigate what was going on? I did, only to realize they had gone out through the open window. Boy howdy, I was hot since they were commanded to stay in their room for the afternoon. Their importance to me was cause enough to investigate what sounded like they were gone, and they were....gone.
MM
Hmm. What's not said here?
No mention of the Church. As a matter of fact, mention of the Church is utterly absent all through every chapter of Revelation that outlines the events of the Tribulation period (6-19 of Revelation). It's striking to me that the Church was important enough to enjoy mention all throughout the NT books prior to chapter 6 of Revelation, and suddenly....nothing. One would think that the Church suffering through an earth being rocked by such cataclysmic events would warrant some sort of mention, and yet the silence is almost deafening. If that time, along with the thousand years, were events in the past, why is the Church left out? That makes no sense to me. We are the body of the Most High on this earth.
How many here would be hearing their children playing in an adjacent room, and then sudden silence, and not go to investigate what was going on? I did, only to realize they had gone out through the open window. Boy howdy, I was hot since they were commanded to stay in their room for the afternoon. Their importance to me was cause enough to investigate what sounded like they were gone, and they were....gone.
MM
I would offer an opinion from another camp (Amil) .
One thing that it does not say which we are informed of in the opening of the book is that not only was the vision inspired but also signified. Revelation 1:1 Giving it the understanding as the mystery revealed, even before it is used in the parable found in chapter 20 six times .
I would think it could violate how we hear if one time literally and the other in parables. That would seem to bring confusion not restoration as the peace of God.
I do not think the church which is in tribulation even today (last days) from the beginning of the time of reformation (Hebrews 9)
I don’t see those persecuted for Christ disappearing for a literal thousand years?
The passage “a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more” is in respect to the results the past. . . the time of reformation, the beginning of the last days. Up until that time he deceived all the nations that they must get under the Law of Moses. The letter of the law “death”.
When the time of reformation, the lasts days came, the 70 foot high veil was torn from the top down to the bottom to represent the temporal flesh of Christ. (the shadow of circumssion )
There was no Jewish man sitting in the holy of holies .The faithless Jews that demanded they have a king because of their jealousy of the surrounding pagan nations came to end .Satan fell .the gospel was preached to all nations that we serve a unseen God who is not served with human hands .In that way we have the treasure of that power that works with us but not of us.
It would seem he will be loosed for a short period to build another abomination of desolation .(temple built with human hands) . .then comes the last day like a thief in the night.
Acts 2:15-17 King James Version (KJV) For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
The bible uses the words last day .Six times in John to emphasize .it is the end of the world under the Sun, the door to the resurrection is closed.
Thousands years would seemed to be defined by first three usages ( three denotes the end of a matter).
Psalm 90:4For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.
Ecclesiastes 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
If the thousand years in Revelation 20 are literal then every time the word thousand come up it must also be. Not a salvation issue. More of what I would say as you offered (1 John 2:27) a great warning helping us in our tribulation making the load lighter yoked with him . He will come as a thief in the night.
https://classic.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+6:39&version=KJV
Last day
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
I can try to take a stab at the things you think are contradictory, but I would have to understand your questions and thoughts. I don't know if it's some sort of mental block on my part of what, but I can't figure out what you're saying. (shrug) Maybe it's just me, but I need your help to better understand your point of view from what you identify as Amillennial.
MM
I would suggest, from my experience, that when
in doubt about the meaning of Scripture glean
from what it says as literal. If I am confused by
anything Scriptural then it is I who am confused.
Muddying the water with various assertions of
my interpretation helps no one, not even me.
The joy of God's Word comes in its reading and
God says He has revealed the mysteries so we don't
need to consider Scripture as anything but literal in
what it says. Even the few parables have a literal
interpretation. All things of the Scripture are in their
application. Wisdom always makes things less cloudy.
Respectfully,
Sam
in doubt about the meaning of Scripture glean
from what it says as literal. If I am confused by
anything Scriptural then it is I who am confused.
Muddying the water with various assertions of
my interpretation helps no one, not even me.
The joy of God's Word comes in its reading and
God says He has revealed the mysteries so we don't
need to consider Scripture as anything but literal in
what it says. Even the few parables have a literal
interpretation. All things of the Scripture are in their
application. Wisdom always makes things less cloudy.
Respectfully,
Sam
That is another word for "Preterist".
It means that ALL the prophetic events in the Bible were fullfilled in 70 AD when Romae destroyed Jerusalem.
Preterism also teaches that there is no future bodily resurrection, which places them outside the realm of historic Christian orthodoxy.
Preterism also teaches that we are beyond the Millennium and currently reside in the new heavens and new earth. I will leave you to consider how different that is from Scripture.
Further, Preterism teachings no longer hold to a personal Devil or angels, whether elect or evil, or a literal hell. More within that movement, Preterists tend tend to lean to idealism; but none support a literal interpretation of the Bible.
Huh? The lion can lay down with the lamb right now? Really? So Christ is on His Throne in Jerusalem?
I must have just been revived from being a Nitrogen immersed, human popsicle, because if I missed that era of such peace and tranquility, I really missed out on something. It must be something to be a Preterist and believe what is not evident around us right now.
However, I will have to wait and see what Garee says as to what his beliefs are. I don't know that these are what he believes right now.
MM
Thanks sorry. Try to focus on the foundation of the teaching. The first three times the word "thousand years" is used as signified a metaphor used in parables The same with the word thousand which represents concealed will no need to know bases .Called walk by faith mixes that seen the temporal with the unseen work of faith that works in us strengthening . No man knows the day, hour, year or when.
Look to the use of the word last day used 6 times in John. Usually first mention is used as some support in developing doctrine inspired from above. David in the Psalms said; if they destroy the foundations what could the bride of Christ as Christians do? I would be careful
It cannot be used as a parable in the first three examples if not the last 6 applications found in the signified understanding of Revelation 20.that would seem to cause confusion the flip of the coin .which teaching master, the wisdom of God not seen or that of man called mammon . . .seen ?
We are in the last days, they began when the veil was rent and Satan the spirit of error fell into a situation using a metaphor called a bottom less pit, held with lock and key (gospel) with metaphorical chains .litteral chain cannot bind a unseen spirit. .
Legion or Satan could no longer deceive all the nations a person must get under the law of Moses the letter that kills. Again when the veil was rent there was no earthly king siting in the Holy of Holies. The true King of kings and Lord of lords was exposed to the all the nations that heard the glorious gospel. The promise of Joel . A time of restoration .The reformation like never before and one that continues. No new signs to wonder about. He will come on the last day under the Sun
Literal chains cannot hold back a lying spirit like that of legion .And neither are people walking around literally be-headed. There are those who do look to necromancy disembodied spirits called workers with familiar spirits or patron saints. (An abomination) Beheaded saints are saints that have Christ as head .He is considered the husband of the church.
That whole chapter 20 is set forward as a parable or hidden manna .I see no need for the church to disappear. Or wait for the stones to falls in 70 AD.
Ok, let's take this a little at a time:
You said the first three times for the occurrence of "thousand years" is metaphorical, and therefore all others must be taken the same way (if I understood your statements). I have doubts that even the Bible Answer Man (who fully believes in Amillennialism) would say that, but I will explain why I disagree, and then you can offer a counter if you have one.
Psalms 90:4 For a thousand years in thy sight [are but] as yesterday when it is past, and [as] a watch in the night.
Eccl. 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice [told], yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
I don't see your point. Each one of those is referring to a literal thousand years in this realm of time. To say that they are purely metaphorical because of the comparison to the perspective of the One who is timeless, those are still a literal thousand years on this earth, in this realm of time. Heaven is not constrained by time. This universe is constrained by time.
Now another fallacy I can see in your analysis is assuming that how something is used on one or two other contexts governs how it must be understood in all others. I don't know any scholar who subscribes to such a blind indifference to context, grammar and application for meaning. Please understand that I have studied Hebrew and Greek for enough years to know that such an application is downright wrong. That would be like saying that the word "love" always means the same thing in every context, which is absolutely false.
I hope you don't mind me chopping up my response to your post into pieces like this, which makes for easier reading for shorter posts, and reflects my typing time limitations (I have an appointment this morning).
MM
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, [that] the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
Mic 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, [that] the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
2Ti 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
"Last days" is indeed lacking in specificity...meaning that there is no number of days given, nor is there a designated beginning and end given to us in direct reference. If you were living 3000 years ago, you too would say that the time of Christ's coming and the Tribulation period, etc., are all in the last days. It's simply a way of referring to period across the entire span of this earth's timeline.
Something I would caution, however, is the tendency to force upon scripture one's personal sense of time, space, character, the desire for greater specificity, etc. That tendency has been the motivation for the formation of many cults and many a strange doctrinal path that is peppered with falsehoods and errors.
Now, if you have further proof for your take on it, then I'm all ears. I will come back from my appointment sometime this morning and tackle the rest of your initial clarification post.
For future reference, it would be nice if you would provide the biblical references and exact quotes to support your position. That would be very appreciated...and even providing the texts to back your position rather than stating something as if it stands upon its own merits. Please show us why we should believe your position.
Additionally, please understand how important this topic is to so many people. We believe in the "blessed hope." The Second Coming is of great importance to the entirety of all scripture given that the scriptures speak of end time events more than just about any other topic.
MM
I second this statement. Saying that God said when He has not said is false prophesying.
Yep. Believe it or not, that is the bottom line on the Preterist position.
Not to repeat myself too much, but just so that we are all clear, no matter what is proposed by those who accept the Preterist position, the facts are this:
1.
Bible prophecies were fulfilled with Jerusalem’s fall in A.D. 70.
2,
There is, therefore, no future “second coming” of Christ.
3.
That then means that there will be no resurrection of the human body.
4.
Also, the final judgment and the end of the world have occurred already—with the destruction of Jerusalem.
5.
The Church has replaced Israel.
Well stated my brother!
MM.....you see my brother, for the Preterist position to be believable, ALL Scripture of "eschotology" must be SPITITUALIZED, as that then allows the people presenting their opinion to change anything to what they want the Scriptures to say.
Hi thanks for the reply
Each one of those is comparing literal thousand years in this realm of time under the Sun to another time period under the Sun. . . as if a thousand years had went past yesterday. Not a literal thousand years did go past. How would that affect the word yesterday?
I would offer It simply defines God is not limited to time restraints. It is why according to the opening statement of the book of Revelation we are informed that not only did he inspire it but also signified it .
Just like the whole period of time used as a parable for the time then present. There were kings in Israel (abomination of desolation).before the time of reformation came . . . promised in Joel when all the nation would hear the gospel .It was then Satan fell no longer able to deceive all the nations 3000 from all the nations heard the gospel and believed in God not seen .
The reformation under the power of all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) is still restoring the born again souls of men just as in Acts 2 (3000 new sons of God ).
Christians are the living temple of God .Remember we have the treasure of His power in us but would never assume it is of us of . . . little faith .
Is does appear that there will be a period of time when Satan is loosed when mankind would desire to build another even temple made with the corrupted hands, as a mind. This is even though Christ made the last pile of dead stones desolate in his statement in Mathew 23: 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Not will be desolate . . . is!
I would call His statement the mark of his word .What he says comes to pass.
Hebrews9: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heaven is not constrained by time. Only that under the Sun the temporal corruption time keepers. That clock is running down to the last day and not towards another literal thousand years.
Believers I would suggest continue to walk by faith not by the temporal things under the Sun (Time). Pray we learn how to mix faith. . . it as it is written promises to make our burden lighter when yoked with Christ he is our rest (Hebrew 4)
Hebrews 9:8 (NASB) says, "The Holy Spirit is signifying this, that the way
into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer
tabernacle is still standing,"
This verse, in context, is defining the dissolution of the old and
presentation of the new. There are distinctive parallels between
the setup of the Tabernacle and how that relates to our new
spiritual actions and presence of Spirit within us and this is an
extensive topic by itself.
This verse really has absolutely nothing to do with 1,000 years or time
in general. Simply, presenting out with the old and in with the new.
into the holy place has not yet been disclosed while the outer
tabernacle is still standing,"
This verse, in context, is defining the dissolution of the old and
presentation of the new. There are distinctive parallels between
the setup of the Tabernacle and how that relates to our new
spiritual actions and presence of Spirit within us and this is an
extensive topic by itself.
This verse really has absolutely nothing to do with 1,000 years or time
in general. Simply, presenting out with the old and in with the new.
So, generally speaking, when all those dead bodies burst forth from their graves at the point of Christ's death, and the dead walked among the living, those obviously were resurrected bodies, and yet the rest of us have no hope for such? Why would we be treated any differently than those who lived and died before the cross? That's one I don't understand, and therefore need some clarification upon if it can be offered.
MM
Indeed? I would hasten to say that Legion is a collective package of lower level, fallen angels as opposed to being Satan himself. Satan is a singular angel, where legion spoke to Jesus, in reference to themselves, in the plural. Can you show me in the Greek (Coine') how that is not the case? This is interesting to me.
As to eschatology, I don't see how the law of Moses ties into this. Perhaps you could explain this in more detail? I would appreciate it.
Beheadings have been going on for some time, and will become the execution style of choice in the near future.
Think about it: Rome is the one empire that was never destroyed like the other four. Most of what was once the Roman Empire is right now occupied by followers of Islam. That alone gives us ample reason to trust the literal as opposed to the ethereal. We can disagree on this, which is fine. It makes no difference. What we do know for sure is who wins in the end...and we also know Who is true, and who are the liars, and that's you and me and all others in this earth. God is True all the time...Amen!
MM