Church Worship Music
- Thread starter Juk
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We do alot of hymns, mixed with some more recent music. Nothing is fast though, we don't have a drummer at the moment so instruments are limited to a piano, acoustic and bass guitar.
I have nothing against modern christian music for the most part. Some songs I hear on the christian radio don't sit well with me, but the majority of them are pretty spot on.
I have nothing against modern christian music for the most part. Some songs I hear on the christian radio don't sit well with me, but the majority of them are pretty spot on.
Went to a church like the one above. I never went back. It wasn't worship, it was a concert. With fog machines and lighting effects.
Just not my kind of worship. Different strokes for different folks.
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God loves it when His people worship HIM with all they've got. The benefit is that His presence is in it. You don't know what you're missing.
Who says that someone isn't giving it their all without fog machines and light effects?
God inhabits His people's praises and there is nothing that says you need fog machines and light effects for Him to inhabit His people's praises.
Therefore, I am missing nothing. I don't need an entertainment style worship to worship God and praise Him. As I said, different strokes for different folks. There is no one way to worship God.
One question: "Is this (fill in the blank) Holy and pleasing to the LORD?"
It takes all the guess work out....
It takes all the guess work out....
I agree that there is a taste level when it comes to worship music, but truly, all worship music is loved by God, when it is given with the heart of worship. However, criticizing how people come together in worship is not the right thing to do. It has nothing to do with entertainment but all to do with giving over to the leading of the Holy Spirit and worshiping Him fully with all we have and with excellence.
In my youth, from birth til I married, I was raised in the "Church." I am one who falls under the category of "Preacher's Kid." In my particular background (which obviously has a great deal to do with what we "like" more), I was raised in a Baptist crowd, with Hymns from the Hymn book.
Grampy was a Preacher, as well as my Dad (which I spoke about in another Thread, so I won't rehearse that again here), and so I was exposed not only to the "music" of my Father's Churches, but also my Grand Father's. His wife, was a singer whose voice was unmistakable in a crowd. She sang beautifully, and loudly. Her "loudness" was not arrogant or prideful.....just deep-throated and trained. She directed a choir and was a "special music" person (along with my Dad) like all of us in the family was, for many years. I grew UP being "on display" (if you will) musically for many years.
When I was a teenager, in the late 60's and early 70's, "Praise Music" was just entering into the Youth Groups, being driven by what was going on on the West Coast with the likes of Larry Norman and Lonnie Frisbie and the Jesus movement. Their more contemporary music about the Lord and TO the Lord, was primarily sinking into the fabric of the Summer Camp programs for kids from eight to eighteen.
Fast forward a few years, and I was married, with two kids, and had been singing in church choirs and directing choirs, and had been asked to organize a "Praise Group" for our Evangelical Baptist Church. It was comprised of a guitar (me) and Base, and an Electric Piano. We had a list of songs that we practiced and lead the Church in singing, every Sunday. We used overhead projection for the lyrics, and the people were pretty good at learning the melodies quickly (fortunately).
It's been a lot of years since those early "Praise Music" forays, and I have not been a part of the Music Ministry in any Church in many years, (for health reasons and other reasons that have nothing to do with theology or any of that; I went more towards Teaching in my following of God's Leadership for my life). I still play music and teach it when needed, but it is not a "second job" (if you will) like it once was. That is not to say that I felt that it was ONLY a "second job," because I did it for the Lord, above all else; but it IS to say, that what we do in the Churches, can often consume so much of our time (along with any secular job we may have) that it takes on the characteristic of a "second job" with regard to the amount of time that is required to put into it, to do it right.
During my youth, I had been close with a guy named George, who was raised in Pentecostal circles. He had invited me to what was known of in those days as "Thursday Night Revival Services." I went a few times. At THAT service, there were drums, tambourines, guitars, shouting, dancing, (in the Spirit) and some real enthusiastic singing. It impressed me. I wondered why MY "Church" didn't have that kind of exuberant demonstration of worship. I was learning a lesson in those days, that was the beginning of understanding theological preference.
The sum of all these experiences with worship, has led me to some very specific conclusions:
A) We are all different in our roles in the Body.
B) When "worship" is done correctly, it honors God
and God alone.
C) Churches that build a program to entice the people
will fail. The message of the Cross is not entertainment.
D) Churches are not exclusively for the Redeemed. They
are to be a ministry to those who are sick and need Him.
It is not a social club for believers.
E) Musical ministry that titillates the emotions, walks a
dangerous and provocative line between Holiness and
eroticism.
F) The Teaching of the Word, and prayer, should be a higher
percentage of the time devoted to Worship, than the music.
G) An effectual "Church" is one in which the needs of the
Entire population are fed; not just the young.
I want to focus on "G" for the moment here, although I am happy to enter into a conversation about any of the points.
One of Grampy's focus points in his own Ministry, was the youth. He had developed a whole "Youth Program" that he used during his Itinerant Ministry years. Let's face it, if you want to grow your Church, there must be those trusted young people that you nurture and grow into trustworthy and Godly leaders of the future. There is nothing sadder than a Church where everyone is over fifty! There is no life-blood to carry that Church forward, and it has become simply a convalescent environment.
That is not to say that those who are over fifty (like me) are not to be ministered to. Of course they are! In context, it IS to say that a healthy Body of Christ is composed of people of all ages, all walks of life, all races.......blended together. A healthy plant has a root, a stem, leaves, and flowers, and ultimately a fruit of one kind or another that is the end result of its completeness.
When I enter a Church and participate in the "worship" that they have designed, I look for a few things:
A) Is the membership "worshiping" on auto pilot?
B) Does the process seem automated and predictable?
C) Is the direction of the worship "God praise" aimed
or "God gimme______________"
and here's the biggie:
D) When you meet and talk with the members after
the service is over; do you meet the same person
afterwards, that you met during the "worship?"
I'll never forget leaving one "Thursday Night Revival Service" at that Pentecostal (Assemblies of God) Church I told you about, and seeing the leadership out along the side of the Church building, smoking and joking about anything other than God.
You the reader of this, are smart enough to know where I'm going with that. Proper Godly leadership; Truth in advertising; Holiness; ...........
Never let the form of the Church ministry, interfere with the goal and role of a Godly Church. It is God's House, after all.........not ours.
-Soupy
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We have a hymnbook, and in the various meetings any brother can give out whatever hymn or song the Holy Spirit suggests. The whole company sings the hymn or song together. I don't agree with choirs or musical instruments, because these things weren't at the beginning and the New Testament scriptures never sanction them. Introducing that sort of thing just gives oppurtunity for the feeding of the flesh and distracting the singers from the words they're singing. Juk, what you highlight is a very important consideration: is the whole thing focused on us and our tastes and likings, or is it for God? I know that God doesn't care for musical instruments or the quality of the singing, He takes into account what's flowing from the hearts of the worshippers. If adding something to the service of God adds nothing to what flows from the hearts of the saints, then it can't do any good, and has potential to do harm.
We mustn't fall into the trap of using the Old Testament scriptures, such as the Psalms, to justify the use of musical instruments in our day for the glory of God. These instruments were only types, shadows of what was to come, like the rest of the Jewish system. We have the antitype now, and going back to the use of types really draws us down to an earthly system. God has ended that decisively, and we should respect that.
Interesting thought but I'm of a different type of view point altogether. I think that unless the congregation is a well rehearsed group of singers. You either need a strong voice(s) or a musical instrument to hold things together. Personally, I feel the church organ can be excellent in fulfilling this role.
I may feel less sure about other instruments like guitars in a church service but I feel sure that if I had the opportunity to work my own folky style of guitar and mandolin into some church band doing other things, I'd take it.
On the larger picture I suppose my own view is that as long as we are doing our best for Him, God isn't going to mind how we go about things - and I don't suppose any of us truly know what His tastes in music are or what heavenly music really sounds like.
From my own personal position though, I am affected to some degree by my own largely more traditional service leanings and to a greater degree to my own musical tastes. I doubt some things (including a fair of "Christian music") are ever going to work for me.
Can you provide scripture where it says that God has "decisively" ended musical instruments?
In Revelation 15:2, John says "They held harps given them by God". A harp is certainly an instrument. Ephesians 5:19 says to "Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord" (Note it doesn't ONLY say sing).
Anyway, please share where in the Bible God has decisively ended musical instruments?
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The answer to that is really written across the New Testament, ingrained in the character of Christianity. One scripture which immediately springs to mind is John 4:23-24: "But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers. God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth." Here, the Lord is bringing out the essential contrast between the earthly system which was going to be set aside, and the heavenly system which He was bringing in. The new system wasn't going to one of worship "in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem" (John 4:21). Everything that was attached to the earthly system - the physical tabernacle, the instruments of the service, the altar, the sacrifices, the incense, the musical instruments - was to be set aside, because the things they represented in type were come to realisation in actuality at last.
Hebrews sets out this truth as well, that everything the Jews knew of physical forms has been superseded. That system of things has been totally set aside for something better. If we turn back to physical tabernacle, the instruments of the service, the altar, the sacrifices, the incense, the musical instruments, then that's really nothing short of Judiazing.
As to the references to musical instruments in Revelation, it can safely be said that the Revelation is largely symbolic and figurative. For example, "the dragon" and "the beast" won't physically be a dragon and a beast, they'll be men and systems. Even if the harp is going to be an actuality, it's spoken of as being in a future time, not our day.
Ephesians 5:19 also brings out this truth, "Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord" - from your heart, not with your hands. The worship is entirely spiritual, there's no exercise of human talent or labour. We see this in 1 Chronicles 23:5, where we have four thousand musicians praising God with instruments David had made. Four is the number of human dependence, a foreshadowing of the time when nothing of human skill could be employed in the service of God, and of course David can be seen here as a type of Christ, having fashioned each instrument - each saint - personally for the praise of the Father.
The New Testament is completely without any positive references to the use of musical instruments, except the symbolic ones in Revelation. Music is purely in the form of singing, as we see in the lovely incidence recorded in Matthew 26:30 and Mark 14:26. Again, these scriptures bring out the truth of the purely spiritual character of Christian worship: "And having sung a hymn, they went out to the mount of Olives." (Matthew 26:30). The singing of the hymn leads to elevation of the soul, lifting up out of the day-to-day scenes of the wilderness pathway.
Apart from the whole tenor of the New Testament (and examining the text in the original language confirms that music was limited purely to singing unaccompanied), there's the historical proofs. There is no historical record of musical instruments being used in worship until many centuries into the Christian era, when the church organ was introduced through a Romanist influence. The organ was then expelled by the Reformers as an ungodly innovation.
All that, however, won't have much sway with many Christians, because there is a tendency in Christendom to take the view that unless the scripture explicitly forbids something, then it's fine to introduce it into the service of God. Safety lies in looking for a scriptural basis for everything that is done and asking if it really will contribute anything to a spiritual and heavenly system of things.
I'm very much afraid we're all too inclined to let our own natural tastes dictate how we go on with the service of God, and that leads to division - when my tastes differ from yours, then we aren't going to get along together in fellowship. Paul was compelled to take up that state of things with the Corinthians: "I have given you milk to drink, not meat, for ye have not yet been able, nor indeed are ye yet able; for ye are yet carnal. For whereas there are among you emulation and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk according to man?" (1 Corinthians 3:3). The mind of the flesh was being made way for in Corinth, and the result was emulation and strife. This sort of thing can only do harm.
Now, I wouldn't want anyone to think that I'm condemning musical instruments in themselves, or criticising the musical preferences of any believer or group of believers. I really enjoy singing hymns and songs in the homes of the brethren, as we often do, accompanied by an amazing array of musical instruments in some cases. Music is enjoyable, and mostly an innocent pleasure. But we have to be sensitive about what we bring into the house of God, when we assemble.
It's often argued that God gave us talents that we should use in His service. This is really unscriptural, and the truth is that God has given spiritual gifts for use in His service, and human talents are really excluded from that.
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I think i need to clarify my post some.
I have no issues with a worship band, and have been in a couple churches that sang contemporary Christian music which I listen to each day. When it crosses into entertainment for me is the use of fog machines and lighting effects.
One of the issues I'm currently having with trying to find a fellowship is volume. I was raised on hymns (which are awesome when they're done right) and enjoy contemporary styles of music, but most churches today seem to believe that electronically enhanced volume is the most important thing. I can't go to an assembly and leave without a headache (that's if I can even stay in the building).
I also refuse to leave my kids with a youth group that keeps the volume at insane levels.
By insane, I mean that if they actually tested it, the levels would be obviously damaging.
...and if your band wears ear plugs, then you know full well that the volume is too much!
That is not worship. It actually inhibits worship, because it makes it hard to think or focus. It also tends toward more of the group not participating.
If you have ever heard a congregation singing praise where the full group is singing, no amplification is required.
The voices alone will roar through you like a tidal wave, and that is truly awesome.
There is also a tendency to forget that worship does not require music or song. Personally, I find myself glorifying Jesus more when I talk with others about Him, than when I sing.
I grew up around guns, and I've worked (military, steel, and carpentry) with guns and heavy equipment most of my adult life. There is a reason we wear ear plugs.
I also refuse to leave my kids with a youth group that keeps the volume at insane levels.
By insane, I mean that if they actually tested it, the levels would be obviously damaging.
...and if your band wears ear plugs, then you know full well that the volume is too much!
That is not worship. It actually inhibits worship, because it makes it hard to think or focus. It also tends toward more of the group not participating.
If you have ever heard a congregation singing praise where the full group is singing, no amplification is required.
The voices alone will roar through you like a tidal wave, and that is truly awesome.
There is also a tendency to forget that worship does not require music or song. Personally, I find myself glorifying Jesus more when I talk with others about Him, than when I sing.
I grew up around guns, and I've worked (military, steel, and carpentry) with guns and heavy equipment most of my adult life. There is a reason we wear ear plugs.
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Guest
That's pretty much a rave by the look of it...LOL.
I perform modern church teachings but more traditional music.
It's all about what works for the parishioners though...people like different things.
I have nothing against any "special effect" especially when the one operating these things is Spirit-filled and doing it unto the Lord...much the same way as the one who cleans the church toilets is also putting his hand to work for God with all His might.
Ecclesiastes 9:10a
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
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Don't you think it's dangerous though, to mix in things that appeal to the flesh? It's apt to allow the same line of thought that caused the disciples to admire stones and buildings (Mark 13:1) and the Lord has to answer that: "Seest thou these great buildings? not a stone shall be left upon a stone, which shall not be thrown down." (Mark 13:2). The Temple is really a substantial figure of the old system, one of physical things, imposing things which appeal to the eye. Early believers worshipped in the Temple (see Acts 24:11 with reference to Paul), because God in His grace allowed the two things to go on together for a time, but there came a point when the Jewish system was utterly done with, "and immediately the doors [of the Temple] were shut." (Acts 21:30). You might say, that was the definitive rejection by the religious system of the day of the new heavenly order, and the point where the two were completely and finally separated. Believers didn't go up to the Temple to worship after that.
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When the Holy Spirit is running things, and causing us to bring our all to worship the Lord Jesus Christ, there is no danger, and nothing to fear.