Church Worship Music

[Steve Campbell]

God has no deficiency, but He enjoys us blessing Him, just as any father enjoys His children blessing him.

Respectfully I ask.............support that Biblically please. I would like to see where Scripture states unequivically that "God needs us."

I don't deny of course that we all have a purpose, (to love and worship and glorify Him), but that He "needs" us is not a strong place to stand, "Theologically" speaking.

-Soupy

 

[Grant Melville]

God's heart is blessed when we come to Him with music. He is the God of music and instruments played to bring honour and glory to Him is just as important as dancing before Him, and singing, and shouting, and performing art before Him---with excellence---it is all to His glory! After all it is He who gifts us with these abilities, and when we do anything in complete adoration to glorify Him, He is indeed glorifies and blessed---and so are we both blessed and edified.

I'm afraid there isn't a scriptural basis for saying that (with the exception of singing), unless you go back to the Jewish system. Can we, as Christians, borrow from Judaism in order to please God? No, because He has set the whole order of things aside.

We have to be careful not to confuse spiritual gifts and natural talents - the former can be used to glorify God, the latter only glorify man. The latter are never spoken of in the New Testament in connection with worship. Dancing, playing instruments, painting, sculpting... none of these things are ever mentioned in connection with Christian worship. If we try to bring in these things, not only are we not glorifying God and potentially glorifying ourselves, we're creating divisions among the brethren. Not every brother and sister has natural talents, but every is given the spiritual capability to worship. Using human talents will be apt to create jealousies, emulations, and feelings of superiority and inferiority. Is that something we want to bring into the Christian circle?

 

[boltardy]

I thought that satan was the one who specialized in music.

I think the usual reference is something like "The devil has all the best tunes".

I'm more of a tunes are only sets of frequencies and beats which are not inherently good or bad and God gave us the ability to sing, play and enjoy AND to choose what we do with it school of thought. (That doesn't mean I'll feel everything right for a certain setting or enjoy every style of music though).

 

[Grant Melville]

I think the usual reference is something like "The devil has all the best tunes".

I think it's important to take into account where instrumental music originates, then we get the divine view of it. Jubal is "the father of those who handle the harp and pipe" (Genesis 4:21). Jubal was of the line of Cain, Cain who had fled from the presence of God. In that portion of scripture in Genesis 4, we see the birth of 'civilisation': first, a city, then agriculture, entertainment, and industry. Contrast that with the line of Seth, who called his son Enosh (which means 'man, as weak and mortal'). Seth had a proper understanding of the fallen nature of man, conscience as to sin. The same couldn't be said for Cain, who tried to present an offering to God of the fruit of the cursed ground. Consequently, in Genesis 5, when the book of Adam's generations is set out for us, Cain isn't mentioned.

What we can draw from all that is that the use of musical instruments is most definitely an earthly thing. God took up earthly things in the building of an earthly tabernacle, He allowed the use of them as types. Gold is often mentioned in scripture in the most positive way, often as representing the worth of Christ - yet in 1 Timothy 2:9, sisters are to adorn themselves with modesty and discretion rather than plaited hair, gold and pearls. Modesty and discretion are suitable to a heavenly system - things of earthly value don't have a place in it. We have to get a proper valuation of things according to the divine viewpoint. Then we see what's suitable to the house of God, what He truly values. We can offer God nothing that's attached to this world which is passing to destruction, as Cain tried to do. We have to offer Abel's sacrifice, the firstlings of the flock and their fat - typically, Christ. Nothing else will do, and we can add nothing to Christ as an offering, He is perfect and complete in Himself. When we study Christ as He is seen in the various offerings of the Old Testament, we get a fuller and greater appreciation of what God takes pleasure in.

 

[Euphemia]

In Christ we have great significance, and we are important to God for the sake of the Kingdom.

What about Joseph, Gideon and Samson?
Deborah, Ruth and Esther? -
Yes, even Rehab, the harlot?
These were men and women,
who through Faith conquered kingdoms
and did what is right.
They could keep a lion's mouth shut;
put out blazing fires and
emerge unscathed from battle.
They were weak people,
Who were given strength to be brave -
Thereby giving honour and glory
To their Creator!

Shall we, talk about Samuel -
David, Saul or Solomon?
Shall we stress God's Great Need
for Prophets to speak through? -
To correct and rebuke?
or praise and inspire a people,
without whom He'd be unknown
to earthlings?

Yet, whether great or small -
An Elijah or a Jonah -
All had mistakes -
Too many to number.
If not disheartened like Elijah;
then stubborn like Jonah -
Refusing to bring Good Tidings to pagans!

Even when He would save us
from eternal destruction and death;
God needed a Body in which
He could dwell here upon earth.
A Man, born according to ancient Divine Promises,
descendant from Adam -
The Lamb without spot or blemish,
to be slain by His Own Creation!

No sooner was He risen from the Grave,
having broken Death's hold -
the First-born of God's New
Spiritual Creation -
when He passed on His duty
to those who'd profess Him:
"I need you .......
To tell men about Me!"

"Each Truth is a Jewel -
I'm revealing it to you -
Seek a heart-home for each.
And as you give, you'll receive.
Some spirit-starved friend
will be glad to discover it.
Use all I have given;
drop one here and two there.
Into each life and heart
I ache to find a way -
A purpose for which I do need you.
As a Light, you should shine
and portray My Great Love,
till joyfully, they shout:
'Come into my heart, Lord YAHU'SHUAH.'"

How could ever a man despise
this great Plan
whereby God uses those
who have hearkened.
Their plea He will answer:
"Lord, teach me to follow Thy footsteps
To light, out of darkness. "
And to those who still doubt
whether someone as Great as God,
may proclaim :
"Yes, I need you?"
To you, my dear friend,
won't you sit down and think:
"Love cannot be greater than giving
your life for a friend?"
Standing there, cleansed and redeemed,
having newly been purchased -
won't you yield to the Heavenly Invitation?
Won't you NOW - open your heart;
Give of your time, all your love? -
Won't you yield to His Cry:

"I DO NEED YOU!"

http://www.revelations.org.za/Need.htm

 

[boltardy]

Using human talents will be apt to create jealousies, emulations, and feelings of superiority and inferiority.

The same can be said of singing in an informal (ie. not a choir) group. People can easily be aware that they have a stronger voice, that someone else can not keep time or tune, etc.

Not that I've not been guilty of doing otherwise with or without instruments, I think we as individuals can have to learn to just sing or play for the purpose of the occasion and forget our egos. I'd say this can even go for secular music (believe me, a session where everyone is trying to outdo everyone else is no fun) but certainly should be something we as individuals should guard against with worship.

 

[Euphemia]

I'm afraid there isn't a scriptural basis for saying that (with the exception of singing), unless you go back to the Jewish system. Can we, as Christians, borrow from Judaism in order to please God? No, because He has set the whole order of things aside.

Sorry, but it is all scriptural.

We have to be careful not to confuse spiritual gifts and natural talents - the former can be used to glorify God, the latter only glorify man.

This is not the truth. A person can be spiritually gifted, and also naturally talented and use that gift for the Lord. We are to do all things as unto the Lord!

The latter are never spoken of in the New Testament in connection with worship. Dancing, playing instruments, painting, sculpting... none of these things are ever mentioned in connection with Christian worship.

The Lord uses our natural and acquired skills in any way He desires that will bring glory to Him. These are all part of our "reasonable service".

Romans 12:1
I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

If we try to bring in these things, not only are we not glorifying God and potentially glorifying ourselves, we're creating divisions among the brethren. Not every brother and sister has natural talents, but every is given the spiritual capability to worship. Using human talents will be apt to create jealousies, emulations, and feelings of superiority and inferiority. Is that something we want to bring into the Christian circle?

You are not glorifying God when you withhold anything of yourself from Him. Divisions come when one divides himself up between spiritual and natural, and thereby withhold parts of oneself from Him. God wants all of us. His Spirit, His joy, His strength, His exuberance and His truth comes through all we offer to Him.

If there is a propensity for comparison, jealousy, and oneupmanship in a person, believe me, in the right setting where Holy Spirit is encouraged, those carnal behaviours will be taken care of forthwith.

 

[Grant Melville]

The same can be said of singing in an informal (ie. not a choir) group. People can easily be aware that they have a stronger voice, that someone else can not keep time or tune, etc.

Not that I've not been guilty of doing otherwise with or without instruments, I think we as individuals can have to learn to just sing or play for the purpose of the occasion and forget our egos. I'd say this can even go for secular music (believe me, a session where everyone is trying to outdo everyone else is no fun) but certainly should be something we as individuals should guard against with worship.

I agree. Even without instruments, there's still that human tendency - which I know in myself - to get caught up with the tune, or how the person next to me is singing, or how I'm singing. It requires self-judgement. But adding instruments only increases the problem, and takes us off the ground of scripture. We put the weak brother in danger for the sake of adding something which is not sanctioned by scripture. Doesn't Paul say "For the sake of meat do not destroy the work of God." (Romans 14:20)? Isn't instrumental music "meat" in this sense?

 

[Grant Melville]

Sorry, but it is all scriptural.

I don't think you'll find it anywhere in New Testament scripture that we can glorify God by playing musical instruments, dancing or any of the performing arts... that simply isn't a scriptural statement at all. Only spiritual gifts are mentioned - as I'm sure you know, dear sister, because you're always quick to maintain - quite rightly - the vital place of spiritual gifts.

This is not the truth. A person can be spiritually gifted, and also naturally talented and use that gift for the Lord. We are to do all things as unto the Lord!

I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I have to press the point: where do the scriptures sanction the use of natural abilities, the natural things which are so highly prized in the world? We get quite the opposite teaching in Corinthians: "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world, that he may put to shame the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world, that he may put to shame the strong things; and the ignoble things of the world, and the despised, has God chosen, and things that are not, that he may annul the things that are; so that no flesh should boast before God." (1 Corinthians 1:29). So that no flesh should boast before God! That definitively shuts out the natural from use in the service of God. We get that same teaching time and time again in the Old Testament. Exodus 20:25-26 is one example: "And if thou make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone; for if thou lift up thy sharp tool upon it, thou hast profaned it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon." If we're to make a suitable offering to God, there can be nothing of our own industry in it. Then, it wouldn't solely be of Christ. If we try to present anything of ourselves, we just display our inadequacy after the flesh. We can't present Adam to God, only Christ will do.

The Lord uses our natural and acquired skills in any way He desires that will bring glory to Him. These are all part of our "reasonable service".

Presenting our bodies a living sacrifice means that we no longer own ourselves, we have to give up self. The apostle goes on, "And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2). Be not conformed to this world. Are there many so-called 'churches' out there which aren't outwardly conformed to a worldly pattern - full of entertainment, theatrics, comedy... We're to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, and the end of that is that we prove the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. We don't prove that by going off the ground of scripture and adding whatever we choose to the service of God: that only proves that we're still carnally-minded.

You are not glorifying God when you withhold anything of yourself from Him. Divisions come when one divides himself up between spiritual and natural, and thereby withhold parts of oneself from Him. God wants all of us. His Spirit, His joy, His strength, His exuberance and His truth comes through all we offer to Him.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but that simply isn't scriptural at all... did Paul value self? "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death?" (Romans 7:24). What Paul was had to go - every refinement, all of his Pharisaical education, he was led to count it as filth. We're not all Pharisees, but even Job, a righteous man, had to go through that education which led him to realise that he was too much occupied with self - it was self-righteousness.

If there is a propensity for comparison, jealousy, and oneupmanship in a person, believe me, in the right setting where Holy Spirit is encouraged, those carnal behaviours will be taken care of forthwith.

I absolutely agree. But we can't depend on the encouragement of the Holy Spirit on one hand, while feeding the flesh on the other.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that what's natural is wrong. What's natural is fine in it's place: the natural love between husband and wife, parent and child, natural amiability between friends. What's natural is of God, His ordering for creation. But the flesh is something that Satan can work with, and has to be excluded if we're to serve God rightly.

 

[Klub]

In Christ we have great significance, and we are important to God for the sake of the Kingdom.

What about Joseph, Gideon and Samson?
Deborah, Ruth and Esther? -
Yes, even Rehab, the harlot?
These were men and women,
who through Faith conquered kingdoms
and did what is right.
They could keep a lion's mouth shut;
put out blazing fires and
emerge unscathed from battle.
They were weak people,
Who were given strength to be brave -
Thereby giving honour and glory
To their Creator!

Shall we, talk about Samuel -
David, Saul or Solomon?
Shall we stress God's Great Need
for Prophets to speak through? -
To correct and rebuke?
or praise and inspire a people,
without whom He'd be unknown
to earthlings?

Yet, whether great or small -
An Elijah or a Jonah -
All had mistakes -
Too many to number.
If not disheartened like Elijah;
then stubborn like Jonah -
Refusing to bring Good Tidings to pagans!

Even when He would save us
from eternal destruction and death;
God needed a Body in which
He could dwell here upon earth.
A Man, born according to ancient Divine Promises,
descendant from Adam -
The Lamb without spot or blemish,
to be slain by His Own Creation!

No sooner was He risen from the Grave,
having broken Death's hold -
the First-born of God's New
Spiritual Creation -
when He passed on His duty
to those who'd profess Him:
"I need you .......
To tell men about Me!"

"Each Truth is a Jewel -
I'm revealing it to you -
Seek a heart-home for each.
And as you give, you'll receive.
Some spirit-starved friend
will be glad to discover it.
Use all I have given;
drop one here and two there.
Into each life and heart
I ache to find a way -
A purpose for which I do need you.
As a Light, you should shine
and portray My Great Love,
till joyfully, they shout:
'Come into my heart, Lord YAHU'SHUAH.'"

How could ever a man despise
this great Plan
whereby God uses those
who have hearkened.
Their plea He will answer:
"Lord, teach me to follow Thy footsteps
To light, out of darkness. "
And to those who still doubt
whether someone as Great as God,
may proclaim :
"Yes, I need you?"
To you, my dear friend,
won't you sit down and think:
"Love cannot be greater than giving
your life for a friend?"
Standing there, cleansed and redeemed,
having newly been purchased -
won't you yield to the Heavenly Invitation?
Won't you NOW - open your heart;
Give of your time, all your love? -
Won't you yield to His Cry:

"I DO NEED YOU!"

http://www.revelations.org.za/Need.htm

God didn't need any of them. To be all powerful means you need nothing. He did create them, and they did glorify Him, but God never needed them. To say God needs anything is completely undermining the power of God.

I agree, in Christ, we have significance, but we aren't giving anything that God needs. God is God, regardless of if anybody worships him or not.

 

[Euphemia]

I don't think you'll find it anywhere in New Testament scripture that we can glorify God by playing musical instruments, dancing or any of the performing arts... that simply isn't a scriptural statement at all. Only spiritual gifts are mentioned - as I'm sure you know, dear sister, because you're always quick to maintain - quite rightly - the vital place of spiritual gifts.

The New Testament Church has always celebrated God with music and as they did in the Old Testament, musical instruments were commonly used. God Himself established musicians and singers for worship---and they worked full time in ministry, too, round the clock! That hasn't changed. In fact, David teaches even us in this age that worshiping with song and dance and even jumping and spinning is important to God---because GOD DOES IT! There is more than one word for "joy" and one of them means to "spin and reel", something that God does over us. I should think that if the Father enjoys us and our worship so much that he dances and spins over us, we can do that for Him.

]quote]I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I have to press the point: where do the scriptures sanction the use of natural abilities, the natural things which are so highly prized in the world? We get quite the opposite teaching in Corinthians: "But God has chosen the foolish things of the world, that he may put to shame the wise; and God has chosen the weak things of the world, that he may put to shame the strong things; and the ignoble things of the world, and the despised, has God chosen, and things that are not, that he may annul the things that are; so that no flesh should boast before God." (1 Corinthians 1:29). So that no flesh should boast before God! That definitively shuts out the natural from use in the service of God. We get that same teaching time and time again in the Old Testament. Exodus 20:25-26 is one example: "And if thou make me an altar of stone, thou shalt not build it of hewn stone; for if thou lift up thy sharp tool upon it, thou hast profaned it. Neither shalt thou go up by steps unto mine altar, that thy nakedness be not discovered thereon." If we're to make a suitable offering to God, there can be nothing of our own industry in it. Then, it wouldn't solely be of Christ. If we try to present anything of ourselves, we just display our inadequacy after the flesh. We can't present Adam to God, only Christ will do.[/quote]

I find it quite puzzling that you would draw the line to serving the King at the use of natural talents. God used skilled craftsmen to create the implements and the elaborate ornamentation for His sanctuary. These men had natural gifts that were given to them for a spiritual purpose. This continues today.

I am an artist by nature, and blessed with a natural talent, but I use it for God's glory. His anointing is all over it. I consider it a spiritual gift as well.

Presenting our bodies a living sacrifice means that we no longer own ourselves, we have to give up self. The apostle goes on, "And be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." (Romans 12:2). Be not conformed to this world. Are there many so-called 'churches' out there which aren't outwardly conformed to a worldly pattern - full of entertainment, theatrics, comedy... We're to present our bodies as a living sacrifice, and the end of that is that we prove the good and acceptable and perfect will of God. We don't prove that by going off the ground of scripture and adding whatever we choose to the service of God: that only proves that we're still carnally-minded.

There are some wonderful, Holy Spirit driven churches that use all the gifts and abilities of the people to bring glory to God, who rightly deserves it all.We lay ourselves and our abilities at His feet and He blesses us with greater and greater ability to do things with excellence---far better than the world can ever do. He says that whatever we find at our hand to do, to do it with all our might. I'm there! Are you?

I'm sorry to have to say this, but that simply isn't scriptural at all... did Paul value self? "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death?" (Romans 7:24). What Paul was had to go - every refinement, all of his Pharisaical education, he was led to count it as filth. We're not all Pharisees, but even Job, a righteous man, had to go through that education which led him to realise that he was too much occupied with self - it was self-righteousness.

Don't be sorry. You definitely didn't have to say that, though. Proper and acceptable worship isn't tempered by our lack. It is an all out abandonment to God's greatness and goodness.

I absolutely agree. But we can't depend on the encouragement of the Holy Spirit on one hand, while feeding the flesh on the other.

God sees our hearts. When we are worshiping Him fully, with all we've got, and with instruments and voice, and the dance, and with art, which is what He desires, the flesh isn't a concern.

Just to clarify, I wouldn't want anyone to get the impression that what's natural is wrong. What's natural is fine in it's place: the natural love between husband and wife, parent and child, natural amiability between friends. What's natural is of God, His ordering for creation. But the flesh is something that Satan can work with, and has to be excluded if we're to serve God rightly.

I think you must come from the church of Christ indoctrination, and their focus on the flesh in worship. God wants us to worship Him in all we do, and so I believe that as we obey Him in that, the notions and fears about flesh interfering in worship is abated, with new spiritual boldness taking its place. God's heart is blessed by that!

 

[Euphemia]

God didn't need any of them. To be all powerful means you need nothing. He did create them, and they did glorify Him, but God never needed them. To say God needs anything is completely undermining the power of God.

I agree, in Christ, we have significance, but we aren't giving anything that God needs. God is God, regardless of if anybody worships him or not.

To me, that is a false religious idea. God does need His family to obey Him and to go out and make disciples so that the world will know Him and His great love for them.

 

[Klub]

To me, that is a false religious idea. God does need His family to obey Him and to go out and make disciples so that the world will know Him and His great love for them.

so in theory, what would happen if nobody gave glory to God?

 

[Euphemia]

so in theory, what would happen if nobody gave glory to God?

That is something that could never happen. God has created us to worship Him. Many don't discover that truth, but very many do. He says that if we do not worship Him then even the rocks would cry out. All creation sings to Him.

Luke 19:40
But Jesus answered, “If they keep quiet, these stones will start shouting.”


Those who refuse to worship and give God glory cause Him great sorrow and provocation.

Psalm 78:40-41
Oh, how often they rebelled against him in the wilderness
and grieved his heart in that dry wasteland.
41 Again and again they tested God’s patience
and provoked the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Klub]

That is something that could never happen. God has created us to worship Him. Many don't discover that truth, but very many do. He says that if we do not worship Him then even the rocks would cry out. All creation sings to Him.

Luke 19:40
But Jesus answered, “If they keep quiet, these stones will start shouting.”


Those who refuse to worship and give God glory cause Him great sorrow and provocation.

Psalm 78:40-41
Oh, how often they rebelled against him in the wilderness
and grieved his heart in that dry wasteland.
41 Again and again they tested God’s patience
and provoked the Holy One of Israel.

I was hoping you'd bring that verse, it was the same one I'd go to.

This just proves that God does not need anything. His desire is for us, but the creator never needs his creation. You even said it yourself, that God is lacking nothing, so therefore he needs nothing.

 

[Euphemia]

If anyone says to you, “Why are you doing this?” say, “The Lord has need of it.” —Mark 11:3

For His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, Jesus chose a donkey to serve as His royal transportation. His disciples were instructed to say, “The Lord has need of it” (Mark 11:3). Isn’t it astounding that the Son of God should use such lowly means to accomplish His purposes? Alexander MacLaren commented on this: “Christ comes to us in like fashion, and brushes aside all our convenient excuses. He says, ‘I want you, and that is enough.’ ”

Think of it! The Creator of the universe needs us and desires to fit us into His eternal design! Though all-powerful and not dependent on any creature, He has chosen to carry out His plans through lowly human instruments. If this were not so, He would have taken us to heaven as soon as He saved us by His grace.

Someone once asked Francis of Assisi how he was able to accomplish so much. He replied, “This may be why: The Lord looked down from heaven and said, ‘Where can I find the weakest, littlest man on earth?’ Then He saw me and said, ‘I’ve found him. I will work through him, and he won’t be proud of it. He’ll see that I am only using him because of his insignificance.’ ”

You may be small in your own eyes, but God has need of you!

Yours is a mission you alone can fill,
Whether it be to build or teach or till;
Your goal may still be hidden from your view,
But somewhere God has urgent need of you. —Thayer

God is looking for ordinary people for extraordinary work.

http://odb.org/2010/03/28/god-needs-you/

Just as Jesus had need of the donkey, He has need of us.

 

[filarks]

I've had to turn off the radio and just worship Him. I've remembered worship music from the late 70s when I got saved.
For me, worship is all about God and not us. Speaking the Word can be worship too. Song of Solomon says Your love is better than wine.
Psalms is chok full of things to worship God with. Such as telling Him he is your strength, He's my strong tower and I run to Him and am safe. My shield, ever present help in the time of trouble.
My point is that worship comes from the heart. When you're reading the Word and a verse comes alive for you, use that verse in your worship time.

 

[Juk]

Just my thoughts on the issue of using natural talents for the glory of God. Of course you can and should use natural talents for the glory of God. We are to do everything for the glory of God. But those talents should not come into the church. For example, if someone has the talent of comedy, he should not be doing stand-up in the church. If someone has a talent for dancing, they should not be doing it in the church. We all know what is going on. The congregation is just being entertained. Same thing with singing. But they can do those for the glory of God, perhaps outside of the church. I'm not too knowledgeable on this topic, though. Seems like a gray area.

 

[Juk]

About God needing us:

Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Romans 11:35

Jesus gave up some of His God-powers when He became human. He chose to do that. On earth, Jesus was part man.

 

[Euphemia]

Just my thoughts on the issue of using natural talents for the glory of God. Of course you can and should use natural talents for the glory of God. We are to do everything for the glory of God. But those talents should not come into the church. For example, if someone has the talent of comedy, he should not be doing stand-up in the church. If someone has a talent for dancing, they should not be doing it in the church. We all know what is going on. The congregation is just being entertained. Same thing with singing. But they can do those for the glory of God, perhaps outside of the church. I'm not too knowledgeable on this topic, though. Seems like a gray area.

Juk, you are wrong, and coming from a fleshly and religious way of thinking. You are advocating that people judge from the outward appearance of things, when God doesn't. Be careful that your youth and immaturity do not cause people to stumble.

I agree with your self-assessment: you are NOT knowledgeable. It's best to listen and not speak.