Can the Holy Spirit be free when there are things of the flesh allowed in? Surely not. We surely all know from our own personal experience that "the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these things are opposed one to the other..." (Galatians 5:17). The same is as true of the company of believers when assembled as it is individually. We can't expect the Spirit to operate freely where the flesh is being allowed scope as well.
Church Worship Music
- Thread starter Juk
- Start date
People are free when Holy Spirit is allowed to work. We need not fear or fret.
In our Church we mostly sing hymns and sometimes some newer songs also. But predominantly hymns.. I simply love them.. We just have one piano and nothing else to it..
And I will add my 2 cents
Worship should always be God centered. Music is seductive. That is the truth. No one can reject that. That is why it is so very important when music is mixed with worship. It very easy to be seduced by the means and lose focus on what the means points to. A believer should exercise caution on this. Is he getting satisfied by the music or Jesus to whom it points to? If the music is hindrance in focussing on Jesus, then it is no longer worship
I appreciate your point of view, and tend to agree. That said, I don't think the discussion is really about the form of the music, in the sense of the instruments used. It would seem to be more about the intent of the music, to my mind.
What can start out as the proper "intent," being worship to God, can in some situations, because of the "nature" of the music, (what/who are you trying to please) create an atmosphere that is self-serving, and gratifies something more carnal and introspective, than to place the focus on how God is pleased.
I should think that it be more proper to find myself deeply gratified that God was honored by the intent of my heart, and not that "I" was satisfied, satiated or moved. (Of course that is not to say that somehow "worship" should be like eating Parsnip, "you will eat your Parsnip and LIKE it!!")
In the end, are we "people" pleasers, or "God" pleasers?" That's the question that should be considered by all who are serving up the Word thru music, message, and life-example.
-Soupy
-Soupy
I completely agree that we shouldn't have to worry. Coming into the presence of God should be an experience for us which is characterised by liberty and restfulness. That said, I believe that we can only have true liberty when the Holy Spirit is free to operate, and I think we have to acknowledge that we can put hindrances in the way of that. It'd be complacency if we denied that we can put the Holy Spirit out of His place, because He won't force Himself on us. He can be grieved. Formalism hinders the Holy Spirit, so does ritualism. If we're restricted by forms, an order of service, pre-selected hymns and songs, pre-written sermons and preachings... then the Holy Spirit is not being given the place which is rightly His as a divine Person. I'm concerned that there's far too much complacency in Christendom today about how we go about the service of God. We seem to assume that, because He is gracious, He'll simply 'fit in' with whatever we feel like doing. Increasingly, I've been thinking about the divine commandment in Exodus: "According to all that I shall shew thee, the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the utensils thereof, even so shall ye make it." (Exodus 25:9). I believe there is a "pattern", there is a Way. Would I claim for myself or my immediate circle of brethren that we know exactly that Way? Not at all. What I will say is that although I think no one group of Christians can claim that they're walking completely perfectly according to the divine mind, it's very important to bear in mind that there is a "pattern" and we're responsible to look for that pattern. The more that we follow our own ideas and stray off the solid ground of the Word, the further we get from the Pattern. Many believers are orthodox (in the right sense of the word) in their doctrine, but their practice is anything but. Every new innovation is accepted without question. I would put musical instruments in the category of a new innovation, one which isn't sanctioned for Christian worship anywhere in the Holy Scriptures. I'm actually surprised that any believer could really think that musical instruments add anything to worship. But - and I don't say this in a judgemental or critical spirit, but rather a sober one - when we look around Christendom and see the widely varying forms of the organisations claiming to be 'churches', then perhaps it's not a surprise that they're susceptible to anything new that comes along. Denominations are not sanctioned by the Word, and as soon as the scriptures are strayed from as to the fundamental, vital fact of there being but one Body, one Church, then more misguided steps are bound to follow. If Moses had changed just one detail of the tabernacle, it would not longer have been according to the Pattern; after that, what would countless other changes have mattered? The thing would no longer be the divine design, it would be a construction of man, for man to adjust to suit his own tastes. That, I'm very much afraid, is what has happened in Christendom. Real believers, genuine ones, with hearts for Christ are everywhere mixed up in the systems of men. Many don't realise what the divine view is of Christendom. Like the camp of Israel, sin has come into it, and God can no longer be identified with it, because He is righteous. But, as with Israel, there is a way for believers to move according to the mind of God: "And Moses took the tent, and pitched it outside the camp, far from the camp, and called it the Tent of meeting. And it came to pass that every one who sought Jehovah went out to the tent of meeting which was outside the camp." (Exodus 33:7). The writer to the Hebrews brings it to bear for the believer in Christ: "Wherefore also Jesus, that he might sanctify the people by his own blood, suffered without the gate: therefore let us go forth to him without the camp, bearing his reproach: for we have not here an abiding city, but we seek the coming one." (Hebrews 13:12-14). Today, coming out of the camp involves breaking with the outward forms of Christendom, unscriptural systems of men. It involves reproach, reproach from the people who uphold those systems, the religious order of the day. If you move to go without the camp, they'll call you narrow, judgemental, divisive even. Others will look on and support your exercise, but they won't share it themselves. We see that in Exodus 33: "And it came to pass, when Moses went out to the tent, all the people rose up, and stood every man at the entrance of his tent, and they looked after Moses until he entered into the tent. And it came to pass when Moses entered into the tent, the pillar of cloud descended, and stood at the entrance of the tent, and Jehovah talked with Moses. And all the people saw the pillar of cloud standing at the entrance of the tent; and all the people rose and worshipped, every man at the entrance of his tent." (Exodus 33:8-10). Worshippers, they are, undoubtedly. But they're 'tent-door worshippers', they don't want to stray far from what suits the natural mind, the comfortable things they know well. They watch Moses go without the camp, but they have no desire to seek Jehovah with him. Going out means reproach. Not many are willing to bear the reproach because it comes, not from unbelievers so much, but from professing Christians, some of whom may be real believers. That is often the hardest reproach to bear.
I hope the brethren don't think that in having said the above I'm passing judgement on other believers. I know I don't occupy a superior position, and I need to be in self-judgement. I have to ask myself if I'm a tent-door worshipper. I may not be in a denomination, I may not be in the camp outwardly, but am I without the camp inwardly as well? I need to maintain that inward separation from what I know to be unholy. If I don't, I can introduce something into the circle of the brethren which is poison, like the man who gathered a lap full of wild colocynths for the pot in 2 Kings 4. A lap full is a man's measure - what I bring might add death to the pot, even though everyone else is bringing good ingredients for the pottage. Thank God for the Christ, as He is seen here in the meal (2 Kings 4:41) which annuls death. Bringing in something of Christ counters and overcomes an evil influence. Still, I should know my colocynths when I see them. I should be on my guard constantly against that which is not of God, and which can only bring death.
God's heart is blessed when we come to Him with music. He is the God of music and instruments played to bring honour and glory to Him is just as important as dancing before Him, and singing, and shouting, and performing art before Him---with excellence---it is all to His glory! After all it is He who gifts us with these abilities, and when we do anything in complete adoration to glorify Him, He is indeed glorifies and blessed---and so are we both blessed and edified.
I thought that satan was the one who specialized in music.
I realize that what I am about to say will, on face value, seem like I'm being argumentative. I can assure you that that is NOT the intent here...........
That said, may I suggest that God does not need ANYTHING from us. I don't see that as Biblical.
To say that he is "blessed," implies some sort of deficiency in God that is only met by us. I can't wrap my head around that, from Scripture.
Is there "rejoicing" in Heaven under some circumstances? Yes, THAT would be Biblically sound to say. That "God" is somehow enriched by us.........I believe that stretches the understanding of who and what God is.
-Soupy
God does need us, for that is who He works through in the world---the Body of Christ. As for worship, He desires it from His people. God has no deficiency, but He enjoys us blessing Him, just as any father enjoys His children blessing him.
The God who spoke the universe and everything in existence does not need us.
No, He spoke the universe into creation. Surely he has enough power to have 7 billion people to do his every will like zombies.
But that's not why he made us.
Sure, He desires us to follow him, but there is no need of us to keep God in existence.
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Yes, He sure did speak the universe into being. However, God restrains Himself and doesn't manipulate people like they are zombies.
Are you OK?
My apologies for that example, I could have worded it better.
I agree, he doesn't manipulate people like they are zombies. The matter of our free will proof of that. However, God does not need us for anything. He loves us, he desires us to follow him, but he does not need anything.
I completely disagree with you. A father needs His children and their love. He needs and desires intimacy and fellowship with His children. He also needs us, His ambassadors, to go about doing His business in the world, enlarging His Kingdom and pushing back the darkness. That is His plan---there is no other.
Actually, I was intending the part you quoted more in the sense of whether I should be questioning how others choose to go about things but you raise good points.
My father never needed my love, he desired my love.
For there to be a need means that there is a lack of something. God lacks nothing.
Everyone needs the love of their family. No one is implying God has a lack of anything.
This was our church in Canada 3 years ago and though the "worship" service was what it was the church of 15,000 was deader than a doornail...
http://www.woodvale.ca/#/media
Look up June 24, 2012... that was our last service...