Church Worship Music

Do we see anywhere in the bible where it is wrong to worship the Lord with instruments? No.
Do we see anywhere in the bible where it is necessary to worship the Lord with instruments? No.

In the end, both sides are worshiping the Lord, and they are both doing it correctly (given the conditions of their own heart.)

I believe Romans 14:5-6 can apply here

If it is a man's personal conviction to not play an instrument due to his past, then praise God, he can still worship the Lord.
If a man is an awesome guitar player, and dedicates his abilities to the Lord, then praise God, he is using his abilities for the Lord.

Both men are right, Both men are worshiping the Lord.
 
Grant Melville said:
I have to say, there's no convincing scriptural case put forward here: the first two articles rely solely on one reference to the Greek word psallo or psallontes, a word which all respected scholars of Greek agree was not used in its radical form ("to rub or touch," "to twitch or twang.") even in the time of the early fathers, never mind the apostles. The third doesn't even go as far as to explore the Greek.


Legalism is a strong word, and we have to be careful how we apply it. If we start to apply it to those who don't accept practices not sanctioned by the Word, then very quickly we'll find it's used against any and every attempt to stand for Biblical mandate in any matter.
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There is no convincing scriptural case for your narrow, legalistic view.
 
Klub said:
Do we see anywhere in the bible where it is wrong to worship the Lord with instruments? No.
Do we see anywhere in the bible where it is necessary to worship the Lord with instruments? No.

In the end, both sides are worshiping the Lord, and they are both doing it correctly (given the conditions of their own heart.)

I believe Romans 14:5-6 can apply here

If it is a man's personal conviction to not play an instrument due to his past, then praise God, he can still worship the Lord.
If a man is an awesome guitar player, and dedicates his abilities to the Lord, then praise God, he is using his abilities for the Lord.

Both men are right, Both men are worshiping the Lord.
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Worship that is hindered because someone thinks that instruments are wrong is simply religion gone amok...and that is wrong.
 
Euphemia said:
Worship that is hindered because someone thinks that instruments are wrong is simply religion gone amok...and that is wrong.
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I agree, as is thinking that worship without instruments is lacking.
Both sides are right in their worship, but if either side says the other side is wrong, they become wrong in their judgement.
 
Euphemia said:
There is no convincing scriptural case for your narrow, legalistic view.
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I think things are getting a bit heated here, so before a moderator has to step in, I'd just like to remind everyone (myself included) that we're all friends and brethren here, and we're having a friendly discussion.

Euphemia, sister. If you read my previous posts on this thread, you'll see that I've quoted numerous scriptures, and I could quote more, which show us that our worship is of a different character to that of the Old Testament period. I think the key to this is really to look at the contrast between Christian and Jewish worship. If we understand the types and how they've become realities in Christianity, then it quickly becomes clear that we don't lose anything at all by being simple and un-complicatedly Biblical in the way we worship. In fact, we gain! :D It's a win-win.
 
Klub said:
I agree, as is thinking that worship without instruments is lacking.
Both sides are right in their worship, but if either side says the other side is wrong, they become wrong in their judgement.
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Sorry, but that is not correct. God is being gypped when people reject the fact that skilled musicians can freely minister before the church and before the Lord.
 
Grant Melville said:
I think things are getting a bit heated here, so before a moderator has to step in, I'd just like to remind everyone (myself included) that we're all friends and brethren here, and we're having a friendly discussion.

Euphemia, sister. If you read my previous posts on this thread, you'll see that I've quoted numerous scriptures, and I could quote more, which show us that our worship is of a different character to that of the Old Testament period. I think the key to this is really to look at the contrast between Christian and Jewish worship. If we understand the types and how they've become realities in Christianity, then it quickly becomes clear that we don't lose anything at all by being simple and un-complicatedly Biblical in the way we worship. In fact, we gain! :D It's a win-win.
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There is no difference between David playing his lyre and dancing joyfully before the Lord and me playing the piano, and dancing before my Lord.
 
Euphemia said:
There is no difference between David playing his lyre and dancing joyfully before the Lord and me playing the piano, and dancing before my Lord.
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I think the difference lies in the fact that David was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit, whereas you are.

David worshipped in the way that he knew how, the way that was pleasing to God. David offered up burnt-offerings and peace-offerings before God (2 Samuel 6:17). Does God still take pleasure in burnt-offerings and peace-offerings? Is there anything missing from our worship because we don't offer to God in that way? No, because the offerings were part of something He set aside, because the substantiating of all the types and figures had come in: the Lord Jesus Himself. He is the burnt-offering and the peace-offering. "But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for also the Father seeks such as his worshippers. God is a spirit; and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and truth." (John 4:23-24). We have the Holy Spirit so that we can worship in spirit and in truth, not with offerings, dancing and instruments, not in the mountain, not in Jerusalem. If these things were so important to His worship, why has God neglected to mention any of them in connection with it? Because He has given us everything we need so that we can worship in spirit and in truth. We are fully fitted for worship by the hand of God. Just as we could do nothing by way of works to contribute to our salvation and reconciliation to God, we can do nothing by way of works to worship God. In both cases, He has done it all, there is blessed sufficiency in Christ! If we come to an appreciation of that, we'll no longer need or desire anything else other than what God has provided for His worship. We'll lay aside earthly things - not because of any legal prohibition - but because we know the all-sufficiency of Jesus. We know that offering up a precious impression of Him in thought or prayer, in spoken word or singing, that is enough, more than enough to delight the Father's heart. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight." (Matthew 3:17), the only Man every to walk the earth on whom the Spirit could descend as a dove. There can only be one offering, and it has to be that perfect Man, impressions of Him stored up in the vessels of the heart to be poured out before the Father for a sweet savour.
 
David played Holy Spirit inspired music and wrote Spirit-inspired lyrics, and led the full-time choirs and musicians in the tabernacle, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, teaches us in scripture just how to worship, and how God is pleased with it all.

Considering spiritual giftedness and skill as something that is only carnal is a false measure.

I do believe that your indoctrination concerning these things is coming up against the real truth about worship.
 
Euphemia said:
David played Holy Spirit inspired music and wrote Spirit-inspired lyrics, and led the full-time choirs and musicians in the tabernacle, and under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, teaches us in scripture just how to worship, and how God is pleased with it all.
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I think it's important to bear in mind, for the sake of accuracy, that the Holy Spirit hadn't come in a general way at that time - He wasn't indwelling believers. The Spirit of God "came upon" certain ones at certain times, but He didn't "dwell" in any. David spoke directly with God, and received his instructions from Him in that way (for example, 1 Kings 5:5). It was a very different form of communication and worship from what we enjoy. One key difference between David's day and our day is really the presence of the Holy Spirit, indwelling the believer. He gives us the capability of spiritual worship, as the Lord brings out in John 4.
Euphemia said:
Considering spiritual giftedness and skill as something that is only carnal is a false measure.
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That would certainly be true if we were talking about spiritual gifts, but musicianship isn't a spiritual gift. Unbelievers cannot receive spiritual gifts, yet they can play musical instruments.
 
Grant Melville said:
I think it's important to bear in mind, for the sake of accuracy, that the Holy Spirit hadn't come in a general way at that time - He wasn't indwelling believers. The Spirit of God "came upon" certain ones at certain times, but He didn't "dwell" in any. David spoke directly with God, and received his instructions from Him in that way (for example, 1 Kings 5:5). It was a very different form of communication and worship from what we enjoy. One key difference between David's day and our day is really the presence of the Holy Spirit, indwelling the believer. He gives us the capability of spiritual worship, as the Lord brings out in John 4.

That would certainly be true if we were talking about spiritual gifts, but musicianship isn't a spiritual gift. Unbelievers cannot receive spiritual gifts, yet they can play musical instruments.
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It makes no real difference. Holy Spirit hasn't changed, and how He worked in David's life is how He can work in ours, and even more.

Craftsman and musician can indeed qualify as spiritual gifts.
 
Grant Melville said:
I have a simple question: how can anything be lacking if Christ is in it? "... in the midst of the assembly will I sing Thy praises." (Hebrews 2:12). Surely, He is all-sufficient.
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I was saying that if you think worship without instruments is lacking, you are wrong sorry for the not not writing that out well
 
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord.
Why is it brethren aregue over silly things and leave the building up of each other out ?
Where is the fellowship in this kind of behavior ?

Just asking is all
God Bless
Jim
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord.
Why is it brethren aregue over silly things and leave the building up of each other out ?
Where is the fellowship in this kind of behavior ?

Just asking is all
God Bless
Jim
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It's a divisive spirit that continually rips the Body of Christ off. It's an age old scheme that always works. Why should the devil try anything new?
 
Euphemia said:
It's a divisive spirit that continually rips the Body of Christ off. It's an age old scheme that always works. Why should the devil try anything new?
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Fish Catcher Jim said:
If it aint broke - why fix it
this would be so funny if it were not so sadly true
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Yes, that's something we can surely all agree on, that's there's so much division among brethren and it's a terribly sad situation. Unity certainly doesn't come about by us focusing on what divides us - if Christ as the great Centre of attraction is our occupation, then we'll all be drawn together. We do need to be maintained in unity though, there's no doubt about that. "... if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another..." (1 John 1:7). It does require care on our part, to ensure that we are in fact walking in the light. Part of that is fidelity to the word of God, which is a serious issue in Christendom. A major source of division is the introduction of things not sanctioned by the Word, things introduced perhaps with the best of intentions and with outward piety. We see that in 1 Kings.

"And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like the feast that was in Judah, and he offered upon the altar. So did he in Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made; and he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places that he had made. And he offered upon the altar that he had made in Bethel, on the fifteenth day of the eighth month, in the month which he had devised of his own heart; and he made a feast for the children of Israel, and he offered upon the altar, burning incense." - 1 Kings 12:32-33

There's that telling phrase "devised of his own heart". It has an outward appearance of godliness, it was "like the feast that was in Judah", but the whole thing is corrupt. Now, I wouldn't for a moment compare any believer to Jeroboam! But Christendom is full of Jeroboam's devisings, and we have to be careful not to be drawn, unsuspecting, into that kind of thing, as the children of Israel were.
 
Euphemia said:
I do believe that your indoctrination concerning these things is coming up against the real truth about worship.
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Euphemia said:
Craftsman and musician can indeed qualify as spiritual gifts.
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Well... as I've said before, I would be quite happy to consider that, if you could provide any scriptural basis for this doctrine. I'll happily bow to the authority of Scripture in an instant, and I'd be glad to be proved to be in the wrong if it resulted in peace and the healing of division among the brethren. It's for that reason that I don't think that this is a silly argument or a minor, inconsequential point. The issue itself might not be the most fundamental, but the principle behind it is: what saith the Scriptures?
 
Grant Melville said:
Well... as I've said before, I would be quite happy to consider that, if you could provide any scriptural basis for this doctrine. I'll happily bow to the authority of Scripture in an instant, and I'd be glad to be proved to be in the wrong if it resulted in peace and the healing of division among the brethren. It's for that reason that I don't think that this is a silly argument or a minor, inconsequential point. The issue itself might not be the most fundamental, but the principle behind it is: what saith the Scriptures?
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God is the giver. He gives people specific abilities so that they will be useful in service to Him. Scripturally that is proven in His use of skilled craftsmen to create beautiful and awesome holy objects for use in His tabernacle, and in the entire construction of the tabernacle. He endowed many people with the gift of music and inspired them with lyrics and music for praise to Himself. Musical instruments were created and used in His house.

Heaven is the same---objects of beauty and music, both vocal and with instrumentation is perpetually going on. What is in heaven is also here on earth. It is only carnal reasoning and legalism that blocks this very simply truth and demands a reason.

The division comes from the legalistic spirit that makes a demand of the New Testament, drawing a line after the Old Testament. God hasn't changed.
 
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