Communion/Eucharist/Lord's Supper.

[Glomung]

I have no desire to commune in a church that doesnt want me there anyway.

It is not that "they don't want you there".
It is that for Christians of older traditions (like the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox)
once the host and wine are consecrated, the host is truly the body of Christ, and the wine is truly His blood.
So to offer communion to one who does not hold this to be true is blasphemy.
So they are trying to keep folks from commiting grave sin.

 

[Lanolin]

Verse 33 says tarry for one another...tarry means wait.

Basically people were not eating together. The passover was a special family meal. It was not like a snack bar or fast food.

 

[Lanolin]

Oh..the catholics are weird...they can believe what they like, it doesnt bother me, cos I dont go to any church like that.

I know my God, and he is not like that. His Word is true in the Bible. Jesus said this is my body and blood and he was holding the cup in his hands and the bread while he was physically there with the disciples..he didnt somehow magically transform himself into being bread and wine. He said do this..eat and drink..in rememberance of me. So we remember what those two foods represent. So whenever we do that, we in His presence...but we dont worship the actual bread and wine itself. Which I heard some people do, like they put the bread in a special box and adore it. That to me is just weird idolatry.

Im sure they would look down on anyone else who didnt believe the same they do, which is why heaps of christians got matryred in the olden days for not following that law that required that kind of idolatry.

Anyway...sorry. Its not an issue cos clearly catholics are different from other christians. And like to be that way.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Oh..the catholics are weird...they can believe what they like, it doesnt bother me, cos I dont go to any church like that.

I know my God, and he is not like that. His Word is true in the Bible. Jesus said this is my body and blood and he was holding the cup in his hands and the bread while he was physically there with the disciples..he didnt somehow magically transform himself into being bread and wine. He said do this..eat and drink..in rememberance of me. So we remember what those two foods represent. So whenever we do that, we in His presence...but we dont worship the actual bread and wine itself. Which I heard some people do, like they put the bread in a special box and adore it. That to me is just weird idolatry.

Im sure they would look down on anyone else who didnt believe the same they do, which is why heaps of christians got matryred in the olden days for not following that law that required that kind of idolatry.

Anyway...sorry. Its not an issue cos clearly catholics are different from other christians. And like to be that way.

Lanolin, we aren't here to debate this subject. All I intended to do was share what I believe just as everyone is sharing what they believe.

But in response to what you heard about people worshiping the bread and wine as if it was Christ and adoring it...the answer is a sincere and firm YES. That is precisely what we do when we are face to face with the Eucharist. We do it because we believe it is Christ. If we believe it is Christ, we better be on our knees before Him.

Now of course if were are wrong, then we would be idolaters and committing sin against the first commandment. Though if we are right, then we are in good form to worship the Eucharist because it means that the Eucharist is Christ in body, blood, soul, and divinity.

Again, I prefer not to debate in this thread, and that is not what any of my responses were for. We are all sharing our beliefs on Communion and that is all I am doing.

 

[Lanolin]

Oh ok. Well its not necessary, but if your church requires it, I am not going to judge you.

 

[Lanolin]

God will judge us on how we conduct ourselves at his table anyway. I think He would like everyone who believes to partake. So we can all enjoy the meal together.

 

[calvin]

Reading the kjv it is clear the passage is not about being drunk. I dont know your version but you quoting out of context.
It is about people who do not wait for each other having a meal..some go hungry while others have already eaten.

Why would God use alcohol to judge people. That makes no sense.

Lanolin, may I suggest that it would be most helpful if you were to use the quote feature when you are answering someone's post. It can get tricky understanding where you are coming from...sometimes.
Comments were made in post # 36 which I believe you responded to in post # 40 and also again in post #42......just something to think about.

 

[calvin]

Oh..the catholics are weird...they can believe what they like, it doesnt bother me, cos I dont go to any church like that.

Yes Lanolin, Lysander beat me to the punch on this issue. We are not here to indulge in catholic bashing, neither in this thread or any other.
thanks

 

[calvin]

Here is an excerpt from I Corinthians Ch 11 (NIV)

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

33 So then, my brothers and sisters, when you gather to eat, you should all eat together. 34 Anyone who is hungry should eat something at home, so that when you meet together it may not result in judgment.

I think it is clear here that this congregation served alcoholic wine. It was so much that it caused members to become intoxicated. Verse 30 seems to talk about communicants staggering, throwing up, and dozing, although I have heard it said that this was more a statement of their general health suffering, even unto death.

Verse 34, I would offer, is advice that when one is to receive this sacrament that it should be done with food already in the stomach, so that the effect of the wine will be lessened.

I would also offer that Verse 32 shows that the unpleasant effects of being intoxicated should be taken by the believer bas correction by the Lord and an expression of His love.

Actually, most (not all) of the congregations where I have taken communion have used grape-juice. One church also went so far as to use wafers that were gluten free because of the intolerance of some individuals.

Thank you for sharing this scripture with us, and yes gluten free is certainly something to think about
As to whether there was so much wine being consumed that they were getting pickled we can not surely know.
It is apparent that their custom was markedly different from our customs today, so we probably would be hard put to get drunk and indulge in gluttony at Church.
The admonition to examine ourselves V28 is often cited at the commencement of Communion........can you think of any one from Biblical records who was indeed guilty of the body and blood of the Lord? ie why would Paul say this?
How might we place ourselves outside of the list of eligible communicants?
How might we personally be of the same ilk?
I ask this because in a real sense all sinners are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, what I mean is that I feel in a real sense that my own personal sins put Jesus on that cross.....He died in my place, so I'm guilty of His death.
I'm very conscious of this especially when taking communion.
But then too it is a time of much thanksgiving for the life given for my salvation and the promise of His triumphant return.

 

[Lanolin]

They were guilty cos they didnt wait for others.
Sorry, I dont know how to use the quote feature.

But here is the FULL passage and you will see that it was talking about behaviour at the Lords supper, people were excluding other people by going first and not eating together. It had nothing to do with alcohol, cos drunken means you have eaten and drunken in normal english...like I had drunken water. It does NOT mean it has alcohol in it.

I dont know where ppl get that idea from that you need to drink alcohol and believe that thats Jesus blood. Um no.
Especially all the other passages AGAINST strong drink, and all the testimonies of christians who came out of addictions.

I will post it below. If you dont share with your brothers and sisters in the Lords supper, and exclude them, Paul tells you you are behaving unworthily.

 

[Lanolin]

Uggh i cant make it work on this ipad..but i will go on the other computer.
it is clearly saying that some ppl were taking their own suppers when its all meant to be shared so nobody misses out.

Really, you have to read the whole passage not read it as if you got beer goggles on! actually Im really shocked that anyone would interpret it that way, that God wants you drunk to teach you a lesson and that its your fault if you get drunk at the lords supper! Um, no.

 

[Lanolin]

1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.

8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.

9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.

13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?

14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?

15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.

16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.

21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.

22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another.

34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

 

[Lanolin]

Paul was admonishing the corinthians because they were divided and did not eat together. The Lords supper is meant to be shared. They were meant to wait so that they could all eat together. Some started before others, cos they could not wait.

 

[Lanolin]

They were basically not remembering Jesus and only thinking of themselves, and how hungry they were. They weren't observing the Lords supper as that special family meal and that Jesus wanted them to remember Him.

I'm not teaching anything new here, it's plainly obvious in the passage.

 

[Siloam]

Lanolin: I have problems with my tablet also. I have tried writing my messages on a note app and doing a copy/paste when I got it right, but I have difficulties getting it to paste right. I often end up with multiple pasting's, completely confusing my post. Sometimes when I try to drag to scroll, my finger passes the "Post Reply" button and it's gone before I know it.

Anyway...
I only posted that passage because there was some discussion on whether fermented wine was used or just grape-juice. I thought that this would show that at least in that congregation at that time, alcoholic wine was used.

Calvin wrote:

The Lord commanded that the wine and bread of the Passover be used in remembrance of Him,
The admonition to examine ourselves V28 is often cited at the commencement of Communion........can you think of any one from Biblical records who was indeed guilty of the body and blood of the Lord? ie why would Paul say this?
How might we place ourselves outside of the list of eligible communicants?
How might we personally be of the same ilk?​

It is important that each of us examine our heart and make sure that all sins the Holy Spirit has drawn to our attention have been confessed. This meal is in remembrance of His suffering for our sins. To partake of communion when sin is on our heart robs our soul of perceiving the both Lord's suffering for us, and His forgiveness.

Note: I had a layman's summary of some of the Eucharistic views regarding Transubstantiation vs Consubstantiation vs Memorialism, etc but thought that might start a "who is right" war. If we can refrain from beating each other up, I would appreciate any who would like to post a short statement regarding each major view. I would ask that we try to learn each others viewpoint, even if we are not persuaded and not try to be a victor. Learning how others view Him is a large part of why I am on this site.

 

[calvin]

They were guilty cos they didnt wait for others.
Sorry, I dont know how to use the quote feature.

There are basically two ways to quote. The way I have chosen here is to just highlight the part of your post I want to comment on. wait a second or two and a little balloon will display. it is a black rectangle with the word "Reply" in it. Click on that and the forum will paste the text along with detail of who you are quoting into a new window. It is automatic. If I wanted to quote your entire post, I would just click on the 'reply' link at the bottom right of your post (right next to the Like/Amen link as follows:

They were guilty cos they didnt wait for others.
Sorry, I dont know how to use the quote feature.

But here is the FULL passage and you will see that it was talking about behaviour at the Lords supper, people were excluding other people by going first and not eating together. It had nothing to do with alcohol, cos drunken means you have eaten and drunken in normal english...like I had drunken water. It does NOT mean it has alcohol in it.

I dont know where ppl get that idea from that you need to drink alcohol and believe that thats Jesus blood. Um no.
Especially all the other passages AGAINST strong drink, and all the testimonies of christians who came out of addictions.

I will post it below. If you dont share with your brothers and sisters in the Lords supper, and exclude them, Paul tells you you are behaving unworthily.

There is your full post quoted ready for my reply.

 

[calvin]

Note: I had a layman's summary of some of the Eucharistic views regarding Transubstantiation vs Consubstantiation vs Memorialism, etc but thought that might start a "who is right" war.

You are most likely right. Thanks for withholding

 

[Lanolin]

Thanks..i have trouble will try it next time.
I prolly said a bit too much..PLEASE dont think im 'bashing' anyone I just go by the Bible so it may conflict with other peoples views in certain established churches. When I find that, I will always go to the Bible to 'see if these things are so' because I dont know who is right within each denom but I do know God is never wrong.

It is ok because the holy spirit will correct you if you really ask God for wisdom and confused about an issue. He will teach you..so I dont need to do it, and certainly, do not want to debate!

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Discussion on the Eucharist is definitely one of those things that may stir things up because the differences we hold about that specific thing is pretty great.

For instance, it is offensive to a Presbyterian or a Baptist to see a Catholic or an Orthodox kneeling before it because, to them, he is disobeying God gravely. And it's offensive to a Catholic and Orthodox if someone calls the Eucharist "a piece of bread" (meaning ONLY a piece of bread) because to them, they are spitting on Christ and blaspheming. That is how divided we really are on this subject. And both sides recognize the focus of their faith on it, which makes it all the more a heavy topic.

 

[Lanolin]

Um..im born again so I dont find it offensive in both cases those believers are only doing cos they get taught that way and grew up in those churches.
I dont use the word 'eucharist' either just say the Lords Supper.