So take me through the process. Does the priest ever say your sins are forgiven? If they do then they are wrong.
Confession
- Thread starter Flavio
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I understand what your saying, but Christ told His apostles, "whatever you forgive will be forgiven, whatever you retain will be retained; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will be lost in heaven; I am giving you the keys to heaven."
I agree with that, openness, but I think that will need an assurance that all the members are matured spiritually....
I mean: (if the community is somehow immature: what if the sin was told/ exposed in the public.....
IMO:
Consistent with what I see a pattern in an individual->family->community:
Paul says a Christian husband will sanctify a non-Christian wife…(family as basic unit of a community)
In the same manner a fervent prayer of righteous man in a congregation will blessed a particular member even all of the members…
I think James verse somehow influence the basis of the tradition (John’s verse)….. thus, a form has to be instituted….that is: only to a priest…
That is on the premise on idealism, that is: it follows a man of righteousness, I guess...
Apostles to priests, that will be a big jump, from series of premises/conclusion…. I guess…
As well as there is an alternative interpretation John verse, that I happen to agree, on the premise that "Forgiveness is more on something we do to ourselves, rather than to others"...
http://www.christianforumsite.com/t...y-dividing-the-word-of-god.39700/#post-363764
Thus, as mentioned: I think James verse somehow influence the basis of the tradition (John’s verse)….. thus, a form has to be instituted….that is: only to a priest…
That is on the premise on idealism, that is: it follows a man of righteousness, I guess..
We are to forgive sins against us, as in forgive the wrong deed. God is the only one who can forgive the actual sin.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
And that is what happens in the confessional. Why do you think it would be otherwise?
Because the sin is being confessed to a priest who thinks he has the authority to forgive the sin for God
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
No he doesn't. Who told you that?
There are plenty of catholic websites that state this.
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
He might pronounce the sin forgiven but it has nothing to do with the authority of the priest.
Yea we forgive sin by the authority of Jesus Christ.
It is funny that whenever I post something you are all over my posts. Either you really like me or have some sort of agenda? If you are trying to provoke me it isn't going to work.
Don't you think that just replying to one who has wronged you, who asks for forgivness with a sincere "I forgive you and love you" is sufficient?
Wouldn't that heal the damage done more than doing something to pay for the wrong done?
My dear friend, I hear you. May I say then to you, that confession then, is first and primarily to God. All sin, ultimately, is against God and we need to acknowledge to Him first and foremost that we have sinned, turn away from our sin, and seek His grace.
That is conditional and if we do that, He has promised to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
There are no other Biblical conditions to God’s forgiveness that I know of.
Then when we consider the confessions in the Biblical account, did you notice that in none of those confessions is there a description of the details of the sin. The confession is that we have sinned by transgressing God’s commands, by hardening our necks, and not listening to God.
Remember the thief on the cross simply acknowledged that he was being justly judged and pleaded with Christ, and He was forgiven (Luke 23:41-43). He said nothing about what his sin was. These are the Biblical sort of confessions.
There seems to be no sense in Scripture that the role of confession is to expose the gory details of sin either to God (who already knows them) or to men. Those who want to hear all of the dirt, or believe it is somehow cathartic for sinners to tell it all, I think miss the message of Christ and Scripture.
Love seeks to cover over the sins of others, not to delve into them (Proverbs 10:12; 1 Peter 4:8). Love seeks to lead life towards Christ and not back into the details of failure.
What do you think???
Yes, that would be a sufficient penance in some circumstances for some people. Of course, sometimes a different penance would be needed for a different sin.
But do you think that tradition is worthy to be consider a Bible doctrine? Does that even sound right to you???
If that is the case and you accept that kind of tradition as Bible fact, then what in the world do we do with all of the Old Test believers who did not confess to a priest???? Just a thought!
That verse really does not apply my brother as it was said by Jesus who could in fact forgive sins because He was God.
(From Dr. John Gill).................
However, in any literal and authoritative sense this power was never exercised by one of the apostles, and plainly was never understood by themselves as possessed by them or conveyed to them. The power to intrude upon the relation between men and God cannot have been given by Christ to His ministers in any but a ministerial or declarative sense—as the authorized interpreters of His word, while in the actings of His ministers, the real nature of the power committed to them is seen in the exercise of church discipline.
Just so that we are all on the page, the process we are talking about....."Penance" is NOT a Biblical doctrine or command. It is Catholic not Bible. I say that with love and respect because e I certainly do not want to get banned.
Millions of Roman Catholic people around the world faithfully perform penance and that is their choice to do so.. According to the Catholic Catechism, the priest imposes these acts of penance on the sinner at the time of his confession. These acts of penance are said to expiate (remove) sins. Penance may include saying a series of prayers as punishment for confessed sins. This whole process is at odds with what the Bible says. Now I am not saying this in order to argue or confront or anything else at all. I am simply stating what the facts are and that is all.
Acts 5:29-31 .......
"Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins."
Romans 4:24-25 ........
"if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. "
Romans 4:5.......
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."
Romans 5:9-10......
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. "
Ephesians 2:8......
" For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast"
PeaceLikeaRiver
Inactive
If you misrepresent Catholic beliefs I will speak out. It isn't an agenda, I just happen to disagree with you over a few things.
"Note that the power Christ gave the apostles was twofold: to forgive sins or to hold them bound, which means to retain them unforgiven."
"Is the Catholic who confesses his sins to a priest any better off than the non-Catholic who confesses directly to God? Yes. First, he seeks forgiveness the way Christ intended. Second, by confessing to a priest, the Catholic learns a lesson in humility, which is avoided when one confesses only through private prayer. Third, the Catholic receives sacramental graces the non-Catholic doesn’t get; through the sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces are obtained. Fourth, the Catholic is assured that his sins are forgiven; he does not have to rely on a subjective "feeling." Lastly, the Catholic can also obtain sound advice on avoiding sin in the future."
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-forgiveness-of-sins
So based off the site above being a Catholic is better than being a non-catholic Christian because God isn't good enough? And Catholics receive sacramental graces and through sacrament of penance sins are forgiven and graces obtained? Where is that biblical?