Do you really love God?

[Major]

Do you have a Scripture for this comment?

What about Mark 6:8-9.........
"He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts— but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics."

It seems to me that Jesus sent out His disciples looking like regular people learning to be God dependent. At His last night with them before his death-- Then He said to them in Luke 22:36........
, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one"..

That says to me that certainly if they were rich they would not need to sell a garment to buy a sword, nor would Jesus say he who has a money bag to carry it with them, for they all would have one.

 

[Major]

Major,
What are you honestly doing here. You are using examples of Greedy unsaved to what?
FCJ

What am I doing? Engaging you in Christian discussion!!!

You argued some time ago that everything in the Bible is for us today. Does that somehow not apply to James 5:5???

James 1:2..........."My brethren..........."

Jim, you know that I do not agree with the teaching of prosperity I am only trying to show that IMHO the Bible does not teach prosperity, riches and glamour. No more and no less. Some sects and denominations teach that but not the Bible.

 

[Major]

He didn't make all of us rich. Each has a purpose to serve in the Kingdom to come. Each has been placed in a particular set of circumstances to give each of us a spiritual viewpoint that is particular to us. We are not to judge others nor their circumstances by declaring them lesser or greater than anyone else. Christ said some who are last will be first and some who are first will be last. Just because we don't see the reason doesn't mean there isn't some Heavenly plan at work for that individual. Let each work out his own salvation. I knew 3 great Christians in my life. All 3 of them were poor by earthly standards but incredibly rich by spiritual standards. Rich in wisdom. Rich in giving. Rich in the Lord. I would say the frontlines in Christianity can be found in the mission field. Most missionaries are poor, materialistically speaking.

Amen!

 

[Smiler]

I'm sorry.

Could you please let us know how you see these scriptures brings answers to the main points discussed as you said.

You are quite right to challenge what I quoted. I popped away for a few minutes and realised how far away from the title of this theme were my comments, but I had been left with ideas about having earthly "blessings", and when I returned I found all the activity which had taken place.

I'll quietly pay attention again.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

What am I doing? Engaging you in Christian discussion!!!

You argued some time ago that everything in the Bible is for us today. Does that somehow not apply to James 5:5???

James 1:2..........."My brethren..........."

Jim, I am only trying to show that the Bible does not teach prosperity, riches and glamour. No more and no less.

Major ,
I am glad you feel that's what you are doing. But in truth are you not simply taking scriptures aimed toward the unsaved that have made riches their God and trying to apply them or make them say things they are not.

This does not work Sir and you know that.
From my stand point sir, you are taking scriptures and applying them in ways they were not intended on to back what you are trying to show.

It's no secret that you believe that biblical prosperity is a false teaching, we all have read your postings on how you feel about this and those who teach it.

Now you used David and Psalms as an example a few post ago. Why not bring Psalm 112 into this as well.

Praise ye the Lord.

Blessed is the man that feareth theLord,
that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth:
the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house:
and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4 Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness:
he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.
5 A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth:
he will guide his affairs with discretion.
6 Surely he shall not be moved for ever:
the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance.
7 He shall not be afraid of evil tidings:
his heart is fixed, trusting in theLord.
8 His heart is established, he shall not be afraid,
until he see his desire upon his enemies.
9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor;
his righteousness endureth for ever;
his horn shall be exalted with honour.
10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved;
he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away:
the desire of the wicked shall perish.

I also have learned that if I keep replying to this, you will accuse me of pushing my beliefs. So there you go sir. It is what it is. I am done with this.

Have a very Blessed day
FCJ

 

[Major]

Major ,
I am glad you feel that's what you are doing. But in truth are you not simply taking scriptures aimed toward the unsaved that have made riches their God and trying to apply them or make them say things they are not.

This does not work Sir and you know that.
From my stand point sir, you are taking scriptures and applying them in ways they were not intended on to back what you are trying to show.

It's no secret that you believe that biblical prosperity is a false teaching, we all have read your postings on how you feel about this and those who teach it.

Now you used David and Psalms as an example a few post ago. Why not bring Psalm 112 into this as well.

Praise ye the Lord.

Blessed is the man that feareth theLord,
that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
2 His seed shall be mighty upon earth:
the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
3 Wealth and riches shall be in his house:
and his righteousness endureth for ever.
4 Unto the upright there ariseth light in the darkness:
he is gracious, and full of compassion, and righteous.
5 A good man sheweth favour, and lendeth:
he will guide his affairs with discretion.
6 Surely he shall not be moved for ever:
the righteous shall be in everlasting remembrance.
7 He shall not be afraid of evil tidings:
his heart is fixed, trusting in theLord.
8 His heart is established, he shall not be afraid,
until he see his desire upon his enemies.
9 He hath dispersed, he hath given to the poor;
his righteousness endureth for ever;
his horn shall be exalted with honour.
10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved;
he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away:
the desire of the wicked shall perish.

I also have learned that if I keep replying to this, you will accuse me of pushing my beliefs. So there you go sir. It is what it is. I am done with this.

Have a very Blessed day
FCJ

You are 100% correct.

You said and I agree that..........
"It's no secret that you believe that biblical prosperity is a false teaching, we all have read your postings on how you feel about this and those who teach it."

But then to say...........
". But in truth are you not simply taking scriptures aimed toward the unsaved that have made riches their God and trying to apply them or make them say things they are not."

That my brother in incorrect and you are wrong. It was you who said that All Scriptures applies to us today. You can not say that and then turn around and reject it when you do not agree with what it says.

Yes.......James is condemning the godless rich for hoarding their money. But why is that not applicable to the believers as well as unbelievers?

Why do you think that James turned from talking to the godly and began to talk to the ungodly? The fact is that he didn't change at all. He is still speaking to the godly. As he speaks to the ungodly he is also speaking to the Godly that live in an ungodly world.

John 16:33 says.........
In the world ye shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world".

If you choose not to discuss this further, that is your choice. I would only ask that you do not close the thread because you do not want to participate. I think that a lot of people will like to join in.

 

[Cturtle]

What about Mark 6:8-9.........
"He commanded them to take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bag, no bread, no copper in their money belts— but to wear sandals, and not to put on two tunics."

It seems to me that Jesus sent out His disciples looking like regular people learning to be God dependent. At His last night with them before his death-- Then He said to them in Luke 22:36........
, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one"..

That says to me that certainly if they were rich they would not need to sell a garment to buy a sword, nor would Jesus say he who has a money bag to carry it with them, for they all would have one.

I don't agree with you that this has anything to do with Jesus telling ministers that they have to be poor. Yes i do agree that it speaks to being God dependant, but not In poverty. For those whose homes they would have stayed in would have abundantly provided for them while they were there.

Blessings

 

[Cturtle]

I'm sorry.

Could you please let us know how you see these scriptures brings answers to the main points discussed as you said.

You are quite right to challenge what I quoted. I popped away for a few minutes and realised how far away from the title of this theme were my comments, but I had been left with ideas about having earthly "blessings", and when I returned I found all the activity which had taken place.

I'll quietly pay attention again.

Maybe we should start a thread on earthly blessings. For nothing in the Bible says that one cannot have good things. For God desires to bless His children here and in heaven.


New Living Translation. James 1:17
Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow.

God bless you abundantly sir

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

That my brother in incorrect and you are wrong. It was you who said that All Scriptures applies to us today. You can not say that and then turn around and reject it when you do not agree with what it says.

Major,
Do you really need to twist things that are said to make your point?
If a scripture is written about an ungodly person it stays that way.

I said you used scriptures spoken about ungodly folks who put their trust in riches as an example for Christians being poor.

That is what you did.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Yes.......James is condemning the godless rich for hoarding their money. But why is that not applicable to the believers as well as unbelievers?

It is When and Only When believers place their riches over God and His Ways.

Explain psalm 112 then. You ignored this part of my reply.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

If you choose not to discuss this further, that is your choice. I would only ask that you do not close the thread because you do not want to participate. I think that a lot of people will like to join in.

I do what I am told. If I am told to shut it down then that's what I will do.
Nothing more nor nothing less

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

You are 100% correct.

You said and I agree that..........
"It's no secret that you believe that biblical prosperity is a false teaching, we all have read your postings on how you feel about this and those who teach it."

Then we can add many things to the list of things that you personally don't believe are biblical.

Let Scripture speak for itself

 

[Cturtle]

At His last night with them before his death-- Then He said to them in Luke 22:36........
, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one"..

That says to me that certainly if they were rich they would not need to sell a garment to buy a sword, nor would Jesus say he who has a money bag to carry it with them, for they all would have one

In my opinion, from what I believe the Holy Spirit teaching me, is that Jesus had taught them to be good givers. And so they may not have had a lot of money on them at that moment, and as Jesus knew that, He instructed them on what to do. For like you said they were totally dependant upon God for everything.

But this still does not say that they were destined to live in poverty, just because they were a minister of the gospel. For God takes good care of those whom believe that He desires for them to be well taken care of.

Just like in everything faith in The Word And God's promises, desires and ability is the key to promises being fulfilled. The other key is being obedient to what He says. For if one is not obedient to His commands, then He will not manifest Himself on their behalf (jn 14:21)

Blessings my friend

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

In my opinion, from what I believe the Holy Spirit teaching me, is that Jesus had taught them to be good givers. And so they may not have had a lot of money on them at that moment, and as Jesus knew that, He instructed them on what to do. For like you said they were totally dependant upon God for everything.

But this still does not say that they were destined to live in poverty, just because they were a minister of the gospel. For God takes good care of those whom believe that He desires for them to be well taken care of.

Just like in everything faith in The Word And God's promises, desires and ability is the key to promises being fulfilled. The other key is being obedient to what He says. For if one is not obedient to His commands, then He will not manifest Himself on their behalf (jn 14:21)

Blessings my friend

Exactly


1. You can't give if you have not
2. You don't need a treasurer if you are poor.
3. This was Jesus giving proof while He was still here towards the following
A. He has given us (them) the power and authority of His name
B. He is Our Source and will take care of them

I bet when they came back they were all so excited proclaiming how they commanded demons and they obeyed and we laid hands on the sick and they were healed. How they had everything they needed and more.

Remember.....Jesus was about to leave and these men needed to believe and trust what Jesus had been teaching and preparing them for.

 

[Major]

In my opinion, from what I believe the Holy Spirit teaching me, is that Jesus had taught them to be good givers. And so they may not have had a lot of money on them at that moment, and as Jesus knew that, He instructed them on what to do. For like you said they were totally dependant upon God for everything.

But this still does not say that they were destined to live in poverty, just because they were a minister of the gospel. For God takes good care of those whom believe that He desires for them to be well taken care of.

Just like in everything faith in The Word And God's promises, desires and ability is the key to promises being fulfilled. The other key is being obedient to what He says. For if one is not obedient to His commands, then He will not manifest Himself on their behalf (jn 14:21)

Blessings my friend

While I agree with you in that..........."But this still does not say that they were destined to live in poverty, just because they were a minister of the gospel", it is just as true that the opposite would be the case as well.

The historical fact is that none of the disciples lived and then died prosperous.

 

[Major]

Then we can add many things to the list of things that you personally don't believe are biblical.

Let Scripture speak for itself

May I ask you Jim, why as a moderator you are being so accusatory and argumentative????

Why can't we just discuss this and leave out the personal stuff.

But since you brought it up.......Of course you are welcome add things to the list of things I do not personally believe are Biblical. The fact is that there is a lot of things talked about on this site that I do not accept as Biblical because they are not Biblical. And YES you can add the "Prosperity Gospel" that you personally do accept to that list.

But can that not be said of you and everyone else in this world?

 

[Cturtle]

The historical fact is that none of the disciples lived and then died prosperous.

Probably because they followed in Jesus footsteps and were great givers, making sure that everyone whom was a believer was well taken care of. Which is the true reason for Biblical prosperity. It's not just for us, but to make sure others have what they need as well. I do think that though they were not super rich, they were comfortable and well taken care of.

Blessings

 

[Major]

I don't agree with you that this has anything to do with Jesus telling ministers that they have to be poor. Yes i do agree that it speaks to being God dependant, but not In poverty. For those whose homes they would have stayed in would have abundantly provided for them while they were there.

Blessings

I am not saying and have not said that Jesus taught that ministers should be poor. IF I came across that way I was in error.

I am not saying that money in and of itself is bad. I am not a poor man. God has blessed me greatly and I am truly thankful for His care and guidance in my life.

What I am saying is that Jesus didn’t die on the cross to be our genie. He knows that while money isn’t bad but an excessive amount of money (or things) often harms us. That is why He commands His Followers to “store up treasures in heaven.”

Now we can discuss this all day if you want to but the Bible truth is that God never promises His Followers financial wealth.

The Apostle Paul warns us in 1 Tim. 6:10........
“For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs".

Now that is not one of those things on any list I have but it is either true or it is not true and that is the bottom line. I accept it as it is written.

You will also find this hard to accept...........The stark irony of the prosperity gospel is that it creates poor Christians.!!!!

Here is something else hard to accept.........God will never owe us anything just because we packed our heavenly bank account full of faith. Instead, God gives us the ultimate gift of eternal life as His children—a gift we could never earn.

Rather than buying into harmful prosperity theology, where we wait for God to bless us because of our faith, we should cultivate hearts of gratitude for the true Gospel. Thankfulness realigns us toward how God is already blessing us. It also opens new opportunities for other gifts, because it creates hopeful expectations of how God might really want to work in a situation, not what He has to do.

That is what I believe. I am your servant if you wish to talk about this more.

 

[Major]

Probably because they followed in Jesus footsteps and were great givers, making sure that everyone whom was a believer was well taken care of. Which is the true reason for Biblical prosperity. It's not just for us, but to make sure others have what they need as well. I do think that though they were not super rich, they were comfortable and well taken care of.

Blessings

And God bless you and my I use the term you use frequently......"Do you have a Scripture for this comment?"

Instead of being "comfortable" the Scriptures say something else.

Acts 3:6: Then Peter said,
"Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk."

This does not mean they had none on them at the time; they had NO money. These are words out of their own mouths recorded by the Holy Spirit through their hands as Scripture.

 

[Major]

Major,
Do you really need to twist things that are said to make your point?
If a scripture is written about an ungodly person it stays that way.

I said you used scriptures spoken about ungodly folks who put their trust in riches as an example for Christians being poor.

That is what you did.

Twist???? NO!

As Jews converted they lost their family friend's and job.The people in the church gave the best seats to those who were rich hoping for some response in help. This is why he writes in James 5:1-5.............
"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days. Indeed the wages of the laborers who mowed your fields, which you kept back by fraud, cry out; and the cries of the reapers have reached the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth. You have lived on the earth in pleasure and luxury; you have fattened your hearts as in a day of slaughter. "

It is not twisting anything but is my understanding that this is a sobering rebuke for those who will be accountable for using their money to promote themselves and neglect the needs of the people. Yes, there will be rich church people in the last days that will be judged for their covetedness.

My dear friend, when ever a preacher has to have a $65 million dollar jet to spread the gospel..........that is "covetedness".