First Church?

[ixoye_8]

My son does not call me Father either because of the Word. He calls me Biodad.

blessings.

that is your choice .. and you have a right to do that ..
but as I have pointed out .. the bible might say that, but scripture does not ..

in the 10 commandments God Himself uses "father" it inre to a genetic father ..
as well as the many times Jesus uses it as well inre to a genetic father ..
and Paul in 1Cr 4:15 uses it inre a spiritual father (as well as Peter) ..
so you may do well if you look and see the Greek word οὐ (no, not) is nowhere to be found in that verse in scripture ..

God Bless you ..

 

[ixoye_8]

BTW: there are many instances where the translators add NO or NOT where it does not belong .. that is what I call revisionism of scripture ..

in my opinion .. that is UNACCEPTABLE ..

man shall live by EACH & EVERY word from the mouth of God ..
NOT by the word from the mouth of men ..

as for me and my house, we will follow the Lord ..

God Bless you ..

 

[Michael B]

I am glad you keep referring to the Greek words not and no mean the same thing in that context, show me were a mortal man is called a father in the spiritual context, I still have not seen one scripture to prove your point.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

From what I understand the term is used in a spiritual aspect as in to infer that the priest is some how, referring himself as a leader, or as a go between.

That's a good assessment.

Matthew 23:9 (just like all the verses between verse 1 and verse 11) is about exposing the Pharisees and their hypocrisy. This isn't a passage forbidding the term, but forbidding the mis-title. Matthew 23:8 mentions that they ought not be called 'Rabbi' (a term one might regard outside of Judaism as teacher, pastor, or even father) -- but like verse 9, this verses is exposing hypocrisy, as it moves forward in saying they are all brothers, and only Christ is the final authority.

Taking the passage in the extreme literal sense means overlooking the context of the passage. If it is literal, then it would indeed mean terms like "founding fathers," "forefathers" or even just calling one's own father "father" becomes forbidden, and the passage's message gets lost.

 

[ixoye_8]

Taking the passage in the extreme literal sense means overlooking the context of the passage. If it is literal, then it would indeed mean terms like "founding fathers," "forefathers" or even just calling one's own father "father" becomes forbidden, and the passage's message gets lost.

g3962
πατήρ patēr

Mat 19:19 HONOR YOUR FATHER g3962 AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

indeed .. that makes Jesus a hypocrite ..
and the verse saying the Father also spoke wrongly ..

The KJV translates Strongs G3962 in the following manner:
Father (268x), father (150x).

so that is 150 times in the NT using "father" other then for God ..
that should be a pretty good hint that one verses translation is askew

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I am glad you keep referring to the Greek words not and no mean the same thing in that context, show me were a mortal man is called a father in the spiritual context, I still have not seen one scripture to prove your point.

I provided a few already. I'll focus on one so that it can be clearer.

1 John 2:13-14 which says "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one."

When he wrote this, this wasn't meaning "dads" (ie, biological fathers). He is saying this to elders of the faith, those mature in their faith. In the Jewish text, the word is "avot."

Matthew 23:9 makes no distinction between spiritual fathers and biological fathers. This passage is directly pointing to those discrediting the fatherhood of God, which is what the Pharisees and scribes were doing. They wanted all the attention focused on them. They were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation.

And even if you are referring this verse as a ban against calling anyone your spiritual father, then you'll find even more problems in the rest of scripture. For instance, one passage I also highlighted in Luke 16, the rich man was consistently using this term in the spiritual sense of Abraham, not the biological sense. Paul did the same thing in Romans 4 calling him the "Father of the uncircumcised."

In Acts 7, Stephen and Paul referred to the Jewish priests as brothers and fathers.

So if you are regarding Matthew 23:9 as an ban on the term in the spiritual sense, then that means Jesus, Paul, and Stephen all got it wrong.

Calling a priest "father" is imitating the example given to us by Jesus, Paul, and Stephen -- used in the spiritual sense -- as long as we remember that our true father is God, the Father, and that all aspects of our fatherhood are derived from Him.

 

[Michael B]

I provided a few already. I'll focus on one so that it can be clearer.

1 John 2:13-14 which says "I am writing to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I am writing to you, young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I have written to you, children, because you know the Father. I have written to you, fathers, because you know Him who has been from the beginning. I have written to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, and you have overcome the evil one."

When he wrote this, this wasn't meaning "dads" (ie, biological fathers). He is saying this to elders of the faith, those mature in their faith. In the Jewish text, the word is "avot."

Matthew 23:9 makes no distinction between spiritual fathers and biological fathers. This passage is directly pointing to those discrediting the fatherhood of God, which is what the Pharisees and scribes were doing. They wanted all the attention focused on them. They were leaving God, the Father, out of the equation.

And even if you are referring this verse as a ban against calling anyone your spiritual father, then you'll find even more problems in the rest of scripture. For instance, one passage I also highlighted in Luke 16, the rich man was consistently using this term in the spiritual sense of Abraham, not the biological sense. Paul did the same thing in Romans 4 calling him the "Father of the uncircumcised."

In Acts 7, Stephen and Paul referred to the Jewish priests as brothers and fathers.

So if you are regarding Matthew 23:9 as an ban on the term in the spiritual sense, then that means Jesus, Paul, and Stephen all got it wrong.

Calling a priest "father" is imitating the example given to us by Jesus, Paul, and Stephen -- used in the spiritual sense -- as long as we remember that our true father is God, the Father, and that all aspects of our fatherhood are derived from Him.

I can see that you pointed out 1 John its is your biological father, father, young men, and little ones, all in order , I still do not see calling a man father, we are of Abraham seed,

Galatians 3:28-29
King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Show me one example were they call a mortal man father, your examples you have to twist scripture show me clear indefinite scripture I still can not find one.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

I can see that you pointed out 1 John its is your biological father, father, young men, and little ones, all in order , I still do not see calling a man father, we are of Abraham seed,

Galatians 3:28-29
King James Version (KJV)

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Show me one example were they call a mortal man father, your examples you have to twist scripture show me clear indefinite scripture I still can not find one.

Abraham wasn't regarded as father beyond biology. But if you insist on rejecting that one, what about the other verse I put most emphasis on -- 1 John 2:13-14?

And going further than that, how do you account for the meaning of Matthew 23:1-11? What was that passage about?

 

[MichaelH]

1Jn 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father

Jesus said..... Red Letters trump everything. You shall call NO MAN your father, for there is ONE Father in heaven.

There can be no scripture contradictions.

Father Abraham is a title. We are the seed of Abraham and blessed with faithful Abraham. We would not refer to Abraham as Father as nobody would know what the heck we were talking about.

Children and young men as mentioned in John have a father. It's a biological Father.
Children are under their Father and Mother as it is written a man shall leave his Father and Mother no longer bound under them.

Children share the covenant with God that the parents have, for God gave children to men and to raise them.

1Co 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

For the unbelieving husband is set apart (separated, withdrawn from heathen contamination, and affiliated with the Christian people) by union with his consecrated (set-apart) wife, and the unbelieving wife is set apart and separated through union with her consecrated husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean (unblessed heathen, [1] outside the Christian covenant), but as it is they are [2] prepared for God [pure and clean].
(1Co 7:14)

children are only part of the Christian covenant because of the Parents, they do not have the responsibility of to keep the House hold spiritually right with the Father God. The parents do.

Scripture says train your child up early in the way they should go and when they get older they shall not depart from it.
It does not say God trains them up as they have a earthly Father to do so.

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you [the priestly nation] have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you that you shall be no priest to Me; seeing you have forgotten the law of your God, I will also forget your children.
(Hos 4:6)

Children are effect by their earthly Parents the Father and Mother because they don't have that covenant with God.

I think it's pretty clear, to use scripture saying children call a parent Father to disprove what Jesus said is to say children also must answer to God and suffer hell if they are not right with God.

no scripture contradicts and Jesus said...........You shall call no Man your father once God becomes your Father. We don't disobey the Lord and we don't take scriptures out of their setting to prove something.

No child is responsible but before their parents the Word instructs us how to raise that child.

blessings.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Isn't what is being disputed the concept of titles? Wouldn't that alone be a contradiction? Christ didn't contradict himself.

 

[Michael B]

Abraham wasn't regarded as father beyond biology. But if you insist on rejecting that one, what about the other verse I put most emphasis on -- 1 John 2:13-14?

And going further than that, how do you account for the meaning of Matthew 23:1-11? What was that passage about?

Matthew 23:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

It means exactly what it says, that question is trying to disprove other parts of The Word to make other parts of the Bible fit to your ways, in the Bible spiritually the only man to call Father is the Father in heaven, its plain, master, rabbi, its plain, know one else in the Bible is called father, but the Father that is in heaven, I do not know what more to say.

 

[LysanderShapiro]

Matthew 23:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

It means exactly what it says, that question is trying to disprove other parts of The Word to make other parts of the Bible fit to your ways, in the Bible spiritually the only man to call Father is the Father in heaven, its plain, master, rabbi, its plain, know one else in the Bible is called father, but the Father that is in heaven, I do not know what more to say.

It seems you're only going by your own personal interpretation. I'm not going by my own -- I'm going by Church interpretation. Why do you suspect your interpretation is the infallible one?

All you're doing is reposting the same verse over, and over again. This is similar to what the Jehovah's Witness's do in order to justify their claim that Christ was only a man and not divine -- they single out one verse and discredit all the rest.

 

[Michael B]

It seems you're only going by your own personal interpretation. I'm not going by my own -- I'm going by Church interpretation. Why do you suspect your interpretation is the infallible one?

All you're doing is reposting the same verse over, and over again. This is similar to what the Jehovah's Witness's do in order to justify their claim that Christ was only a man and not divine -- they single out one verse and discredit all the rest.

I asked a question of an account when someone in the Bible is called father, an individual, a group or a church, and we are directed to do the same thing, churches are corruptible, The Word of God is forever, in the Old Testament they were priest, that is plain as day, now for the New Covenant were in the Bible does it instruct the follower of Christ to call any mortal man father, that is all I am asking, if a man in an indigenous tribe was handed a Bible never heard of any denomination or any church, were we he see to call the head of the church a father,

John 10:1-18
King James Version (KJV)

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Acts 20:28-30
King James Version (KJV)

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Peter 5:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

5 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

We are the flock of Jesus, so when he the chief Shepard comes for us we either know his voice and are saved or we do not and are lost.

Please reply.

 

[RosaVera]

I asked a question of an account when someone in the Bible is called father, an individual, a group or a church, and we are directed to do the same thing, churches are corruptible, The Word of God is forever, in the Old Testament they were priest, that is plain as day, now for the New Covenant were in the Bible does it instruct the follower of Christ to call any mortal man father, that is all I am asking, if a man in an indigenous tribe was handed a Bible never heard of any denomination or any church, were we he see to call the head of the church a father,

John 10:1-18
King James Version (KJV)

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Acts 20:28-30
King James Version (KJV)

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

1 Peter 5:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

5 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:

2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being examples to the flock.

4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.

We are the flock of Jesus, so when he the chief Shepard comes for us we either know his voice and are saved or we do not and are lost.

Please reply.

i call my parents my mother and father... what do you call yours...? and i would like to ask, why this fixation on not calling your male parents father...? i see lots of non-Catholic churches call their leaders as 'elders', is father any different than calling someone an elder or a rabbi or father...? It is a title of respect for that person, a father or an elder or a rabbi has the responsibility of the flock as does a father has the responsibility of the members of his house.

You keep on insisting on things that almost border on being silly, and please forgive the use of this word, but it seems that the only reason you and the other Michael keep on insisting is because it is a term used they Catholics, and since neither of you like Catholics it stands to reason to see your motives...

We are here to praise and discuss and edify each other, but this going back and forth with the only purpose is to demonize Catholics i wonder what purpose it serves except to fill the seats in your assemblies... and i still do NOT see any Catholic in this forum or other forums bashing your denominations using the same tactics as you two do when bashing Catholics.

 

[RosaVera]

Is there anyone here that thinks that Catholics do not have the Holy Spirit in them, nor devotion and reverence and love for our Lord and savior Jesus the Christ...?

 

[Michael B]

Is there anyone here that thinks that Catholics do not have the Holy Spirit in them, nor devotion and reverence and love for our Lord and savior Jesus the Christ...?

i call my parents my mother and father... what do you call yours...? and i would like to ask, why this fixation on not calling your male parents father...? i see lots of non-Catholic churches call their leaders as 'elders', is father any different than calling someone an elder or a rabbi or father...? It is a title of respect for that person, a father or an elder or a rabbi has the responsibility of the flock as does a father has the responsibility of the members of his house.

You keep on insisting on things that almost border on being silly, and please forgive the use of this word, but it seems that the only reason you and the other Michael keep on insisting is because it is a term used they Catholics, and since neither of you like Catholics it stands to reason to see your motives...

We are here to praise and discuss and edify each other, but this going back and forth with the only purpose is to demonize Catholics i wonder what purpose it serves except to fill the seats in your assemblies... and i still do NOT see any Catholic in this forum or other forums bashing your denominations using the same tactics as you two do when bashing Catholics.

Calling a man spiritually father is in direct disobedience to what The Word of God says that is my point, so is master, so is rabbi, this is what I am trying to put across, I will defend my beliefs on the way I worship Jesus, and it will not be hard because it is straight out of The Word of God, the Bible, no double talk, no distorting verses exactly what it says to do.

 

[Michael B]

Is there anyone here that thinks that Catholics do not have the Holy Spirit in them, nor devotion and reverence and love for our Lord and savior Jesus the Christ...?

What is the number one sign that mortal man had after he was baptized in the spirit, not some, but all, that is speaking in the Heavenly language, tongues. Time and time again all of mortal man baptized in the spirit were speaking in tongues all were not just some, but all.

 

[RosaVera]

Calling a man spiritually father is in direct disobedience to what The Word of God says that is my point, so is master, so is rabbi, this is what I am trying to put across, I will defend my beliefs on the way I worship Jesus, and it will not be hard because it is straight out of The Word of God, the Bible, no double talk no, distorting verses exactly what it says to do.

What do you think our Lord Jesus called his adoptive father...? Do you think that Jesus did anything disrespectful growing up against Joseph and not address him by the name 'father' ... i am curious what do you call your church leaders...? i know growing up in the Catholic faith that we call the priest 'father' not because we put him on a level with God but out of respect for his responsibility over us all, to guide us in the path and love of Christ and to make sure we grow up glorifying God the Father.

 

[RosaVera]

What is the number one sign that mortal man had after he was baptized in the spirit, not some, but all, that is speaking in the Heavenly language, tongues. Time and time again all of mortal man baptized in the spirit were speaking in tongues all were not just some, but all.

So... in your belief is that when a person is reborn unless they speak in tongues then they do not have the HS...? Nor are blessed by God...?

 

[Michael B]

What do you think our Lord Jesus called his adoptive father...? Do you think that Jesus did anything disrespectful growing up against Joseph and not address him by the name 'father' ... i am curious what do you call your church leaders...? i know growing up in the Catholic faith that we call the priest 'father' not because we put him on a level with God but out of respect for his responsibility over us all, to guide us in the path and love of Christ and to make sure we grow up glorifying God the Father.

As far as what Jesus called Joseph I can not say was never written in The Word, at the church I attend the top of the few churches is the bishop, then elders, then pastor, the pastor at the church I go to is the district elder, the pastor and his wife own the building were I go to church so if they do not like what the bishop or the other churches are doing they can turn there license in, they are not told what to preach.