Genesis

Feb 2, 2014
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I love the book of Genesis and I grow more enamored of it as time goes by. I read it again, and think it can't hold any more surprises and discover new levels! As a child, it was my favorite book to stump the adults game (where did Cain & Abel get wives, etc. :^) later as an adult thinking everything was a metaphor to now where I have wandered to breath taking literal. I never would have guessed my educated trail would lead there. Reading thru these 4 pages of humorous, non rancorous. off kilter, and unexpected posts, I'm sorry I missed it.

RE: the Matrix. There are actually people who believe that like in the computer's virtual reality, the world we believe is real is illusion who function according to programming. Whereas, Christians believe that the soul is host to the flesh - in the Matrix, the flesh is the energy needed to uphold the reality, the "soul" is enslaved to the unreality. The 3 Matrix movies are fascinating. But then I adore science fiction - well and science too.

The Jewish apocrypha tells of a first wife to Adam, named Lilith who refused to acquiese to Adam's desire to be on top during intimacies. Lilith left, using the name of God, hooked up with a chief demon and became a demon herself. Apocrypha also indicates that Cain slew Abel because Abel got the sister Cain wanted as a wife.

I like when science appears to agree with scripture. Like the fact that the anatomy of snakes still shows where they used to have legs (grin)...or how 6 days could be seen also as 15 billion yrs.

@Abdicate - I loved your schmi?? erm 7th year rest study. Please let me know too how that comes out. I was born in 1952...

May God bless our ears, eyes, and hearts.
Well, the last trading day of this shmita is 9/11/15... could be a crash, if it follows the last two shmitas. Both 2001 and 2008 crashes fell on 29 Elul and 9/11/15 is 29 Elul 5775. With the blood moons bookending the shmita, seems we're on track for something big. Each unresolved shmita causes the next to get stronger. We'll see. I might end up eating crow, but I don't think so. I believe it's real based on past events.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Anaheim, California
I love the book of Genesis and I grow more enamored of it as time goes by. I read it again, and think it can't hold any more surprises and discover new levels! As a child, it was my favorite book to stump the adults game (where did Cain & Abel get wives, etc. :^) later as an adult thinking everything was a metaphor to now where I have wandered to breath taking literal. I never would have guessed my educated trail would lead there. Reading thru these 4 pages of humorous, non rancorous. off kilter, and unexpected posts, I'm sorry I missed it.

RE: the Matrix. There are actually people who believe that like in the computer's virtual reality, the world we believe is real is illusion who function according to programming. Whereas, Christians believe that the soul is host to the flesh - in the Matrix, the flesh is the energy needed to uphold the reality, the "soul" is enslaved to the unreality. The 3 Matrix movies are fascinating. But then I adore science fiction - well and science too.

The Jewish apocrypha tells of a first wife to Adam, named Lilith who refused to acquiese to Adam's desire to be on top during intimacies. Lilith left, using the name of God, hooked up with a chief demon and became a demon herself. Apocrypha also indicates that Cain slew Abel because Abel got the sister Cain wanted as a wife.

I like when science appears to agree with scripture. Like the fact that the anatomy of snakes still shows where they used to have legs (grin)...or how 6 days could be seen also as 15 billion yrs.

May God bless our ears, eyes, and hearts.
I like that you enjoyed our discussion. You could say I am flattered that ditzy lil' me could entertain anyone.

I don't understand the math in the video. I watched it when it was on another thread, and now I have watched it again.

As of right now I understand that Dr Schroeer divided 15 billion years by a number which must have been 2.5 billion years per day. The video says that his division resulted in a number, .015, which is somehow equivalent to six days.

To Dr Schroeder, I gotta say that I flat out, "Like cowabunga, dude, I don't understand what you said."
 
May 19, 2012
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Rofl...Schroeder is saying, mathmatically, from the perspective at the point of origin, the length of the big bang was 6 days and from the perspective of earth was 15 billion years. The way scientists measure how long the big bang took is from earth perspective. Schroeder indicates that as the big bang went on, it stretched the fabric of space and time. Coincidence that the math proves the 6 days of creation?
 
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GBzone

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I want to read the Bible and post questions about it. To that end, I read Genesis 1, which says that the Earth brought forth grass and the next day God created the greater light. That seems odd because the grass would need the light.

One of my Bible thumping friends says that the greater light represents Jesus, not the sun. I'd like to know if that is a standard interpretation
In most of modern translations Gen 1:1 is translated heavenS . The KJV has it HEAVEN .
In Gen 2:1 all versions have it as heavenS .
If you have heavens in chapter 1 and heavens in chapter 2 you would be misled to think that they are speaking about the same thing.
Before God does any work he brings light .
The light spoken of and indeed the darkness has more to it than purely physical light . For John says and the darkness comprehended it not .
and in all of Genesis chapter 1 everything is good or very good. God said nothing about the darkness .
Another aspect to it is that in the beginning God created the HEAVEN and the EARTH .
It clearly shows that it was not HEAVEN that was in darkness it was the EARTH .
" and the EARTH was without form and void and darkness was upon the face of the deep"
From verse 2 onwards the scriptures are ONLY speaking about the EARTH . Not that heaven.
yet strangely when you go down to about verse 6 (?) the firmament he called HEAVEN .
That heaven is clearly not the heaven of gen 1:1
the other heaven is where the sun moon rest and where he made the stars also . But this is all in the context of the EARTH .

Thus the heavenS of chapter 2 are speaking about the heavenS of EARTH . That is to say ,the heaven where the bids fly and the heaven where the sun and moon and stars are .
For you cannot say (though some versions have it) In the beginning God created the sky and the earth . For where then is heaven?
and what of Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven?
Paul spoke of being in the third heaven .I would suggest that it was the heaven of gen 1:1 .

in Christ
gerald
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Rofl...Schroeder is saying, mathmatically, from the perspective at the point of origin, the length of the big bang was 6 days and from the perspective of earth was 15 billion years. The way scientists measure how long the big bang took is from earth perspective. Schroeder indicates that as the big bang went on, it stretched the fabric of space and time. Coincidence that the math proves the 6 days of creation?
Yes, I understand that he made that claim. He does not say how he knows that the claim is true.
 
May 19, 2012
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Yes, I understand that he made that claim. He does not say how he knows that the claim is true.
Have you never wondered how they (science) determined the age of the universe? I'm not a mathmetician, but Schroeder went back along these mathmatics to the origin source, using time as a dimension. No time, big bang ---->6 days----> everything stretched out 15 billion. After he came out with this they lowered the estimate to 13-14 billion years.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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Have you never wondered how they (science) determined the age of the universe? I'm not a mathmetician, but Schroeder went back along these mathmatics to the origin source, using time as a dimension. No time, big bang ---->6 days----> everything stretched out 15 billion. After he came out with this they lowered the estimate to 13-14 billion years.
Actually, no. but in the eighth grade science book there is a claim and there is an explanation. I don't remember what they are.

I looked at Dr Schroeder's website. It explains his calculation. His equation uses the ratio of temperatures between then and now. I think that he assumes that the apparent time is somehow related to the diameter of the universe, which I suppose is another claim for which he should provide and explanation. The equation does not use the Lorenz transformation or time as a dimension or anything else that I think of as relativity.

If I understand correctly, (cowabunga, that’s a claim :)), he thinks that the expansion is slowing, which I think is backwards to the standard view. If he has that right, he might win a Nobel Prize.
 
May 19, 2012
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I'm not a whiz when it comes to math and I didn't look at his web site...so. If I remember correctly, Big Bang theorists have a specific origin point where a singularity (God) caused the universe/cosmos to begin. They used the speed of light as a constant going outward to determine the age of the uinverse. If they give Schroeder a nobel prize for the universe slowing up, will they take back the one they just gave out a few years ago for the guy who has mathmatically proved that the universe is actually speeding up? (forgot his name and too lazy to google at the moment). What I got from the clip I posted was that Schroeder had shown there was a time difference from the source perspective to that perceived on earth. And the math showed that to be 6 days. When you start talking about time in spiritual terms, I get brain cramps. The latest research suggests that the speed of light may not always be constant and throw in quantum concepts it reaches migraine proportions. None the less, it makes logical sense to me that time perception from A to B would be different from each other. Coincidently that math adds up to 6 days - something that have oral tradition biblically for thousands of years.
 
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String theory has the universe with 11? dimensions, only 4 of which do we have access to (the 4th being time). Some have postulated that before the fall, Adam (man) was clothed in spirit and had access to more dimensions than we do now. For instance Adam/Eve could communicate with animals. Once they ate of the tree, they immediately knew they had changed - they were naked. This suggests that they lost accesses immediately. Where once the spiritual hosted the flesh - now the flesh hosted the spirit. Adam must have noticed the results of Eve's bite before he bit.

Just thinking about it.
 

GBzone

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I'm not a whiz when it comes to math and I didn't look at his web site...so. If I remember correctly, Big Bang theorists have a specific origin point where a singularity (God) caused the universe/cosmos to begin. They used the speed of light as a constant going outward to determine the age of the uinverse. If they give Schroeder a nobel prize for the universe slowing up, will they take back the one they just gave out a few years ago for the guy who has mathmatically proved that the universe is actually speeding up? (forgot his name and too lazy to google at the moment). What I got from the clip I posted was that Schroeder had shown there was a time difference from the source perspective to that perceived on earth. And the math showed that to be 6 days. When you start talking about time in spiritual terms, I get brain cramps. The latest research suggests that the speed of light may not always be constant and throw in quantum concepts it reaches migraine proportions. None the less, it makes logical sense to me that time perception from A to B would be different from each other. Coincidently that math adds up to 6 days - something that have oral tradition biblically for thousands of years.
The so called big.....................................BANG! theory is simply science forced ,compelled , driven and led by the logic of its own reasoning to arrive at the conclusion that every thing started from one point.
But a big ...............................................BANG! is nothing but a balloon pricked with a needle and at best a childs explanation of an explosion which is what they are really describing . But science cannot call it a gigantic explosion because every one with any understanding knows that and explosion is a destructive force not a creative one . Thus it would not nor could be 'accepted ' by calling it what they describe.
The Big Bang theory is but another immaculate conception .That dazzles the imagination but blinds the mind to the truth .
That it was God who in the beginning created the heaven and the earth .
So called (and modern)Science has a universe Godless and man centred .
as religionists had the sun going around the earth and a man centred world .
People should not only read the Bible but believe it . For those religionists would have found that "God sitteth on the circumference of the earth"
and science has a very long way to catch up with God both as to the past and the present and indeed the future.
For the earth is going to stagger like a drunken man . and a third of the stars will fall form the sky and a meteor called Wormwood will fall and pollute a 1/3 of the sea . The moon will become blood red .Which implies something happens to the sun and much more besides.
Science has neither the answer to mans woes nor his own nature . He ahs from the beginning as of Caine lived by his wits and cunning and 'wisdom'
But even as there has been a line descendent from Caine .There is also a righteous line that lived by the revelation and understanding of God .
The generation that perished in the flood believed the wrong message and so did not believe God.
Up to that point it had never rained . The earth being watered by the early morning mist .
It was outside their experience so they dismissed the warning of the preaching of righteousness by Noah for 125 years as too the warning of the Ark that by its size and build showed the 'size' if you will of the coming judgement .
The Cross is the power of God unto them that believe .
But it is foolishness to them that are perishing .
The messengers that brought light and deliverance to Lot brought blindness and destruction to every body else .
The book of Genesis is neither figuerative or a metaphor . If you do not believe Him who inspired them to so write it .How will you ever come to "know Him who is from the beginning"? The time is coming when we need to have our roots as deep as they can go . and to know Him who is form the beginning I do not fully understand .But clearly it must mean the creator . Little children do not know HIm who is from the beginning . Though they indeed know the father and their sins are forgiven.
But we need to be anchored in Him who is from the beginning .
I would suggest that if you do not believe Him who in the beginning created the heaven and the earth and man in his own image . You cant .

in Christ
gerald
 
May 19, 2012
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I don't disagree with much of what @GBzone has posted, however I think the Big Bang theory leads the way toward those of science to seeing there is intelligent design in the creation. It's too bad it is then twisted to say that the intelligence was the "aliens". (smile). I know God created everything with the Word and Holy Spirit. It says so in scripture.
 
Jul 22, 2014
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If I remember correctly, Big Bang theorists have a specific origin point where a singularity (God) caused the universe/cosmos to begin. They used the speed of light as a constant going outward to determine the age of the uinverse. If they give Schroeder a nobel prize for the universe slowing up, will they take back the one they just gave out a few years ago for the guy who has mathmatically proved that the universe is actually speeding up? (forgot his name and too lazy to google at the moment). What I got from the clip I posted was that Schroeder had shown there was a time difference from the source perspective to that perceived on earth. And the math showed that to be 6 days. When you start talking about time in spiritual terms, I get brain cramps. The latest research suggests that the speed of light may not always be constant and throw in quantum concepts it reaches migraine proportions. None the less, it makes logical sense to me that time perception from A to B would be different from each other. Coincidently that math adds up to 6 days - something that have oral tradition biblically for thousands of years.
I think I need to say something right up front. I think that God made the world in six days, and I think the universe is holy-moly-red-rider-hallalujah-brothers-and-sister older than six thousand years. I don't want to argue about it. I'm not here to debate. My only interest is clarity.

I would like to learn about the science, and if in the process that helps people deal with the religion, then cowabunga yal, lets talk about it.

I tried to understand the theory of natural selection, and I received a posting that subtley asked me to stop posting about it. Soooo, I want to avoid getting more postings on the order of, "Ghid, we know you mean well, but why are you posting this?"

As far as I am concerned, the age of the universe is a non-issue for religion because the Pope said so. I don't want to talk about that aspect of religion.

However, I would like to talk about the scinece. Double however, if we are gunna talk about the age of the universe and how the expansion of the universe can distort the appearance of time, maybe we should get permission from the moderators.
 
May 19, 2012
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I understand (now) why the 6,ooo year old cosmos is put forward and I also understand the billions put forth otherwise. Scripture does not specify a time line IMO. I remember reading about how the Jews (long ago) had decided the length of the lunar cycle (29 point something) and how it was determined from when the first moon in creation appeared (mid cycle) and that they had the closest aproximation that had since been calculated. Probably Abdicate can clarify my babble here but it is amazing that they had this for thousands of years and implies early man knew a lot more about such things as a round earth, etc, than we give them credit for. What this all explains to me, is that God could have created the universe with a "back story" and there would be no way of knowing what time had elapsed between A and B. To me the time questions are interesting but not the most important message.
 

GBzone

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No, it's not. If God wants to create the grass before the the sun and stars, I believe he has the power to do so!

I actually enjoy the thought that God deliberately made the lights in the sky before the bodies that "make" them. It's almost like he was thinking "This is for all those atheists who think light comes from matter, when really, it's from me" :)
Actually it does have some bearing on Jesus being the greater light and the church or the Bride being the lesser light .
Though of course its literal meaning is applicable also .
But if you do a search on the sun and the moon. (Jacobs interpretation for instance of Josephs dream) you will see what I mean .Another would be the sus as the bridegroom coming out of his chamber .

in Christ
gerald
 

GBzone

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I don't disagree with much of what @GBzone has posted, however I think the Big Bang theory leads the way toward those of science to seeing there is intelligent design in the creation. It's too bad it is then twisted to say that the intelligence was the "aliens". (smile). I know God created everything with the Word and Holy Spirit. It says so in scripture.
I thought Jesus was the way ? and the only way the truth and the life and no man comes unto the Father accept by Him.
If you start with an error or a lie then you have to uphold that lie or error with another and so on. It will and can only lead to but a lie .
Not the truth .
It is an attempt to have the creation without God . and by inference have man where God should be .For that is where evolution leads to.
As with a lot of other things you will find that those who laid the foundations to modern science were God fearing men at the very least . Yet what is being built on those foundations is another matter . Science as in all other things that does not have God at the centre of it .Becomes corrupt and implodes .Man by wisdom cannot know God . and mans reasoning and intellect in of and by itself is a false light .
In Christ

gerald
 

GBzone

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Actually, no. but in the eighth grade science book there is a claim and there is an explanation. I don't remember what they are.

I looked at Dr Schroeder's website. It explains his calculation. His equation uses the ratio of temperatures between then and now. I think that he assumes that the apparent time is somehow related to the diameter of the universe, which I suppose is another claim for which he should provide and explanation. The equation does not use the Lorenz transformation or time as a dimension or anything else that I think of as relativity.

If I understand correctly, (cowabunga, that’s a claim :)), he thinks that the expansion is slowing, which I think is backwards to the standard view. If he has that right, he might win a Nobel Prize.
I am reminded of those misguided people who researched the times of the Bible and came up with that the earth began on (say) July 15th x number of years ago.
Or in the other direction the Lord is coming on (say) September 21st 2010..
"so called science " is but trying to do much the same.
in Christ
gerald
 
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GB? My position is that God created everything. I was merely pointing out that Big Bang theory does not contradict that.
 
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God is omnipotant, He created the world in his own image.
I think 'light' means like a lamp; it allows us to see.
 

GBzone

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Here is an example of how words in different contexts appear to have different meanings.

I have come a light into the world that whoever believes in Me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)
".........Abide in darkness" . Have as ones home . John 12 46

in Christ
gerald
 

GBzone

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I'm not sure we need to insist the separation of light and darkness is a creative event ie. that it implies some kind of light existed aside from the Sun/stars and that Yahweh performed some action that caused separation. The separation could be poetic language that designates day from night eg.

Gen 1:4-5 KJV And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. (5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

How's this ? Yahweh distinguished the difference between light and dark by naming them day and night.
Be ye separate touch not the unclean thing.
There are the children of light and there are the children of darkness .
What God did in the beginning .He will do in the end .separate those who love God from those who love darkness more than the light . and to the place you love the most that's the place you will find yourself .

Im not sure we should impose our own thinking on scripture . But rather let the scriptures speak for themselves.#For know ye not that Lucifer was once and angel of light?
and God is light remember? How then do you say that there did not exist some kind of light before the Sun and the moon?
If we are not careful we will think God and heaven right out of our thinking .

in Christ
gerald