Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean?

[bobinfaith]

I am not sure that I know of anyone who is more qualified to have this discussion than YOU MM!

Thank you for your Biblical and Christian input!!!

So then, Yes.........Jesus came to seek and save the house of Israel! The blessing of HIs rejection by those He came to save is that now we, Gentiles can be saved!!!

So, God took what was bad and made it good.

Romans 8:28.........
"ALL things work for good for them who are called by God"!

The 144 K will be Jewish, virgin men. They will be saved right after the Rapture by the preaching of Two Jewish Rabies in Jerusalem.

This is important to grasp because at that time there will be NO Church on the earth.

It has been prophesied in the Bible that Israel would repent and turn to Christ in Zech. 12:10 and Romans 11:25-27, and the 144,000 Jews seem to be a sort of “first fruits” as seen in Rev. 14:4 of that redeemed Israel.

By “Israel” Paul means ethnic Israelites (Jews). For Paul the world was divided into two types of people: Israel and everybody else (Gentiles). And according to Paul, Israel comprises the people God set apart for himself, made promises to, established covenants with, and entrusted with his law (Rom. 9:1–5). They are Abraham’s descendants—not every last one, but those freely chosen by God’s mercy, like Isaac and Jacob (Rom. 9:6–13), and Paul (Rom. 11:1).

That does NOT mean that every person in Israel will be saved!!!!

Eventually all Israel–both Jewish remnant and hardened majority–will be saved (though see Paul’s clarifying remarks in Romans 9:6, when he basically says, “Yes, yes…. You’ve got the math right. Just remember, it won’t include every member of that hardened majority.”

The Church is the intended Bride of Christ and the 144 K and all who are saved after the Rapture are not part of the Church.

The coming great Revival in the last 7 years will primarily be Jews and those who have never heard the gospel.

Contextually, 2 Thess. 2: 10-12 is speaking of the coming A/C and it seems to confirm this when we read.............
"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. "

In other words, IF a man has read the gospel and not made a choice for Jesus Christ today, he will not then be able to do so after the Rapture! He will believe the lie of Satan.

Somewhere, someplace there is that ONE person who God has ordained to be saved and when that happens......It is over and we who are believers go home!

Hello Major;

Thank you for supporting Musicmaster and your response to my questions for them.

God bless you, brother.

 

[Musicmaster]

Hello Prim90 and Musicmaster;

I have been following Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean? and came across your posts# 14, 15, 16 and 17.

As I'm reading your posts I don't feel you are answering each other's posts, instead, you both continue to offer long explanations of grafting between Jews and Gentiles. How does the 144,000 tie in specifically to this discussion?

I have a question for sake of staying on topic, I'm not a Jew, so in these times, am I identified as a Gentile? How does this impact my proclamation as a Christian?

I have my observant side but I'm also participating in the fellowship as a constructive reader.

Prim90, why do your posts have large pink blocks? What does that mean, sister?

MM, after stating the many points in your topic, is there a summation?

God bless you both and thank you for sharing.

Bob

It's because I didn't understand all her points. I look for coherence and continuity, and when it's not there, there's a lack for clarity to aid in HOW to answer all the points. So, I restate my initial points in the hopes that there is clarification in the ensuing posts to help me out in understanding. That's with many posts I've come across, not just Prim90.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The conclusion, overall, is in the video, which I posted as the better way to explain it. An understanding as to WHAT Gentiles are grafted into is the thrust of this thread. Many people think it's the genetic pool of Israel, which is what Paul stated is not the case since all who are "of Israel" are not "Israel." That would apply to me before I was born again.

Although the Lord has amazing plans for the blood lineage of Israel, only those remaining 1/3rd who are left at the point Christ returns at His Second Coming, only THEY are the "all" in the statement of "...all Israel shall be saved." My former wife was of the opinion that ALL bloodline Jews were saved by association, which I could never seem to break loose in her mind. She was one who took scripture far too literally at times. When I asked her what her reaction would be if I went out and had an affair, she, of course, indicated divorce court, to which I responded that, hey, I'm of Israeli dissent, and am therefore saved no matter what...so how could I do so wrong for her to condemn me through divorce...

Needless to say, no matter what manner of rightly dividing the word of God was applied, I was unable to shatter that glass bubble.

So, it's important for all true believers to understand what it is into which they are grafted. Rob did such a fantastic job at laying the foundations for his conclusion, that I didn't think spelling out the conclusion was necessary.

As to the 144,000, they are clearly bloodline Jews. The etherealization of population lacked merit when we consider the broader scope of the prophets, the epistles and Reveation.

MM

 

[Major]

It's because I didn't understand all her points. I look for coherence and continuity, and when it's not there, there's a lack for clarity to aid in HOW to answer all the points. So, I restate my initial points in the hopes that there is clarification in the ensuing posts to help me out in understanding. That's with many posts I've come across, not just Prim90.

MM

Well said brother!

 

[Major]

The conclusion, overall, is in the video, which I posted as the better way to explain it. An understanding as to WHAT Gentiles are grafted into is the thrust of this thread. Many people think it's the genetic pool of Israel, which is what Paul stated is not the case since all who are "of Israel" are not "Israel." That would apply to me before I was born again.

Although the Lord has amazing plans for the blood lineage of Israel, only those remaining 1/3rd who are left at the point Christ returns at His Second Coming, only THEY are the "all" in the statement of "...all Israel shall be saved." My former wife was of the opinion that ALL bloodline Jews were saved by association, which I could never seem to break loose in her mind. She was one who took scripture far too literally at times. When I asked her what her reaction would be if I went out and had an affair, she, of course, indicated divorce court, to which I responded that, hey, I'm of Israeli dissent, and am therefore saved no matter what...so how could I do so wrong for her to condemn me through divorce...

Needless to say, no matter what manner of rightly dividing the word of God was applied, I was unable to shatter that glass bubble.

So, it's important for all true believers to understand what it is into which they are grafted. Rob did such a fantastic job at laying the foundations for his conclusion, that I didn't think spelling out the conclusion was necessary.

As to the 144,000, they are clearly bloodline Jews. The etherealization of population lacked merit when we consider the broader scope of the prophets, the epistles and Reveation.

MM

Yep.

I see NO reason to not accept what the Bible literally says! 144,000 Messianic Jews chosen from the 12 tribes of Israel!

 

[Major]

Hello Major;

Thank you for supporting Musicmaster and your response to my questions for them.

God bless you, brother.

He sends me a love offering every time I support his posts!

Another year or so and I can retire......again!

 

[bobinfaith]

The conclusion, overall, is in the video, which I posted as the better way to explain it. So, it's important for all true believers to understand what it is into which they are grafted. Rob did such a fantastic job at laying the foundations for his conclusion, that I didn't think spelling out the conclusion was necessary. As to the 144,000, they are clearly bloodline Jews. The etherealization of population lacked merit when we consider the broader scope of the prophets, the epistles and Reveation.
MM

Hello Prim90 and Musicmaster;

I have been following Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean? and came across your posts# 14, 15, 16 and 17.

As I'm reading your posts I don't feel you are answering each other's posts, instead, you both continue to offer long explanations of grafting between Jews and Gentiles. How does the 144,000 tie in specifically to this discussion?

I have a question for sake of staying on topic, I'm not a Jew, so in these times, am I identified as a Gentile? How does this impact my proclamation as a Christian?

I have my observant side but I'm also participating in the fellowship as a constructive reader.

Prim90, why do your posts have large pink blocks? What does that mean, sister?

MM, after stating the many points in your topic, is there a summation?

God bless you both and thank you for sharing.

Bob

Hello Musicmaster;

Yes, the video did it's presentation. I would have much rather heard from your thoughts and writing, brother, regarding my question to you and Prim90.

Thank you for responding and I'll wait to hear from Prim90.

God bless you, MM, and your family.

 

[Prim90]

Hello Musicmaster;

Yes, the video did it's presentation. I would have much rather heard from your thoughts and writing, brother, regarding my question to you and Prim90.

Thank you for responding and I'll wait to hear from Prim90.

God bless you, MM, and your family.

Bob I hope you well.. I’ve always agreed with MM that Christ be the vine . And that we be merely the branches natural or wild. Not that this really matters anymore natural or wild. We all be one in Christ. But we do part ways as I do with many on here who hold to the view. That there be two seperate compartments one the Holy Church and for other Judaism with differing destinations in the future abode. Now there be good reason why me keeps placing great emphasis on the make up of the the early church because it almost consisted of JewsVif not entirely of Jews. The question arises why would any Jew choose to convert to Christianity if Judaism is accepted as part of Gods continuing future salvation plan . Actually we would have no New Testament if Matthew, Luke and the apostle Paul and other Jewish writers had heeded this advice. Bob it is abundantly clear that many in Judaism saw the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the final sacrifice rendering the temple rituals and sacrifices null and void and the very reason why many from Judaism transitioned from Judaism into the church. The Holy Church now be the Israel of God regardless of race. Galatians 6:16 ( And as many as walk according to this rule ,peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the ISRAEL of God ) And for those who contend for a 2nd people and a future temple . And to the many Ben Judea’s here today. The Holy Church does look down upon you now. And does gently remind you all to deeply reflect upon 70 AD should you have the audacity to rebuild another.

 

[Prim90]

Hello Prim90 and Musicmaster;

I have been following Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean? and came across your posts# 14, 15, 16 and 17.

As I'm reading your posts I don't feel you are answering each other's posts, instead, you both continue to offer long explanations of grafting between Jews and Gentiles. How does the 144,000 tie in specifically to this discussion?

I have a question for sake of staying on topic, I'm not a Jew, so in these times, am I identified as a Gentile? How does this impact my proclamation as a Christian?

I have my observant side but I'm also participating in the fellowship as a constructive reader.

Prim90, why do your posts have large pink blocks? What does that mean, sister?

MM, after stating the many points in your topic, is there a summation?

God bless you both and thank you for sharing.

Bob

Bob the Major used to always ping me and remind about about long replies with no spacing. The spacing doesn’t seen work on my phone. But on computer just fine . So I accomodate with a white strip sometimes pink perhaps next time blue

 

[Prim90]

Salvation is of the Jews, and our rejection of Messiah as an ethnic people became a blessing to Gentiles.

When reading Revelation, I became aware of the 24 elders, who are very much attuned to the twelve gates and the twelve foundation stones of the New Jerusalem. They represent the Jews of ancient times up to the time of Christ on the cross, and Jews and Gentiles alike after the cross who comprise the Church up to the point of the beginning of the Tribulation. Those who come to faith after the beginning of the Tribulation do not have crowns as to all who were in Christ before the Tribulation.

So, if we dare study the various representations of what it means to talk about who is Israel, seeking to understand what it means for Jews and Gentiles to be grafted in, reading Paul's lengthy dissertation about the subject, we become aware of the fact that what it means to be Israel, in relation to being in Christ, isn't the same thing as becoming a descendent of the man renamed Israel. Does that make sense?

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Paul had a passion for the ethnic people descended from Israel, the man, but because of their rejection, they are not of Israel just because they are physically descended from Israel. That's the point he is making in Romans 9. The grafting in has a meaning that is multifaceted. Gentiles become partakers of the blessings that flowed down from Abraham, just as they are partakers of the inheritance of Christ, just as are the ethnic Jews. Gentiles, through Christ, became grafted in among the natural branches, even though they still remain identified as wild branches after the grafting in. There remains a distinction.

And yet, we are also told this, to the confusion of many:

Romans 10:11-13
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, in salvation, there are no distinctions, but in that New Jerusalem, there is no representation of the Gentiles in the construction and naming upon that city.

So, in summary, in one sense, there are no distinctions, and in other perspectives, the distinctives remain forever. The many deliverances the Lord performed for ancient Israel throughout her history were not for the sake of Israel, but for the sake of the Lord's own Name. That theme is repeated many times throughout the prophets, for Israel continuously rebelled, time after time, committing idolatry, adultery, and profaning the name of the Lord in her actions, constantly betraying the obedience to the Law they promised that they would obey.

How wonderful it is that there was a change in priesthood, and therefore a change in the Law.

MM

MM you mention the 24 elders and the twelve foundation stones and twelve gates representing the Jews of ancient times you also mention the physical difference and ethnicity of being Jewish. and that being some different in connection to salvation where there be no difference between Jew nor Greek. Culturally yes our cultures maybe some different .But as to matter of fertility. Physics does tell us that the chemical mix for the elixir of life is the same all over the world . Some a little saltier than others but nether the less still the same chemicals the world over when it comes to the seed of life. How did John the Baptist think upon such things ? We have our answer in Matthew 3:9 ( And think not to say within yourselves. We have Abraham to our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children of Abraham) MM according to Galatians 3:16 the promises of Abraham find their fulfilment not in a piece of land nor a race of people but though Christ in which all nations would be blessed ( Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not to seeds, as many but as of one. And to thy seed, which is Christ. So in conclusion when thinking upon the New Jerusalem being ethically exclusive to Jews only. How would that work ? Are their resurrection bodies some different from a gentiles ? No . It be the same resurrection body for all. The New heavenly Jerusalem shall be enjoyed by the entirety and fullness of the Israel of God. Be that ancient the present or the future. The Israel of God does encompass all. The Israel of God be a universal people a universal faith.

 

[Musicmaster]

...And that we be merely the branches natural or wild. Not that this really matters anymore natural or wild. We all be one in Christ.

This is the part of what you have somewhat talked about that I don't think has the clarity necessary for addressing to the extent that you and others will understand. When we take unrelated portions of the imagery within scripture, mix and stir it all up into an indistinguishable mass of goo, then it lacks the distinctiveness needed for understanding.

Perhaps another way of explaining this is in order: When we take one concept, and then relate it to another concept that is not related, that creates confusion.

Where it is true that ALL of humanity that is in Christ are not distinguished any longer, in that there is no Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor freeman... Yes. However, in this earth, in this reality, God is not finished with ethnic Israel. The fact that the New Jerusalem, after this world is long gone and burned up, has the names of the twelve tribes on each of the twelve gates, the distinctive of Israel and her role throughout history in possessing, as their stewardship, all that pointed to Christ, it's all about Christ and His magnification of those twelve tribes. They are important to the Lord, given what He went through to redeem all of mankind who would call upon His name.

So, given that the Lord maintains the distinction in that there will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes who comprise the witnesses with the seal of God on them, they will succeed in the greatest evangelistic movement this world has ever seen. It will put to shame all the events put on by Billy Graham and all the other TV evangelists combined. Those Jewish men will serve the Lord to the end, bringing to faith a mass of converts who, although are not wearing crowns as is the Church and the ancients from before the Church was established all the way up to the snatching up, they will have white robes and will be holding palm branches, serving the Lord ins a special capacity of His choosing in eternity.

So, there are still distinctives to this very day and beyond, and there are distinctives that will continue in Heaven and on the new earth throughout all of eternity. Why?

Simply stated...it ALL points to Christ Jesus, and magnifies His glory over all. It's ALL about Him. It is His Light that will fill eternity, not a created star as we have in this reality.

So, Prim90, the lack of distinction for all who are in Christ has only to do with the equality we all have for salvation, with none being more deserving than any other, for we were ALL lost sheep, having been born in sin, and therefore lost to the uttermost until the new birth of each. THAT is where the lack of distinction ends, because in this world and in eternity to come, there are still going to be distinctions, whether we like that thought in this life or not. There will be great distinction in rewards. Some will have little to no reward, while others will have GREAT reward. Jesus even stated that there will be those who are called "least" in Heaven, and yet who will be greater than the greatest man who ever lived during this life on this earth, born among women and an earthly father.

But we do part ways as I do with many on here who hold to the view. That there be two seperate compartments one the Holy Church and for other Judaism with differing destinations in the future abode.

You brought up Judaism. That has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in eschatology, except that the Lord is going to allow 2/3 of the ethnic and orthodox Jews to be wiped out before He makes His appearance for His Second Coming. Judaism is long dead in its continued rejection of Christ, even though the people will play an important, distinctive role in events yet to come. The change in the priesthood came a change in the Law, and so Judaism has no legs upon which to stand since the fulfillment has already been accomplished.

Continual attempts at living the Law are dead efforts, and therefore bring to the adherent no benefit whatsoever. Judaism is therefore totally dead and of no eternal value to any man.

The question arises why would any Jew choose to convert to Christianity if Judaism is accepted as part of Gods continuing future salvation plan . Actually we would have no New Testament if Matthew, Luke and the apostle Paul and other Jewish writers had heeded this advice.

Jews MUST accept Christ, not Christianity, but Christ, for their salvation. The requirements in the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ, and any follower of Judaism has no hope apart from the new birth that comes only through Christ Jesus as Messiah. Jews who believe in Christ as Messiah as no longer a part of Judaism. They are what is called "Messianic Jews."

MM

 

[Major]

This is the part of what you have somewhat talked about that I don't think has the clarity necessary for addressing to the extent that you and others will understand. When we take unrelated portions of the imagery within scripture, mix and stir it all up into an indistinguishable mass of goo, then it lacks the distinctiveness needed for understanding.

Perhaps another way of explaining this is in order: When we take one concept, and then relate it to another concept that is not related, that creates confusion.

Where it is true that ALL of humanity that is in Christ are not distinguished any longer, in that there is no Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor freeman... Yes. However, in this earth, in this reality, God is not finished with ethnic Israel. The fact that the New Jerusalem, after this world is long gone and burned up, has the names of the twelve tribes on each of the twelve gates, the distinctive of Israel and her role throughout history in possessing, as their stewardship, all that pointed to Christ, it's all about Christ and His magnification of those twelve tribes. They are important to the Lord, given what He went through to redeem all of mankind who would call upon His name.

So, given that the Lord maintains the distinction in that there will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes who comprise the witnesses with the seal of God on them, they will succeed in the greatest evangelistic movement this world has ever seen. It will put to shame all the events put on by Billy Graham and all the other TV evangelists combined. Those Jewish men will serve the Lord to the end, bringing to faith a mass of converts who, although are not wearing crowns as is the Church and the ancients from before the Church was established all the way up to the snatching up, they will have white robes and will be holding palm branches, serving the Lord ins a special capacity of His choosing in eternity.

So, there are still distinctives to this very day and beyond, and there are distinctives that will continue in Heaven and on the new earth throughout all of eternity. Why?

Simply stated...it ALL points to Christ Jesus, and magnifies His glory over all. It's ALL about Him. It is His Light that will fill eternity, not a created star as we have in this reality.

So, Prim90, the lack of distinction for all who are in Christ has only to do with the equality we all have for salvation, with none being more deserving than any other, for we were ALL lost sheep, having been born in sin, and therefore lost to the uttermost until the new birth of each. THAT is where the lack of distinction ends, because in this world and in eternity to come, there are still going to be distinctions, whether we like that thought in this life or not. There will be great distinction in rewards. Some will have little to no reward, while others will have GREAT reward. Jesus even stated that there will be those who are called "least" in Heaven, and yet who will be greater than the greatest man who ever lived during this life on this earth, born among women and an earthly father.



You brought up Judaism. That has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in eschatology, except that the Lord is going to allow 2/3 of the ethnic and orthodox Jews to be wiped out before He makes His appearance for His Second Coming. Judaism is long dead in its continued rejection of Christ, even though the people will play an important, distinctive role in events yet to come. The change in the priesthood came a change in the Law, and so Judaism has no legs upon which to stand since the fulfillment has already been accomplished.

Continual attempts at living the Law are dead efforts, and therefore bring to the adherent no benefit whatsoever. Judaism is therefore totally dead and of no eternal value to any man.



Jews MUST accept Christ, not Christianity, but Christ, for their salvation. The requirements in the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ, and any follower of Judaism has no hope apart from the new birth that comes only through Christ Jesus as Messiah. Jews who believe in Christ as Messiah as no longer a part of Judaism. They are what is called "Messianic Jews."

MM

Isn't it telling that the Christ is Jewish, the 24 elders are the representatives of the 12 Jewish Tribes and the 12 Apostles were Jewish.
All of that in a New City called New Jerusalem?

See a pattern here!

Prime90 asked you..........
(1)"The question arises why would any Jew choose to convert to Christianity if Judaism is accepted as part of Gods continuing future salvation plan .
(2) Actually we would have no New Testament if Matthew, Luke and the apostle Paul and other Jewish writers had heeded this advice."

1st..........WHY, because God said that to be saved from sin and have a home in heaven, ALL must come to and accept the Lord Jesus Christ.

2nd.......Not applicable in any way as the fact is they all did exactly as Jesus instructed them and commissioned them to do.

 

[bobinfaith]

Bob the Major used to always ping me and remind about about long replies with no spacing. The spacing doesn’t seen work on my phone. But on computer just fine . So I accomodate with a white strip sometimes pink perhaps next time blue

MM you mention the 24 elders and the twelve foundation stones and twelve gates representing the Jews of ancient times you also mention the physical difference and ethnicity of being Jewish. and that being some different in connection to salvation where there be no difference between Jew nor Greek. Culturally yes our cultures maybe some different .But as to matter of fertility. Physics does tell us that the chemical mix for the elixir of life is the same all over the world . Some a little saltier than others but nether the less still the same chemicals the world over when it comes to the seed of life. How did John the Baptist think upon such things ? We have our answer in Matthew 3:9 ( And think not to say within yourselves. We have Abraham to our father. For I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children of Abraham) MM according to Galatians 3:16 the promises of Abraham find their fulfilment not in a piece of land nor a race of people but though Christ in which all nations would be blessed ( Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not to seeds, as many but as of one. And to thy seed, which is Christ. So in conclusion when thinking upon the New Jerusalem being ethically exclusive to Jews only. How would that work ? Are their resurrection bodies some different from a gentiles ? No . It be the same resurrection body for all. The New heavenly Jerusalem shall be enjoyed by the entirety and fullness of the Israel of God. Be that ancient the present or the future. The Israel of God does encompass all. The Israel of God be a universal people a universal faith.

Hello Prim90;

Thank you for explaining the reason for spacing with the pink blocks. I know many members use their cell phones to post at CFS. I tried it overseas last year and it is hard to space. Now I understand you. By the way, Blue is good.

It's always good to see you here and thank you for your post, sister. Keep writing.

God bless you, Prim90, and your family.

 

[Musicmaster]

Ezekiel 36:22-32
22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that [were] not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32 Not for your sakes do I [this], saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

Israel is now a nation of people not under the rule of any other for more than 2600 years, beginning in 1948. Her cleanness is yet to come, for she is still yet corrupt and living in sinful pride and celebrating perversions within her borders. The cleansing will come at a price, which is the wiping out of 2/3rds of all the Jews left in Jerusalem before the remainder finally looks upon He whom they had pierced, and mourn as if for a first born son...

So much could go into this, and so little time to say it all...

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

The above ties into the topic of grating nicely, but one needs the eyes to see, having studied what is to come...the words of our Lord as spoken by Himself, and those spoken through His prophets and His apostles. Please, do not be afraid of prophecy, especially of Revelation. Why so many fear the Revelation of Christ Jesus, I have no idea...especially after you read the very first verse of that book. Read that verse, and then pray, and He will open your eyes if you are serious about learning of Him.

MM

 

[Prim90]

This is the part of what you have somewhat talked about that I don't think has the clarity necessary for addressing to the extent that you and others will understand. When we take unrelated portions of the imagery within scripture, mix and stir it all up into an indistinguishable mass of goo, then it lacks the distinctiveness needed for understanding.

Perhaps another way of explaining this is in order: When we take one concept, and then relate it to another concept that is not related, that creates confusion.

Where it is true that ALL of humanity that is in Christ are not distinguished any longer, in that there is no Jew nor Gentile, male nor female, slave nor freeman... Yes. However, in this earth, in this reality, God is not finished with ethnic Israel. The fact that the New Jerusalem, after this world is long gone and burned up, has the names of the twelve tribes on each of the twelve gates, the distinctive of Israel and her role throughout history in possessing, as their stewardship, all that pointed to Christ, it's all about Christ and His magnification of those twelve tribes. They are important to the Lord, given what He went through to redeem all of mankind who would call upon His name.

So, given that the Lord maintains the distinction in that there will be 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes who comprise the witnesses with the seal of God on them, they will succeed in the greatest evangelistic movement this world has ever seen. It will put to shame all the events put on by Billy Graham and all the other TV evangelists combined. Those Jewish men will serve the Lord to the end, bringing to faith a mass of converts who, although are not wearing crowns as is the Church and the ancients from before the Church was established all the way up to the snatching up, they will have white robes and will be holding palm branches, serving the Lord ins a special capacity of His choosing in eternity.

So, there are still distinctives to this very day and beyond, and there are distinctives that will continue in Heaven and on the new earth throughout all of eternity. Why?

Simply stated...it ALL points to Christ Jesus, and magnifies His glory over all. It's ALL about Him. It is His Light that will fill eternity, not a created star as we have in this reality.

So, Prim90, the lack of distinction for all who are in Christ has only to do with the equality we all have for salvation, with none being more deserving than any other, for we were ALL lost sheep, having been born in sin, and therefore lost to the uttermost until the new birth of each. THAT is where the lack of distinction ends, because in this world and in eternity to come, there are still going to be distinctions, whether we like that thought in this life or not. There will be great distinction in rewards. Some will have little to no reward, while others will have GREAT reward. Jesus even stated that there will be those who are called "least" in Heaven, and yet who will be greater than the greatest man who ever lived during this life on this earth, born among women and an earthly father.



You brought up Judaism. That has nothing whatsoever to do with anything in eschatology, except that the Lord is going to allow 2/3 of the ethnic and orthodox Jews to be wiped out before He makes His appearance for His Second Coming. Judaism is long dead in its continued rejection of Christ, even though the people will play an important, distinctive role in events yet to come. The change in the priesthood came a change in the Law, and so Judaism has no legs upon which to stand since the fulfillment has already been accomplished.

Continual attempts at living the Law are dead efforts, and therefore bring to the adherent no benefit whatsoever. Judaism is therefore totally dead and of no eternal value to any man.



Jews MUST accept Christ, not Christianity, but Christ, for their salvation. The requirements in the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled in Christ, and any follower of Judaism has no hope apart from the new birth that comes only through Christ Jesus as Messiah. Jews who believe in Christ as Messiah as no longer a part of Judaism. They are what is called "Messianic Jews."

MM

MM when thinking upon your words of ( when we take unrelated portions of imagery within scripture and stir it up into a indistinguishable mass of goo than it lacks the distinctiveness for understanding. MM do you think I’m doing that? firstly I agreed with you in that Christ is the true vine. No people’s can have eternal life whether they be from the natural or wild branch if they not be connected to the vine of Christ.. it was not me that brought the 144000 into the discussion to add to the goo mix that you mentioned. I don’t make goo by the way. I’m a rather good cook : ) You say Jews must believe Jesus Christ but not Christianity ? MM that is general term that that believers have gone under since the book of acts . We were known by others names such as Brethren, disciples, the way, Saints. But seems that Christos won the day. We Kinda of liked the term and how it was used to mock followers of the Jesus. We happily accepted the name as a badge of honour. so as Christians we did became predominantly known. MM you say the early church became Messianic Jews. Are you sure I can’t find that term in early church history. Actually it be a very modern term introduced in the early 60’s and 70’s with groups such as Jews for Jesus. There be many different branch’s of these Messianic Jews, they have a very popular and strong following today. But from what I have read the early Christians were not known by that name . You ask do I bring up Judaism. Absolutely. Yes. MM how could one not not bring up Judaism? For it be a very doctrinal matter and also a eschatology matter . Whilst they may be spiritually dead Judaism is alive and well their ferocious animosity towards Jesus and Christians has never changed from the time they used to hunt Christians down like wild animals all through the book of Acts. MM Rome isn’t the only place that the blood the Saints crieth out. As to the word distinction the meaning Is extremely flexible and I’m uncomfortable with it. Class and race distinction does come to mind as a possibility and this is.what concerns me greatly in setting Jew and gentile into two different categories. Christ destroyed the wall of partition for Jew and Gentile alike. The reason we are all now called the Israel of God and belong to God. MM yes the Bible does talk of many rewards. I have my reward. The greatest reward I ever received was from HIM that first loved us whilst we were sinners. Who loved us to the very end up on a cross one Friday. That is the only reward I need MM again we come to issue of the 144000 Jews . Where does it mention 144000 Jews evangelising the entire world. It doesn’t. And this reeks of racial superiority as it bears its ugly head . So what of Jew and and gentile who have preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and evangelised the world for 2000 yrs. you say the boys from Zion are really gunna rock the world. You say bigger than Billy Graham. I think his crusade in South Korea was over a million people. The ancestors do discuss it from time to time. But Bigger than the entirety of what the church has done over 2000 yrs ? I think the doctrine goes something like this. Something with belief also goes hand in hand with the mid tribulation rapture of the Church and the Holy Spirit being wizzed off into outer space preferably to the Pluto if our Zionist friends had their way . And so the greatest evangelisation of the world begins . And without the Holy Spirit present as well. : ) A miracle bigger than Ben Hur indeed : ) . MM Maybe a mixture of Schofield & Darby Scotch whisky really makes for a wild night when flipping through the pages of Revelations . I’m still wondering how this 144000 could be the first fruits of the lord when it seems this would make them the last fruits and not the First. After all this would place them near the end of all things would not

 

[Prim90]

Isn't it telling that the Christ is Jewish, the 24 elders are the representatives of the 12 Jewish Tribes and the 12 Apostles were Jewish.
All of that in a New City called New Jerusalem?

See a pattern here!

Prime90 asked you..........
(1)"The question arises why would any Jew choose to convert to Christianity if Judaism is accepted as part of Gods continuing future salvation plan .
(2) Actually we would have no New Testament if Matthew, Luke and the apostle Paul and other Jewish writers had heeded this advice."

1st..........WHY, because God said that to be saved from sin and have a home in heaven, ALL must come to and accept the Lord Jesus Christ.

2nd.......Not applicable in any way as the fact is they all did exactly as Jesus instructed them and commissioned them to do.

Not applicable? Major It seems many mainline Christian denominations are of the opinion that there is no need to preach the gospels of Jesus unto the Jewish ones any more because they are under a different plan and different dispensation with God. So it is happening before our very eyes. It’s applicable all right

 

[Dave F.]

Prim the 144,000 are mentioned in the book of Revelation. They are a kind of first fruits because they are the first after the rapture of the church to believe and accept Jesus as their savior and lord and after they are sealed by God they will then go and share this with all that remain on the earth. There are 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
As for Jew and Greek, I think the separation is from where they came, for once we are grafted into the true vine of Christ we are then His and are no longer what we were, but, rather something altogether new. We see another separation between those who were raptured and the tribulation saints who come to salvation after. This is the crowns or rewards that are given.

 

[Major]

The above ties into the topic of grating nicely, but one needs the eyes to see, having studied what is to come...the words of our Lord as spoken by Himself, and those spoken through His prophets and His apostles. Please, do not be afraid of prophecy, especially of Revelation. Why so many fear the Revelation of Christ Jesus, I have no idea...especially after you read the very first verse of that book. Read that verse, and then pray, and He will open your eyes if you are serious about learning of Him.

MM

Revelation 1:3...........
" Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

 

[Major]

MM when thinking upon your words of ( when we take unrelated portions of imagery within scripture and stir it up into a indistinguishable mass of goo than it lacks the distinctiveness for understanding. MM do you think I’m doing that? firstly I agreed with you in that Christ is the true vine. No people’s can have eternal life whether they be from the natural or wild branch if they not be connected to the vine of Christ.. it was not me that brought the 144000 into the discussion to add to the goo mix that you mentioned. I don’t make goo by the way. I’m a rather good cook : ) View attachment 10402 You say Jews must believe Jesus Christ but not Christianity ? MM that is general term that that believers have gone under since the book of acts . We were known by others names such as Brethren, disciples, the way, Saints. But seems that Christos won the day. We Kinda of liked the term and how it was used to mock followers of the Jesus. We happily accepted the name as a badge of honour. so as Christians we did became predominantly known. MM you say the early church became Messianic Jews. Are you sure I can’t find that term in early church history. Actually it be a very modern term introduced in the early 60’s and 70’s with groups such as Jews for Jesus. There be many different branch’s of these Messianic Jews, they have a very popular and strong following today. But from what I have read the early Christians were not known by that name . View attachment 10402 You ask do I bring up Judaism. Absolutely. Yes. MM how could one not not bring up Judaism? For it be a very doctrinal matter and also a eschatology matter . Whilst they may be spiritually dead Judaism is alive and well their ferocious animosity towards Jesus and Christians has never changed from the time they used to hunt Christians down like wild animals all through the book of Acts. MM Rome isn’t the only place that the blood the Saints crieth out. View attachment 10402 As to the word distinction the meaning Is extremely flexible and I’m uncomfortable with it. Class and race distinction does come to mind as a possibility and this is.what concerns me greatly in setting Jew and gentile into two different categories. Christ destroyed the wall of partition for Jew and Gentile alike. The reason we are all now called the Israel of God and belong to God. MM yes the Bible does talk of many rewards. I have my reward. The greatest reward I ever received was from HIM that first loved us whilst we were sinners. Who loved us to the very end up on a cross one Friday. That is the only reward I need View attachment 10402 MM again we come to issue of the 144000 Jews . Where does it mention 144000 Jews evangelising the entire world. It doesn’t. And this reeks of racial superiority as it bears its ugly head . So what of Jew and and gentile who have preached the gospel of Jesus Christ and evangelised the world for 2000 yrs. you say the boys from Zion are really gunna rock the world. You say bigger than Billy Graham. I think his crusade in South Korea was over a million people. The ancestors do discuss it from time to time. But Bigger than the entirety of what the church has done over 2000 yrs ? I think the doctrine goes something like this. Something with belief also goes hand in hand with the mid tribulation rapture of the Church and the Holy Spirit being wizzed off into outer space preferably to the Pluto if our Zionist friends had their way . And so the greatest evangelisation of the world begins . And without the Holy Spirit present as well. : ) A miracle bigger than Ben Hur indeed : ) . MM Maybe a mixture of Schofield & Darby Scotch whisky really makes for a wild night when flipping through the pages of Revelations . I’m still wondering how this 144000 could be the first fruits of the lord when it seems this would make them the last fruits and not the First. After all this would place them near the end of all things would not

You said............
"Where does it mention 144000 Jews evangelising the entire world. It doesn’t."

When we read the Scriptures with CONTEXT in our minds we see that their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period.

Rev. 7:9 .....
"After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,".

"AFTER THIS" means the events in verses 1-6. Then we see in verse #7 a great revival takes place. The ONLY interpretation that is acceptable is that the 144 K are the ones who do the evangelizing!

As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” ( Rev. 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.