MM when thinking upon your words of ( when we take unrelated portions of imagery within scripture and stir it up into a indistinguishable mass of goo than it lacks the distinctiveness for understanding. MM do you think I’m doing that? firstly I agreed with you in that Christ is the true vine. No people’s can have eternal life whether they be from the natural or wild branch if they not be connected to the vine of Christ.. it was not me that brought the 144000 into the discussion to add to the goo mix that you mentioned. I don’t make goo by the way. I’m a rather good cook : )
Rather than for me to belabor the point, as I recall, your post threw in elements that were not directly relatable to the thrust of your writing, but that also may be my own lack of understanding as to your meaning for the use of those elements. So, we continue...
You say Jews must believe Jesus Christ but not Christianity ? MM that is general term that that believers have gone under since the book of acts . We were known by others names such as Brethren, disciples, the way, Saints. But seems that Christos won the day. We Kinda of liked the term and how it was used to mock followers of the Jesus. We happily accepted the name as a badge of honour. so as Christians we did became predominantly known.
I didn't say that they don't have to believe Christianity. For me, there is no replacement of Christ, the Person, in naming because there are so many people throughout history and today who are Hell-bound, and yet call themselves "Christians." So, that term "Christian" doesn't seem to have a solid, universally understood meaning since it means so many different things to so many different people. The Greek from which translations render it "Church" is Ecclesia, which means "called out ones," which we don't refer to ourselves as, especially since that doesn't point directly to Christ Jesus as the One who is doing the calling. There are people in Central America who sacrifice chickens to their ancient ancestors, but who are also in good standing with the Vatican as "good, faithful Christians," and therefore among the finest of Roman Catholics. There are also ancestral traditions in Spain, practiced by Roman Catholics there, all with the approval of the leadership in the Vatican, and NOW we see what the current Pope is endorsing and blessing...
So, referring to "Christian" is an English word that has taken on such a convoluted set of definitions amongst different people that I no longer use it to try and define something specific, which is the one TRUE faith in Christ Jesus.
MM you say the early church became Messianic Jews. Are you sure I can’t find that term in early church history. Actually it be a very modern term introduced in the early 60’s and 70’s with groups such as Jews for Jesus. There be many different branch’s of these Messianic Jews, they have a very popular and strong following today. But from what I have read the early Christians were not known by that name .
Yes, Prin90, I agree that it is a modern term, but the grouping to which it points are the same as those in Jerusalem in the first century Church in that region. They were once Orthodox Jews who became followers of Christ. Yes, they were zealous for the Law, but that doesn't mean they believed in the sacrificial elements any longer, but rather continued to follow the festivals and observances and Shabbat, which is fine. Any Gentile can also become a partaker of those observances. The problem arises when they teach that ALL Gentiles must perform those same observances and follow the ordinances. That is an entirely different discussion, however.
You ask do I bring up Judaism. Absolutely. Yes. MM how could one not not bring up Judaism? For it be a very doctrinal matter and also a eschatology matter .
Judaism rejects eschatology as laid out in the prophets and Revelation. Their rabbis are trained to ignore this:
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and
they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.
They will tell you that they have no comment, and walk away, just as they are trained to do, so their take on these things clearly is of no value to any discussion in eschatology. They also avoid Isaiah 53 like the plague. So, my Judeo brothers, and their religion, have nothing of any value to contribute to the discussion.
Whilst they may be spiritually dead Judaism is alive and well their ferocious animosity towards Jesus and Christians has never changed from the time they used to hunt Christians down like wild animals all through the book of Acts. MM Rome isn’t the only place that the blood the Saints crieth out.
Very true indeed.
As to the word distinction the meaning Is extremely flexible and I’m uncomfortable with it. Class and race distinction does come to mind as a possibility and this is.what concerns me greatly in setting Jew and gentile into two different categories. Christ destroyed the wall of partition for Jew and Gentile alike. The reason we are all now called the Israel of God and belong to God.
In some respects, yes, you are correct. However, ethnic Israel, as I had said before, shall still play a role in the very end times era. The scriptures bear this out in what I quoted above from Zecheriah.
MM
