Grafted In? Huh? What Does That Mean?

Dave the gleanings you mention does remind me very much of the book of Ruth with Ruth gleaning the left overs from the harvest in the. field. But is leftover gleanings what the scripture infers of the first fruits here ? Dave there be number of interpretations you have the futurist view, the Preterist view and the historical view there is also be double prophecy to evaluate and you could also add a partial fulfilment and unfulfilled view point of Revelation too. As MM wisely said you must evaluate all sides of the dice wisely be it historically or futuristic or any other viewpoint . Regard Prim
NO Prime90.

"Gleaning" was a process of harvesting the "LAST" remnants of a crop.

The 144 K are the "FIRST FRUITS". That is diametrically opposed to Gleaning!

Prime....the Preterist has absolutely NO validity in Bible prophecy so it is NOT comparable in any way!
 
Those things you mention are in there as well but so is all that I quoted to you about dual covenant belief. So In essence no that is not all that was insinuated about merely the persecutions of Jews by the church from bygone eras and forced conversions The article clearly states that Jews can be saved independently of Jesus. As with everything else I mentioned in post 54
What makes this unique is the Catholic religion is not Bible Christianity so what they propose is not applicable.
 
MM point taken. But tell me this. Even if some be Christian in name only. How does changing to a different name change ones outlook towards a closer relationship. But let’s say we did change our name to the Messianics or the Called out Ones or even maybe the penguins : ) How many decades before those group names would be in name only for some. It would be like a revolving merry go round of name changing which would not solve anything.of the proposed dilemma you think upon.

That's just it. It IS a merry-go-round of names and identities. Only through the new birth in Christ Jesus is there salvation. All else does not matter. People will to what they want to do, and they will identify with whatever makes them feel good. Only those who give their lives over to Christ Jesus will ever be saved. It's about the heart, not the name of religion others identify with simply because it makes them feel secure.

Think about it...many call themselves "Christian" even though they have never been born again:

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

As to the the modern term Messianic Jews. Yes I can understand that term being more successful in witnessing to Jews of such organisations that go under that name.

They did not adopt that name to witness to Orthodox Jews. They adopted that to say to others that they are Jews, and that they follow Yahshuah.

For they seem to have much success than the established . The established church has never really had much success converting Jews away from Judaism over the Millenia even with all our churches, schools and hospitals located in the Holy Land. But when I think upon a universal audience MM I do think much wiser to use the term Christian for we are all one in Christ and that is what we are called from and after the book of Acts

If you wish to identify by that name, then that is ok. I do not wish to try and take that from you.

MM you say Judaism and Rabbi rejects eschatology from the Torah. Me not quite grasp what you mean.

Eschatology itself tells us that the Orthodox Jews will embrace and follow the anti-christ, who will sign a treaty of peace and protection, and then he will violate that treaty in the middle of the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble, which will trigger the Tribulation this world has never seen before. The Jews do not believe that, even though that is what is prophesied in the prophets that they refuse to believe.

I know it not their final authority in all things for many they have the Babylonian Talmud & Jerusalem Talmud and the Zoar which May override the Torah. But Surely there must be some Rabbi that hold to Torah. As to some Jewish practices. Yes some remain popular amongst the Christian nations such as the circumcision. As to Revelations many do shy away from it simply because of the multitude of interpretations. Some things were never be agreed upon I guess. At least until we arrive heaven : ) But there is always the promise of a extra blessing for those who read Revelations in the books very first chapter for those who do. May we continue to enjoy its blessings. MM may we all continue to enjoy the blessings it bestows upon us . Prim 👩🏻‍🔧

Prim90, I am an Israeli...a Jew, and so am well acquainted with their beliefs and what they will do in order to protect what they have been taught by the foolish rabbis they follow.

Just wanted to make sure you understood that.

MM
 
NO Prime90.

"Gleaning" was a process of harvesting the "LAST" remnants of a crop.

The 144 K are the "FIRST FRUITS". That is diametrically opposed to Gleaning!

Prime....the Preterist has absolutely NO validity in Bible prophecy so it is NOT comparable in any way!
Major it was Dave that wrote about the Gleanings in post 51 He merely spoke of some people that believed the first fruits could also mean the last fruits due to the gleaning being the last process. I merely spoke of Ruth who was employed in a similar activity and if this is what the Firstfruits implied? with the gleaning in my pst 59. Neither me nor Dave said we agreed with in what these people believed. And that is not what I believe anyway.
 
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That's just it. It IS a merry-go-round of names and identities. Only through the new birth in Christ Jesus is there salvation. All else does not matter. People will to what they want to do, and they will identify with whatever makes them feel good. Only those who give their lives over to Christ Jesus will ever be saved. It's about the heart, not the name of religion others identify with simply because it makes them feel secure.

Think about it...many call themselves "Christian" even though they have never been born again:

Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



They did not adopt that name to witness to Orthodox Jews. They adopted that to say to others that they are Jews, and that they follow Yahshuah.



If you wish to identify by that name, then that is ok. I do not wish to try and take that from you.



Eschatology itself tells us that the Orthodox Jews will embrace and follow the anti-christ, who will sign a treaty of peace and protection, and then he will violate that treaty in the middle of the 70th week of Jacob's Trouble, which will trigger the Tribulation this world has never seen before. The Jews do not believe that, even though that is what is prophesied in the prophets that they refuse to believe.



Prim90, I am an Israeli...a Jew, and so am well acquainted with their beliefs and what they will do in order to protect what they have been taught by the foolish rabbis they follow.

Just wanted to make sure you understood that.

MM
MM thank you. Me glad that I can identify as a Christian around you. But by what name would You like to be known. The Disciple MM ? The Pilgrim MM ? Or the Brother MM : ) You must let me know so me make you feel comfortable too. MM you be the Jewish one .You be Sephardic Jew, or the Ashkenazi Jew? 440AC020-8280-4CCB-96A3-91CA06FE8757.jpegMM you speak of the future Antichrist. How do you view Daniel 9:37( Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of woman, nor regard any God: for he shall magnify himself above all ) Your Christian Prim : )
 
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MM thank you. Me glad that I can identify as a Christian around you. But by what name would You like to be known. The Disciple MM ? The Pilgrim MM ? Or the Brother MM : ) You must let me know so me make you feel comfortable too.

Prim, I've never thought about a name making me comfortable.

When it comes to doctrinal identity, I've told people to consider me a biblicist.

As to a religious title, I have none because I am not religious. Faith, as defined in scripture, and religion are mutually exclusive. They are not synonymous.

If you ask what I am, I'm simply a follower of Christ with no need for a special identifier or label.

Throughout human history, mankind has been obsessed with titles, even making "elder" a title within the institutional systems throughout history...calling men "elder" who were not mature in the faith, but simply had been elected by a sheeple grouping who see elders as more of a political position within the organization than a biblically functional position that has qualifications that many elected "elders" throughout history never did aspire anywhere near those heights.

Some even call me, "Hey you..." I take no offense, for I am less and less, that Christ may be magnified and elevated in the eyes of others.

MM you be the Jewish one .You be Sephardic Jew, or the Ashkenazi Jew?

No. I am Israeli. That points to the northern ten tribes that comprised the northern kingdom, the people of whom had been destroyed or taken captive by the Assyrians in about 721 BC, never to return to the land of Israel until 1948 and thereafter. The southern two tribes were the ones labeled as "Jews". It was not until recently that the two sticks were joined into one, as prophesied.

MM you speak of the future Antichrist. How do you view Daniel 9:37( Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of woman, nor regard any God: for he shall magnify himself above all ) Your Christian Prim : )

There are things that we do not yet know. Many speculate from where the antichrist will originate. As for now, dare we gauge possibilities, there is only one in all the world right now who is lauded as being the authority over all authorities on the earth; the only one who is said to be the only sovereign who can depose kings, and that's the guy who sits on a throne in Vatican City. Their own declarations have made this abundantly clear that he is indeed seen precisely in that light by their own literature, which I can prove from historic writings of their own making if anyone has questions about that.

If there arises another one who is lauded as being a higher authority than him, who rules over all kings of the earth, then the world will will know who he is, and from where he came. If he does not desire women, as stated in Daniel 11:37, then he likely will be homosexual, as may be a confirmed thought given recent declarations by Francis of late in relation to homosexual unions being blessed by their priests. It's in the news all over the world, so I'm not making stuff up.

No other singular man in history has ever been considered to be above all apart from the kings of ancient Babylon. Actually, that verse can also be reference to something else where the word "desire for women" is concerned. The Hebrew word translated as "desire" in that grammatical sense is defined as this:

נשׁים ח׳ Daniel 11:37, apparently reference to some object of idolatrous worship, perhaps Adonis = Tammuz Ew Bev (Astarte, Meinh). [Brown, Drivers and Briggs Hebrew Dictionary.]

That would seem to indicate that the antichrist will not venerate the roman catholic Mary.

So, at this time, nobody can say for sure who he is, although he is likely alive in this world right now, and possibly is already in the limelight for all to see, but just not yet empowered since the Restrainer is still restraining him from coming to full power. All we have yet seen are the "rumblings" of his power structure over all the kings of the earth.

Future antichrist? He's already here...in this world if Christ is soon to receive His own unto Himself...

MM
 
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Major it was Dave that wrote about the Gleanings in post 51 He merely spoke of some people that believed the first fruits could also mean the last fruits due to the gleaning being the last process. I merely spoke of Ruth who was employed in a similar activity and if this is what the Firstfruits implied? with the gleaning in my pst 59. Neither me nor Dave said we agreed with in what these people believed. And that is not what I believe anyway.
I was replying to your post in #61 where you said.............
"Dave the gleanings you mention does remind me very much of the book of Ruth with Ruth gleaning the left overs from the harvest in the. field. But is leftover gleanings what the scripture infers of the first fruits.

I was just trying to show you the difference between "gleaning" = last fruits and the 144 K which are the 1st Fruits.
 
Real attention grabber, huh?

I've heard a couple of different explanations to what it means to be "grafted in." Some fixate on being grafted into Israel. Others talk about having been grafted into Christ.

Well, let's see what the Bible says. First and foremost is this from the words of Jesus Himself:

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Then we see this, which many interpret as Gentiles having been grafted into Israel as the "tree":

Romans 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Hmm. when I read this, I don't see that the Gentiles were grafted into Israel, but rather AMONG the fellow branches. Why?

Well, what did Jesus say? Look back at the first verse quoted here from John 15. It is Christ who is the vine. When people take the latter and run off into the wild yonder of thinking that Gentiles possess the inferiority of being grafted into any of the branches, that simply doesn't work, neither in horticulture nor in spiritual realities.

If you would like further study on this, then here is a great teaching on this topic:


MM
MM, thanks for I initiating such an interesting and informative discussion. God bless ya.
 
Bob the Major used to always ping me and remind about about long replies with no spacing. The spacing doesn’t seen work on my phone. But on computer just fine . So I accomodate with a white strip sometimes pink perhaps next time blue
Actually, the old Major reminded you of long posts with NO paragraphs which allowed you to run different thoughts and opinions together making it impossible to communicate with you.
 
I was replying to your post in #61 where you said.............
"Dave the gleanings you mention does remind me very much of the book of Ruth with Ruth gleaning the left overs from the harvest in the. field. But is leftover gleanings what the scripture infers of the first fruits.

I was just trying to show you the difference between "gleaning" = last fruits and the 144 K which are the 1st Fruits.
Ok well I’m sure everyone is clear on that now Firstfruits be Firstfruits not middle or lastfruits unless clearly stated. Major thank you
 
Actually, the old Major reminded you of long posts with NO paragraphs which allowed you to run different thoughts and opinions together making it impossible to communicate with you.
Major many of us use our phones and not the computer. My phone doesn’t allow for the gapping it just reverts back to the next line. I now now use a strip when required to elevate that problem
 
Major many of us use our phones and not the computer. My phone doesn’t allow for the gapping it just reverts back to the next line. I now now use a strip when required to elevate that problem

Dosent your phone have a "space" bar or enter and start a new paragraph????
 
Prim, I've never thought about a name making me comfortable.

When it comes to doctrinal identity, I've told people to consider me a biblicist.

As to a religious title, I have none because I am not religious. Faith, as defined in scripture, and religion are mutually exclusive. They are not synonymous.

If you ask what I am, I'm simply a follower of Christ with no need for a special identifier or label.

Throughout human history, mankind has been obsessed with titles, even making "elder" a title within the institutional systems throughout history...calling men "elder" who were not mature in the faith, but simply had been elected by a sheeple grouping who see elders as more of a political position within the organization than a biblically functional position that has qualifications that many elected "elders" throughout history never did aspire anywhere near those heights.

Some even call me, "Hey you..." I take no offense, for I am less and less, that Christ may be magnified and elevated in the eyes of others.



No. I am Israeli. That points to the northern ten tribes that comprised the northern kingdom, the people of whom had been destroyed or taken captive by the Assyrians in about 721 BC, never to return to the land of Israel until 1948 and thereafter. The southern two tribes were the ones labeled as "Jews". It was not until recently that the two sticks were joined into one, as prophesied.



There are things that we do not yet know. Many speculate from where the antichrist will originate. As for now, dare we gauge possibilities, there is only one in all the world right now who is lauded as being the authority over all authorities on the earth; the only one who is said to be the only sovereign who can depose kings, and that's the guy who sits on a throne in Vatican City. Their own declarations have made this abundantly clear that he is indeed seen precisely in that light by their own literature, which I can prove from historic writings of their own making if anyone has questions about that.

If there arises another one who is lauded as being a higher authority than him, who rules over all kings of the earth, then the world will will know who he is, and from where he came. If he does not desire women, as stated in Daniel 11:37, then he likely will be homosexual, as may be a confirmed thought given recent declarations by Francis of late in relation to homosexual unions being blessed by their priests. It's in the news all over the world, so I'm not making stuff up.

No other singular man in history has ever been considered to be above all apart from the kings of ancient Babylon. Actually, that verse can also be reference to something else where the word "desire for women" is concerned. The Hebrew word translated as "desire" in that grammatical sense is defined as this:

נשׁים ח׳ Daniel 11:37, apparently reference to some object of idolatrous worship, perhaps Adonis = Tammuz Ew Bev (Astarte, Meinh). [Brown, Drivers and Briggs Hebrew Dictionary.]

That would seem to indicate that the antichrist will not venerate the roman catholic Mary.

So, at this time, nobody can say for sure who he is, although he is likely alive in this world right now, and possibly is already in the limelight for all to see, but just not yet empowered since the Restrainer is still restraining him from coming to full power. All we have yet seen are the "rumblings" of his power structure over all the kings of the earth.

Future antichrist? He's already here...in this world if Christ is soon to receive His own unto Himself...

MM
MM the Biblicist : ) Well there be many that lay claim to that name too. The Jehovah witnesses and more so with old Nick. He be a exceptional Biblicalist. He knows our Bible inside out much better than ourselves. Perhaps with all names it be the fruits of the Spirit and the lasting impression of the people we meet by those names that gives any name a lasting validity. Or as you said without that it be in name only for some. BEF97FE1-CF26-4F42-B906-B4E4AD15253B.jpeg MM Throughout history you say many have been possessed by the power that titles bring . Be that that religious or secular. For some yes for others no .The true reality is that we must have titles of position and authority in order for society to function properly be that religious or secular to work. Imagine a world with no titles or position of law in order. Yes imagine 8 billion little earthlings running around without law & order doing as they please the whole world would be a entire shambles I should think. So perhaps we must think a little deeper when thinking upon such things as titles and why we need and why we have. BEF97FE1-CF26-4F42-B906-B4E4AD15253B.jpeg Your list of possibilities of where the Antichrist shall arise is narrowed down to the possibility of Rome at the moment. It be feasible one many through the centuries have claimed just that. Your emphasis on goddess worship in the passage of Daniel is a interesting one. The sensual desire and beauty of the goddess in whatever culture has sent men mad with desire to the 4 corners of the world in pursuit of her scent with every passing generation. Even for the lesser goddesses some do say : ) Yet when it comes to the Virgin Mary. You say that from the Antichrist perspective there is no veneration at least for Mary. . Perhaps the veneration and memory of who she brought into the world namely the Lord would be to much for he Antichrist to stomach and might well be the reason for him doing so.. Prim 👩🏻‍🔧
 
MM the Biblicist : ) Well there be many that lay claim to that name too. The Jehovah witnesses and more so with old Nick. He be a exceptional Biblicalist.

What is a Biblicalist, and who is "old Nick"?

MM Throughout history you say many have been possessed by the power that titles bring . Be that that religious or secular. For some yes for others no .The true reality is that we must have titles of position and authority in order for society to function properly be that religious or secular to work.

What value is there in religion for titles? I agree that many practice such, but when we are in Christ, and even gender and ethnicity is of no merit, where's the value?

Imagine a world with no titles or position of law in order. Yes imagine 8 billion little earthlings running around without law & order doing as they please the whole world would be a entire shambles I should think. So perhaps we must think a little deeper when thinking upon such things as titles and why we need and why we have.

Prim, that's what we call a straw man argument. I never addressed anything that would suggest a lack of law and order, so I am not understanding why you bring that into this discussion.

Your list of possibilities of where the Antichrist shall arise is narrowed down to the possibility of Rome at the moment.

Actually, Rome is only one of several possibilities I have heard various sources suggest. I have not settled on Rome as the absolute source for the man of sin.

Your emphasis on goddess worship in the passage of Daniel is a interesting one. The sensual desire and beauty of the goddess in whatever culture has sent men mad with desire to the 4 corners of the world in pursuit of her scent with every passing generation. Even for the lesser goddesses some do say : ) Yet when it comes to the Virgin Mary. You say that from the Antichrist perspective there is no veneration at least for Mary. . Perhaps the veneration and memory of who she brought into the world namely the Lord would be to much for he Antichrist to stomach and might well be the reason for him doing so.. Prim 👩🏻‍🔧

The angel spoke of Mary being "blessed" among women, not that she should be venerated and worshipped as being a co-redeemer and a source for the salvation of men. She does not hear prayers from anyone, and she does not convince the REAL Christ to do anything as a mediator. Nobody who was mortal and passed from this life is in such a position.

Just my take on it all.

MM
 
Now, back on the topic of grafting in: We have to keep in mind that such is merely a conceptual way of wording a much deeper reality.

What did you all glean from Rob's video on the topic?

MM
 
What is a Biblicalist, and who is "old Nick"?



What value is there in religion for titles? I agree that many practice such, but when we are in Christ, and even gender and ethnicity is of no merit, where's the value?



Prim, that's what we call a straw man argument. I never addressed anything that would suggest a lack of law and order, so I am not understanding why you bring that into this discussion.



Actually, Rome is only one of several possibilities I have heard various sources suggest. I have not settled on Rome as the absolute source for the man of sin.



The angel spoke of Mary being "blessed" among women, not that she should be venerated and worshipped as being a co-redeemer and a source for the salvation of men. She does not hear prayers from anyone, and she does not convince the REAL Christ to do anything as a mediator. Nobody who was mortal and passed from this life is in such a position.

Just my take on it all.

MM
MM a Biblicist would be a scholar. As to old Nick it be a term from colonial times for the devil. He’s been around long time and excels as a biblicist too along with many other things 0CF9ED1D-3011-4E9C-A7B7-2EB70B073027.jpegWell there be no strawman. The reality is that titles and positions there be rule of law as also in every other aspect of society. It equally applies to the church. Even if be we one in Christ. Even in the world to come you will have rule of law. It’s called theocracy. I guess We would have respectively disagree on that one. Yes best we continue on with the post at hand.
 
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Uh, folks, I've asked that we get back on track here, if you would, please.

Now, back on the topic of grafting in: We have to keep in mind that such is merely a conceptual way of wording a much deeper reality.

What did you all glean from Rob's video on the topic in the OP?

MM
 
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