Hell

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Do we look at Hell in the wrong direction? Study the parables of Heaven....

Matthew 20:1-16
For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard. And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace, And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way. Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise. And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle? They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, [that] shall ye receive. So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them [their] hire, beginning from the last unto the first. And when they came that [were hired] about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny. But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny. And when they had received [it], they murmured against the goodman of the house, Saying, These last have wrought [but] one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny? Take [that] thine [is], and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

Matthew 22:1-14 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said, The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and [my] fatlings [are] killed, and all things [are] ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of [it], and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: And the remnant took his servants, and entreated [them] spitefully, and slew [them]. But when the king heard [thereof], he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few [are] chosen.
 
May 19, 2012
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I go with the definition of hell that it is being cut off from God - the truth, the light, and all things good and pure. I knew a person who claimed he was "oppressed" (or possessed - I was never clear) and one night "angels came and cleared these entities" from his home and away from him, so that "God came and talked" with him. He was told by the angels that the demons had hung around with him for a glimpse of God. That they were cut off from God and that was that. These demons knew what they had forsaken, many human beings don't know what that cut off means. I think this is why a loving God gives us all those chances to return to him.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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I go with the definition of hell that it is being cut off from God - the truth, the light, and all things good and pure. I knew a person who claimed he was "oppressed" (or possessed - I was never clear) and one night "angels came and cleared these entities" from his home and away from him, so that "God came and talked" with him. He was told by the angels that the demons had hung around with him for a glimpse of God. That they were cut off from God and that was that. These demons knew what they had forsaken, many human beings don't know what that cut off means. I think this is why a loving God gives us all those chances to return to him.
While that is true, "that God is loving and wants us all to have chances to come to Him', we have to come to a conclusion that it does not go on eternally. Death, physical death brings human responces and actions to an end.

That is what life is all about Silk............Preparing to meet God.

Is hell being cut off from God? Certainly it is. But the question must be WHERE ???

Rev. 19 : 20
"And the beast (A/C) was taken and with him the false prophet that brought miracles before him with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast and them that worshipped his image. These were both cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone"

Rev.21:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

Now, do we just remove these verses from the Scriptures because we either do not like them or can not accept them?

I submitt that these words are exactly what God wanted said and they mean exactly what He wanted them to say.

The wicked lost are CUT OFF, Seperated from God and are placed into the lake of fire for the rest of all time. They will be in torment in the fire that will never go out. YES, they will gnaw their tongues and cry out and it sounds awful because it is awful! This is why all men need to come to Christ and be saved today.

Now that is not what I say or think but instead it is what the Word of God says.
 
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You know we disagree on this Major. I don't see us changing our point of view either. I do not believe death of the body leads to immediate judgement on the soul. The mark of the beast, the anti christ and false prophet have not yet come to pass. My understanding of Revelation is that Judgement day will occur in the linear time dimension of here. And it will occur with all humanity at that time. If God wants us all back, don't you think perhaps that it might be possible?
 
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You know we disagree on this Major. I don't see us changing our point of view either. I do not believe death of the body leads to immediate judgement on the soul. The mark of the beast, the anti christ and false prophet have not yet come to pass. My understanding of Revelation is that Judgement day will occur in the linear time dimension of here. And it will occur with all humanity at that time. If God wants us all back, don't you think perhaps that it might be possible?
It is perfectly alright to disagree Silk.

You are correct Silk.
Death of the body does not lead to immediate judgement.

All of the wicked dead, the lost of all ages are judged at "The Great White Throne Judgment" which is at the end of the 1000 year rule of Christ.

It matters not what I think or say but what does Gods Word say.............

Rev. 20:11
"And I saw a Great White Throne and Him that sat on it from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great stand before God and the books were opened which is the book of life and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books according to their works".

Again, you are correct. We have not yet seen what the Mark of the Beast will be.

Unfortunitely, you are incorrect on the judgements. There will be TWO judgments NOT ONE.

In John 5:29, Jesus refers to a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of judgment."

The apostle Paul agreed in his defense before Felix when he stated that he believed the teaching of the prophets "that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15).

Then there is the "Bema Seat of Christ" which is only for believers. 2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 14:10-13 and 1 Corth. 3:10-17 describe this event.
The subjects of this judgement are glorified Christians whose works and service for the Lord will be reviewed and rewarded at the Bema Seat which will be set up in Heaven after the Rapture and transformation of the Church, the body of Christ. I realize that some people do not believe in the Rapture and that is OK, but you will find it described in
1 Thess. 4: 13-18.

Will it be possible for God to want us back?????

Silk........He never wanted it anyother way my dear. IT is the wicked lost sinner who rejects God and chooses his eternal fate and location. God's will is for all men to be saved, but man must believe that God is and when death comes, it closes the door to choice.
 
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Major says:He never wanted it any other way my dear. IT is the wicked lost sinner who rejects God and chooses his eternal fate and location. God's will is for all men to be saved, but man must believe that God is and when death comes, it closes the door to choice.

Your scripture does not refute what I have said. There is no argument, as far as I am concerned, that any rejection of God decides a soul's fate. What I asked was, after all that have passed from this mortal coil, was that if God wants us ALL back, the quick and the dead, if you didn't think it was possible? And if it were not possible, why would God still be wanting us all back?
 
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I am doing a message this weekend on Hell. the more I think about it the more disturbing it is -- everlasting torture? I am a Bible believing Christian. It just seems so harsh -- everlasting punishment for temporal crimes. What am I missing?
Hell is our punishment for sin. Sin isn't temporal, but has been on earth since the fall of Adam and Eve.
 
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Major says:He never wanted it any other way my dear. IT is the wicked lost sinner who rejects God and chooses his eternal fate and location. God's will is for all men to be saved, but man must believe that God is and when death comes, it closes the door to choice.

Your scripture does not refute what I have said. There is no argument, as far as I am concerned, that any rejection of God decides a soul's fate. What I asked was, after all that have passed from this mortal coil, was that if God wants us ALL back, the quick and the dead, if you didn't think it was possible? And if it were not possible, why would God still be wanting us all back?
Of course, I must ask what Scripture do you use to say that God still wants us all to come back after we die?

I will try again. NO! Death ends all choices!!!

There is NO purgatory, no second chance after death. The 1st Resurrection for the saved will be when God puts the souls of the saved back with their bodies and rewards are given. The 2nd Resurrection is in Rev. 20 and it is for the judgment of all the wicked lost of all the ages. It is the Great White Throne Judgment. They, the lost are guilty but they will receive a fair trial because Jesus will be their judge. Does God want them to come to him???

YES! But they did not make the choice for the Lord Jesus Christ when they could now they can not make it.

To be with the Lord in heaven, all men/women must choose the Lord Jesus today while they still can because death closes the door.
 
May 19, 2012
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I'm sure you know these :

  • "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
  • "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).

I have to reread Revelation as it has been a long time and with newer eyes, I may see more. Naturally, I read the verses from your post and I was caught for awhile with ;20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.
It can be taken in two ways, at least IMO, that perhaps those on thrones (leadership or rather mis-leadership) were the ones punished and given judgement. I realize of course that it is mostly taken as that they are the believers. But I recognize my lacks and will take the time to study the book. But what if it was just the leaders who mislead large groups in the wrong direction that were taken care of, along with those who took the mark. It seems to me that it says in scripture (somewhere) that by the time of the Mark - those who take it will KNOW what they are choosing - that by this time, all will know the spiritual truth - not guessing, interpeting or whatever. There will be no tricks to make them accept, because that is taking free will away too. As I said, will have to look further. But on the fact, IMO, that God wants us all back, still, I remain unchanged and therfore Know it's possible.

As a complete aside :p I wanted to thank you on the advice of asking the Holy Ghost to help me pray (and read) - it was extremely helpful.
 
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Oh and all those near-deathers, and ghost hunters would say you're wrong (kidding you)
 
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I'm sure you know these :

  • "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:3-4).
  • "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance" (2 Pet. 3:9).


I have to reread Revelation as it has been a long time and with newer eyes, I may see more. Naturally, I read the verses from your post and I was caught for awhile with ;20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.
It can be taken in two ways, at least IMO, that perhaps those on thrones (leadership or rather mis-leadership) were the ones punished and given judgement. I realize of course that it is mostly taken as that they are the believers. But I recognize my lacks and will take the time to study the book. But what if it was just the leaders who mislead large groups in the wrong direction that were taken care of, along with those who took the mark. It seems to me that it says in scripture (somewhere) that by the time of the Mark - those who take it will KNOW what they are choosing - that by this time, all will know the spiritual truth - not guessing, interpeting or whatever. There will be no tricks to make them accept, because that is taking free will away too. As I said, will have to look further. But on the fact, IMO, that God wants us all back, still, I remain unchanged and therfore Know it's possible.

As a complete aside :p I wanted to thank you on the advice of asking the Holy Ghost to help me pray (and read) - it was extremely helpful.
See.........neither one of those Scriptures refer to a man being able to come to God after death do they???

I agree with both of them and all the others as well BUT my dear, they do not speak to after death but before death!!!!!

ALL of those you see in Rev. 20:4 are saved people. They are the Tribulation myrters who refused to worship the breast and take his mark.

You are correct that all who take the mark of the beast will do so willingly.
 
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Some bones to chew on: 2 Cor 6:2 For he says, "In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
Quoting from Isa 49:8 Thus says the LORD: "In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages,
Isa 49:9 saying to the prisoners, 'Come out,' to those who are in darkness, 'Appear.' They shall feed along the ways; on all bare heights shall be their pasture;
and
Isa 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;
Isa 61:2 to proclaim the year of the LORD's favor, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all who mourn;
Isa 61:3 to grant to those who mourn in Zion— to give them a beautiful headdress instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the garment of praise instead of a faint spirit; that they may be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he may be glorified.
 
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Major says: See.........neither one of those Scriptures refer to a man being able to come to God after death do they???

They don't say the living either - they say all. And by perish, I think soul death is meant not body death.
 
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Of course they do.;.......they have to!

I do not accept near death experience neither do I believe in ghosts.
I know, we've had this conversation before that's why I said I was kidding you. I will repeat, out of the hundreds of near death experiences I have read about, the ones who go down nearly all indicate they had to call out to God to be released. They come back, deeply changed in the Lord. And none of them fear death any more - most didn't want to come back - those that went north. Beyond my reading, I experienced another child's death and come back, when I was a child. It was true - no show boating.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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Major says: See.........neither one of those Scriptures refer to a man being able to come to God after death do they???

They don't say the living either - they say all. And by perish, I think soul death is meant not body death.
From Dr. Billy Graham:

My own study of the Bible has convinced me that our souls or spirits go immediately into the presence of God when we die. The Apostle Paul wrote that those of us who are Christians "would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Although the Bible doesn't answer all our questions about life after death, it clearly tells us that we can look forward to heaven's joys when we die, if we know Christ. Shortly before His death and resurrection, Jesus told His disciples, "I am going there to prepare a place for you ... that you also may be where I am" (John 14:2-3). The Bible also says, "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

The most important truth I can tell you about heaven, however, is that we will be with God, and nothing evil or harmful will ever touch us again. In heaven, God "will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away" (Revelation 21:4). Why would anyone not want to go there?
 
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What some researchers of near-death experiences say, that altho the experience is unique to the individual, there are big numbers that show alot of similarities to what has been chronicled for centuries. The majority of the cases going up, meet dead relatives, many go thru "life reviews" and then are told they have to go back - that there is business they must complete. The ones who go down (these are the minority at least by way of reports to others). They find themselves in a horrific area and scramble to call out to God, saying prayers they learned in childhood. They "see" god's light and come back to life. Up or down, ALL people describe a lack of fear of death after, (most ups wanted to stay there), it is a life changing event that they feel brings them spiritually closer to God.

Now the ghost hunters or paranormal researchers indicate in overwhelming numbers that ghosts are for the most part, those who have refused to crossover. They do have "proof" or evidence of hauntings. I'm not going into the "demonical" cases. There are reported singular or very infrequent contacts to the living from deceased loved ones, who have "crossed over" to give comfort to the living.

Near Death and Ghosts have been reported for centuries. If you dismiss these out of hand, so be it. But all of these are indications that there are at least two places where souls go after death, one very good, one very bad. There is the third place where those who refuse to "crossover" go that is right here or near the "earth plain". Some theorize that the soul vibrates at a higher frequency than we do.

These reports more or less agree with your point of view, that there is indeed, instant up or down results. That's where you come to the deal that these other dimensions, do not have the same time imposition.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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What some researchers of near-death experiences say, that altho the experience is unique to the individual, there are big numbers that show alot of similarities to what has been chronicled for centuries. The majority of the cases going up, meet dead relatives, many go thru "life reviews" and then are told they have to go back - that there is business they must complete. The ones who go down (these are the minority at least by way of reports to others). They find themselves in a horrific area and scramble to call out to God, saying prayers they learned in childhood. They "see" god's light and come back to life. Up or down, ALL people describe a lack of fear of death after, (most ups wanted to stay there), it is a life changing event that they feel brings them spiritually closer to God.

Now the ghost hunters or paranormal researchers indicate in overwhelming numbers that ghosts are for the most part, those who have refused to crossover. They do have "proof" or evidence of hauntings. I'm not going into the "demonical" cases. There are reported singular or very infrequent contacts to the living from deceased loved ones, who have "crossed over" to give comfort to the living.

Near Death and Ghosts have been reported for centuries. If you dismiss these out of hand, so be it. But all of these are indications that there are at least two places where souls go after death, one very good, one very bad. There is the third place where those who refuse to "crossover" go that is right here or near the "earth plain". Some theorize that the soul vibrates at a higher frequency than we do.

These reports more or less agree with your point of view, that there is indeed, instant up or down results. That's where you come to the deal that these other dimensions, do not have the same time imposition.
Silk.........ghost hunters and paranormal researchers are all in it for MONEY! They do not have any proof at all. All you see on TV is what the producers of a TV show want you to see so that they can make enough money to do another show. MONEY!!!!

They must fabricate their stories to obtain more money to "research". They fall into the same group as "Physics".

IMO there is not such thing as ESP and the like. It is all a bunch of schisters who have been praying on the vaunerable for thousands of years. They are very good in READING the body language and words of their victims. It is just that simple.

Here is something to think about. Of all the "Near Death" cases we hear of, why is it always that they come back from heaven????? Do you really believe that every near death experience involves heaven? Why not hell??

There are plenty of people who almost die that is a fact. But at the point of that happening the mind is a wonderful thing and it has a way of protecting us when we are in danger of loseing our life.

The people who do these things are not doing it to comfort others but to fleeece them of their money.
 

TalkJesus

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I am doing a message this weekend on Hell. the more I think about it the more disturbing it is -- everlasting torture? I am a Bible believing Christian. It just seems so harsh -- everlasting punishment for temporal crimes. What am I missing?
If you were poisoned and somebody offered you the antidote, would you accept it? Most people would.

Sin poisoned us with the result of being seperated from God wherein death is coming by which we would be totally seperated from all that is good Whom is God.

Jesus testified that the Father draws us unto the Son in revealing Him to us for us to believe and be saved.

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Jesus also testified why not every one is drawn unto the Son by the Father to believe in Him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

We see evidence of this scrutiny here in the early part of the church.

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

So there are evil & unjust sinners that do not care to be with God because they prefer the darkness rather than come to the light to have their evil deeds reproved whereas God knows those that seek Him as He has promised that all those that seek, shall find.

If we are unwilling to allow an unrepentant hard core felon be set free from life imprisonment or even from death row and have him living in our community, let alone in our very home, then we can see why hell has to be the only place for the wicked for all eternity. That's the inevitable end for those seperated by God because of sin as the wages of sin is death, meaning sin has borne its fruit of evil because after death, they have become so evil that they do not want to be with God and all that is good... ever, thus totally unredeemable.

Why not oblivion? Can God speak someone into being and ceased to exist? Then there would be doubt that He had ever spoken him into being in the first place.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, ......

By His word then, that which came into being by His word, cannot be voided.

Then we have the matter of His eternal judgment. If His promises are to be seen by His word as eternal in dealing with sin and death by which we will never be seperated from God ever again, then His judgments has to be the same as well, as being seen as eternal. That means His word cannot be voided as His promises & judgments are eternal when given and thus that which He called into being, must bear that judgment as something that was given and can never be voided.
 
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Major posts:Here is something to think about. Of all the "Near Death" cases we hear of, why is it always that they come back from heaven????? Do you really believe that every near death experience involves heaven? Why not hell
This is the third dang time I tried to post this, so if this goes blank again, I reckon I better reconsider what to post

I dunno Major, a Gallop Poll taken in 2011 said that 9 out of 10 people believe in God, in America, so maybe more have a shot than you think. If you reread my post you will see that I say the majority of near death cases say they went up or to the good place (I hesitate to call it heaven) and that far fewer cases are reported that they went to the bad place (same hesitation). It is likely that far less people want to report how they died, went to hell, got scared damn straight (all puns intended) and were returned to life. The most interesting, to me are those that went to the bad place. I read a story more than 30 years ago (don't remember title or author - it could have been "to hell and back") It was written by a woman who committed suicide and according to her, succeeded. She went to a horrific place, full of woe and despair, landing right next to the dessicated soul of Judas Iscariot. In desparation, she began to pray and calling out to God. Slowly, she began to see more and more lights, which she realized were souls. The place around her evaporated and she was counselled and returned to life. A changed woman. No proof tho like Doctors, Hospitals. Another case, better known in the NDE arena was about an American man travellingg in Italy, who got sick and died in the Hopsital. He went to a place filled with terror, pain, woe and despair. He remembered a prayer he was taught when he was a child and began to pour this out to God. Again he was returned to life after hours (?) of being dead. He became a preacher. There are other cases tho just google it. I have read the arguments against NDE being real. But I don't buy it. When I was a child (7-9?). Her friend's daughter had leukemia (age12-13?) - Judy. Margaret, the Mom was totally. most of her life been into God. She wasn't a holy roller (so to speak) nor did she proslytize, but she knew the good book backwards and forwards and up to her eyeballs in Church activity. This was before her daughter was diagnosed. Judy died, unexpectedly, in the hospital and her heart broken grief stricken mother could be heard in her anguish throughout the floor. "Why God, why?" 45 minutes after she was declared dead, Judy came back to life. To tell her Mother that she had been to Heaven and if her Mother only knew, she would let her go. She died the next day. Medicine being what it is today, I expect the NDE is more prevalent now, than back in the day. But such cases have in fact been reported, more sparsely for a very very long time.

As for Ghosts, never seen one while I was awake. But they too have been reported for centuries. Before there was any money in it. I'd be the first, also, to say be very very careful, and that there are alot of people just out for the money. I see this as downright dangerous - for all who concern themselves in this arena. But I do think God has called some with these abilities.