Hell
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Mr. Darby
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I Samuel 28
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Note that the text of the inspired writer refers to the spirit as being Samuel. It's words are called the words of Samuel. Following the normal rules of language, we must conclude that this was really Samuel. It is simply a matter of believing that the text actually means what it says.
I do understand the problem of the witch 'summoning' Samuel, but I do not think this should pose a problem. The witch apparently expected a demonic impersonator. She seemed rather shocked at what actually came up. It was clearly not what she expected, so she in no way 'summoned' him. God simply used the occasion to use Samuel one last time to bring a message of judgment to the evil King.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Note that the text of the inspired writer refers to the spirit as being Samuel. It's words are called the words of Samuel. Following the normal rules of language, we must conclude that this was really Samuel. It is simply a matter of believing that the text actually means what it says.
I do understand the problem of the witch 'summoning' Samuel, but I do not think this should pose a problem. The witch apparently expected a demonic impersonator. She seemed rather shocked at what actually came up. It was clearly not what she expected, so she in no way 'summoned' him. God simply used the occasion to use Samuel one last time to bring a message of judgment to the evil King.
Hey...If you think the witch was shocked that it really was Samuel, show that proof.
I think it not useful to omit the earlier verses, Mr.D.:
Note also that the witch saw "gods" Hebrew for "elhohim" which also can mean "angels"...and what sort of angels do those with "familiar spirits" deal with??
Sadly this is just another example of literalism: there are no other evidences in the OT that God uses demonology to teach, witchcraft to execute His "judgement".
I utterly refuse to accept that God is a double-dealer, condemning one thing and sanctioning it later....
Keep in mind as well: there are no punctuation marks in ancient Hebrew or Greek (as far as I know)....Thus I see it written as "Samuel", the demon impersonating the dead prophet.
I think it not useful to omit the earlier verses, Mr.D.:
The surprise was not about the demonic impersonation of Samuel, but of the deception of Saul: they both knew that death was God's orders for witchcraft.
Note also that the witch saw "gods" Hebrew for "elhohim" which also can mean "angels"...and what sort of angels do those with "familiar spirits" deal with??
Sadly this is just another example of literalism: there are no other evidences in the OT that God uses demonology to teach, witchcraft to execute His "judgement".
I utterly refuse to accept that God is a double-dealer, condemning one thing and sanctioning it later....
Keep in mind as well: there are no punctuation marks in ancient Hebrew or Greek (as far as I know)....Thus I see it written as "Samuel", the demon impersonating the dead prophet.
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Mr. Darby
Guest
when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice
Proof enough that she saw something she did not expect.
The fact that Samuel appeared here has nothing to do with God 'sanctioning' witchcraft. God simply used the evil occasion to deliver a message of judgment. God often turns the evil of men to his own purposes. He even used the evil spirit in the false prophets to mislead Ahab into judgment.
Proof enough that she saw something she did not expect.
The fact that Samuel appeared here has nothing to do with God 'sanctioning' witchcraft. God simply used the evil occasion to deliver a message of judgment. God often turns the evil of men to his own purposes. He even used the evil spirit in the false prophets to mislead Ahab into judgment.
Well...you have a right to your opinion, but I say "Horsefeathers"....You utterly ignored the verse I gave and it's meaning...in Hebrew....she saw angels coming from below.
Your prerogative, but it makes lousy sense to me.
Look up what the word "gods" means in 1 Sam 28:13.....I say they are evil angels according to the literal meaning of the word, not ghosts or prophets held in a Greek style purgatory...Of course witches would see evil spirits as they are possessed by a "familiar spirit" according to the Word.
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
Yes, she saw 'gods', seeing a number of different entities, but the entity in question is referred to as Samuel. We are not dealing with allegory, prophecy, or parable here. We are dealing with history. If we cannot trust the text to mean what it actually says in historical passages, how can we ever understand anything in the Bible?
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Mr. Darby
Guest
I Kings 22, if anyone is interestested in reading the story alluded to.
Oh I trust the Bible completely....not man's interpretations of it, however...Like I said...Demons can fool folks into thinking it was Samuel...See?I don't see God using demons to teach lessons....the only lesson Saul got from demons is death. Same with Ahab.
So you think demons have access to God in heaven? You take the literalness of this this to such a degree that God commissions demons who suggest lying and death to people...
Do you think God has nostrils He used to part the Red Sea? Exodus 15:8
Or spews fire from them as in 2Sam. 22:9?
Or uses poison arrows? Job 6:4
If God condemns witchcraft and necromancy, refuses to communicate to bad king Saul, who worsens his position with the Almighty by consorting with a demon possessed witch, he has left the protecting circle of the Lord and been duped by Satan...That's how I see it, anyway...
M
Mr. Darby
Guest
I agree with the idea that a demon can impersonate a dead person. I have no doubt that this is what happened all the time for the witch's normal clients. But the inspired writer, writing under divine inspiration, calls the entity 'Samuel'.
I disagree with you concerning the identity of this entity, but I do agree with you concerning not trusting men's interpretations. That is why I try to not let the opinions of scholars influence me to the point of coloring how I read the text. It is best for everyone to seek God, to whom interpretations belong. Although we can benefit from the insights of others, we need to remember where the final authority lies.
I disagree with you concerning the identity of this entity, but I do agree with you concerning not trusting men's interpretations. That is why I try to not let the opinions of scholars influence me to the point of coloring how I read the text. It is best for everyone to seek God, to whom interpretations belong. Although we can benefit from the insights of others, we need to remember where the final authority lies.
Well...some understanding is better than none, I reckon.
Keep in mind: The Word records everything, warts and all....Thomas' fear of Christ being a ghost, the disciple's racism toward non-Jews, Paul's stupidity in ignoring the 5 prophets, maybe because four were (gasp) women Acts 21: 9,11 ....The stubbornness of the Jerusalem disciples due to there walls against Gentiles...
The Bible shows ALL of the errors we can learn NOT to do certain things and also it will hopefully teach us to ask Him directly with no blinders or rose coloured glasses and not preachers, theologians or denominations for pat answers.
Keep in mind: The Word records everything, warts and all....Thomas' fear of Christ being a ghost, the disciple's racism toward non-Jews, Paul's stupidity in ignoring the 5 prophets, maybe because four were (gasp) women Acts 21: 9,11 ....The stubbornness of the Jerusalem disciples due to there walls against Gentiles...
The Bible shows ALL of the errors we can learn NOT to do certain things and also it will hopefully teach us to ask Him directly with no blinders or rose coloured glasses and not preachers, theologians or denominations for pat answers.
He also turned the ugly event of the cross into salvation for all humanity. God has always used bad for His own good.
God created the darkness and the light - he chose the light for us, knowing full well that darkness could and would overwhelm us. That he would "use" evil to advance his plan, makes complete sense to me. That we cannot hope to imitate this and have things turn out well for us, is equally clear to me. Whatever you might think Saul saw with the witch, it was to be taken as a ghost. That the Jews would have had knowledge of "ghosts" or spirits, makes it part of the known lexicon of it's era. As such, you have stories of "ghosts" from mankind's earliest times to the present.
Oh - speaking of Near Death Experiences (NDE) - there is a Book, Proof of Heaven, on the NY Times Best Seller List, that is written by a neurosurgeon, who's love of science made it hard for him to believe in God and life after death..He says : "Those implications are tremendous,beyond description. My experience showed me that the death of the human body iand the brain is not end of consciousness,that human experience continues beyond the grave. More important, it continues on under the gaze of a God, who loves and cares for each and every one of us and about where the universe itself and all the beings within it are it are ultimately going."He had heard of NDE before but didn't believe it was any more than fantasy and a reaction of the brain. Being a brain surgeon, going thru this, he knew better with precision, science based information. Just got it and am reading. It's short - 195 pgs. Should be finished in an hour.
Oh - speaking of Near Death Experiences (NDE) - there is a Book, Proof of Heaven, on the NY Times Best Seller List, that is written by a neurosurgeon, who's love of science made it hard for him to believe in God and life after death..He says : "Those implications are tremendous,beyond description. My experience showed me that the death of the human body and the brain is not end of consciousness,that human experience continues beyond the grave. More important, it continues on under the gaze of a God, who loves and cares for each and every one of us and about where the universe itself and all the beings within it are it are ultimately going."He had heard of NDE before but didn't believe it was any more than fantasy and a reaction of the brain. Being a brain surgeon, going thru this, he knew better with precision, science based information. Just got it and am reading. It's short - 195 pgs. Should be finished in an hour.
Oh so correct! BUT that culture error should not be assumed to be fact!
The 16th century Bible translators also believed in unicorns (6 times in the OT) BUT that doesn't make it a fact.
OMG, Rusty - you mean unicorns didn't really miss the ark, due to some unicorn foolishness? (silk <----heartbroken)... 
. Seriously, you have to tell me where in the OT the unicorns are mentioned because I don't remember seeing it before. And I think it's funny, too. I'm pretty sure that no one really believes in unicorns (really - I'm thinking it would make a good reality show .."Unicorn Hunters". ). There are legends, of course. It seems to me it would be easier to make a case for unicorns as an extinct species than even Bigfoot. You really did get me laughing, in a good way. Thanks. But I still believe that there is overwhelming evidence of ghosts, IMO.
. Seriously, you have to tell me where in the OT the unicorns are mentioned because I don't remember seeing it before. And I think it's funny, too. I'm pretty sure that no one really believes in unicorns (really - I'm thinking it would make a good reality show .."Unicorn Hunters". ). There are legends, of course. It seems to me it would be easier to make a case for unicorns as an extinct species than even Bigfoot. You really did get me laughing, in a good way. Thanks. But I still believe that there is overwhelming evidence of ghosts, IMO.