I am interested in your explanation for Trinitarianism or non Trinitarianism/Unitarianism

Hi. Like I said in the prayer request section, I haven’t been Baptised yet. So I suppose I have to work out whether I understand the New Testament teachings to teach a Trinitarian or non Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrine.

So, could you please explain why you are Trinitarian(I am assuming pretty much all of you are Trinitarian). But can you also give explanation for the verses used by non Trinitarian believers?

In case you are non Trinitarian/Unitarian, could you please give explanation for why are you Unitarian, but can you also discuss the verses that Trinitarians use in order to believe in Trinitarianism?

Thanks
 
Hi Peki

As far as explicit Biblical passages, I find the first chapter of John one of the most clear regarding the Son.

Look at:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John 1:1-14

The Word was both with God and was Himself God. This expresses the seperateness of the Son form the Father, and at the same time expresses the intimately oneness of of the Father with the Son, closer and more the same than my sons are with me.

Note also that creation of the world all inclusive (all things were made by Him, nothing made without Him). In verse 14, we find that the Word was made (by the Father) into Flesh (like us) and Lived with us. The word "among" is interesting. It implies that this Word through whom all that is came into being was not just placed in the midst of the people, but became one of those people.

The Holy Spirit is also God, but references to Him are, for the most part, less explicit, once one looks for it, you can see references to Him in everything from the Creation account (primary creation being exclusive to God) to discussions concerning prayer.

There is one God.

The Father is not the Son nor the Spirit. The Father is God. There is one God.
The Son is not the Father nor the Spirit. The Son is God. There is one God.
The Spirit is not the Son nor the Father. The Spirit is God. There is one God.

Contradictory? Appears to be.
True? Yes.

This is the Great Paradox.
---

As far as non Trinitarianism, to my knowledge all of these take great liberties with the Bible.
 
Hi. Like I said in the prayer request section, I haven’t been Baptised yet. So I suppose I have to work out whether I understand the New Testament teachings to teach a Trinitarian or non Trinitarian/Unitarian doctrine.

So, could you please explain why you are Trinitarian(I am assuming pretty much all of you are Trinitarian). But can you also give explanation for the verses used by non Trinitarian believers?

In case you are non Trinitarian/Unitarian, could you please give explanation for why are you Unitarian, but can you also discuss the verses that Trinitarians use in order to believe in Trinitarianism?

Thanks

If you post the Scriptures in question I will be glad to address them.

Personally.....I am a believer in the Trinity because that is what The Scriptures tell us.

1st of all I would tell you to ignore the negative idea that the "Word Trinity" is not in the Bible so then it can not be a Bible doctrine.

The Trinity falls under the doctrinal teaching under the heading of "Implied Truth". I will be the 1st one to tell you that it is a difficult doctrine to explain much less believe. The Bible teaches that the Father is God, that Jesus the Son is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible also teaches that there is only one God. Though we can understand some facts about the relationship of the different Persons of the Trinity to one another, ultimately, it is incomprehensible to the human mind. However, this does not mean the Trinity is not true or that it is not based on the teachings of the Bible.

Consider these Scriptures in Context as well as what they IMPLY without actually saying Trinity...…….

Genesis 1:1 ………….. (ONE GOD)
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth."

Genesis 1:26...……….(Notice the words are PLURAL)
"Then God said, “Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

Genesis 3:22...……….(Notice the words are PLURAL)
"Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of US in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—”

Genesis 11:7 ……...….(Again, PLURAL)
"Come, let US go down and there confuse their language, so that they may not understand one another’s speech.”

Isaiah 6:8...……………..(PLURAL)
"And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for US?” Then I said, “Here I am! Send me.”

In the original Hebrew the plural noun "Elohim" is used in the above Scriptures and the plural pronoun for “us” is used. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun “us” are plural forms, definitely referring in the Hebrew language to more than two. While this is not an explicit argument for the Trinity, it does denote the aspect of plurality in God. The Hebrew word for "God," "Elohim," definitely allows for the Trinity.

Isaiah 48:16...…………..(TWO)
"Draw near to me, hear this: from the beginning I have not spoken in secret, from the time it came to be I have been there.”
And now the Lord God has sent me, and his Spirit.

Matthew 3:16–17 ……(THREE, 1, Jesus is baptized--2, the Spirit of God is seen as a dove and a 3, voice speaks from heaven at the same time)
And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him; 17 and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am".

The doctrine of the Trinity has been a divisive issue throughout the entire history of the Christian church. While the core aspects of the Trinity are clearly presented in God’s Word, some of the side issues are not as explicitly clear. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God—but there is only one God. That is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Beyond that, the issues are, to a certain extent, debatable and non-essential.

Matthew 28:19 ...…...….(THREE)
"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father (1) and of the Son(2) and of the Holy Spirit (3).
 
Thanks Major. I will stick to the Hebrew Scripture for now anyway. The following might at least seem to point towards a Unitarian view:

Ezekiel 28:2

Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

Samuel 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

So how would you reconcile the above with God Himself having a human experience?

Thanks
 
I use the word "distinct" to describe the relationship among the three persons, but avoid the word "separate" because it implies distance when there is none.

In the three verses you quote, God speaks with one voice. It is an essential feature of God's trinitarian nature that He does speak with one voice, as I understand it. Jesus, while demonstrating distinctness, says He "only does what [He] sees the father do". He and the father speak with one voice.

There are many passages requiring oneness of God, many others requiring a distinction. For both groups of passages to be correct, we cannot have three persons acting independently, nor can God be simply one person.
 
Thanks Major. I will stick to the Hebrew Scripture for now anyway. The following might at least seem to point towards a Unitarian view:

Ezekiel 28:2

Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Numbers 23:19

God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not carried it through?

Samuel 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being, that he should change his mind.”

So how would you reconcile the above with God Himself having a human experience?

Thanks

thanks for asking. You used Ez. 28:2 and I am blessed to talk with you about this subject.

Most Bible interpreters and teachers believe that Ezekiel 28:2 is a dual prophecy, comparing the pride of the king of Tyre to the pride of Satan.
Some propose that the king of Tyre was actually possessed by Satan, making the link between the two even more powerful and applicable.

Personally, and from all the people I have read and studied over the years, this Scriptures does NOT teach Universalism doctrine.

Now, just to make sure you understand what you are saying, I feel as if I need to tell you that the Unitarian belief DIMISHES the Divinity of Jesus Christ.
One of the teachings of this faith is that Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism which was validated in 1899.
That is of course a completely non-Biblical teaching and I felt like you should know.

Now as for Numbers 23:19.

Allow me to say to you that the reasoning on this verse is that, if God is not a man, then the Christian claim that Jesus, a man, is God is false. Just as troublesome is the fact that Jesus repeatedly calls Himself the “Son of Man” in the gospels.

Now If we consider the Old Testament in isolation, which is the Jewish perspective, we shall not likely “prove” that Jesus Christ was man, God, Messiah, and Savior—although the indicators are all there.

Christians see the foreshadowing of the God-man in the Old Testament because the New Testament revelation helps interpret the Old Testament references. This brings up an important fact regarding biblical interpretation:
God reveals His truth progressively, over time. He has unfolded His purposes sequentially and as needed over the millennia.

Then of course 1 Sam. 15:29 says that God is NOT a man. That simply is a contrast between God and men. God can not lie and God because God is unchangeable, that in His dealing with men He must seem to change His action as they change their conduct. This is one aspect of the great problem which runs through all religion, how human free-will can coexist with the Divine Sovereignty. Scripture is content to state both sides of the question, and leave conscience rather than reason to reconcile them.
https://biblehub.com/commentaries/1_samuel/15-29.htm------"Cambridge College and Bible School".
 
Thanks guys, just to clear up. I do believe that Biblical Jesus spoke the truth, it’s obvious. I think I am just sort of looking for ways to evade responsibility that comes with it. Like I said in the prayer request. I still do sin, but at least to me it seems that most of it is not wilful( my sinning). I think that’s all that is. Don’t get me wrong, I am working on not doing it as much as i have the strength to do so.
Thanks
 
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Thanks everyone. Yes, through prayer, experiencing, doing I have come to believe in the trinity.

Thanks
 
John 8:57:58

57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”

58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
 
Thanks guys, just to clear up. I do believe that Biblical Jesus spoke the truth, it’s obvious. I think I am just sort of looking for ways to evade responsibility that comes with it. Like I said in the prayer request. I still do sin, but at least to me it seems that most of it is not wilful( my sinning). I think that’s all that is. Don’t get me wrong, I am working on not doing it as much as i have the strength to do so.
Thanks

Now in no way I am correcting you however I would point out something very important you as you grow in knowledge.

You said...…..
" I do believe that Biblical Jesus spoke the truth, it’s obvious. "

It is one of those things that must be believed by us. You see, if Jesus DID NOT speak the truth in any way, then He would be a sinner instead of our Saviour and if that is the case then we are all lost and headed for hell!!!!

You then said...…..
" I still do sin, "

YOU are just like every other person who has ever lived! We are all sinners and we all sin even after we are saved. We are FORGIVEN sinners but we still sin because the sin nature is never eradicated.

God bless you and keep on keeping on and the Holy Spirit will empower you!!!
 
My understanding has changed. I now believe that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God, but not God.
 
God ca


Hi Siloam. To put it simply I don’t think that anyone can in any way do to God what was done to Jesus. I don’t think you can crucify a Living God in any way.

John 15:13-14
13 Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do what I command you.

It is not that in some way man overcame God and did this thing to Him, but that God truly loves us so much that He became one of us and offered (was not overcome) himself so that we could be restored to fellowship with Him and still retain His holiness. All three persons of the trinity worked in concert to create this greatest of miracles.

This is beyond our ability to understand, and logic seems to fail as one closely examines this central truth but God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit is greater than our logic.
 
God ca


Hi Siloam. To put it simply I don’t think that anyone can in any way do to God what was done to Jesus. I don’t think you can crucify a Living God in any way.

You must understand that what was done was ALLOWED by the Father so as to redeem humanity.

The second thing to grasp is that while in His body, He was 100% MAN. He had to feel the same things we feel or He would not have been the God-Man.

You see, when Adam sinned he introduced sin to the universe. Sin separates man from God. God then said that BLOOD from a sacrificial animal would "cover" mans sin so as to restore that relationship......but it was only temporary. ALL the blood sacrifices, going all the way back to Abel pointed to the coming of the Messiah who would restore redemption, permanently.

According to Hebrews 9:22, ……….
“without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Blood represents life, as one of the first things that happens when someone dies is their heart stops pumping blood. Leviticus 17:11 states:...….
“For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one’s life.”

That Messiah who was promised came in Jesus the Christ.

Jesus was the plan of God all the way back to before the universe was created.

So then...…..no one did anything to Jesus that God the Father did not allow. HE gave His life voluntarily. He laid down His life so as to satisfy the demand of the Father.
 
I'm sorry if this reply is a bit long... it's actually very, very, short for what I was hoping to include.. There are so many places in scripture to be studied about this, there isn't room to list them all, or we'd simply have to list the entire Bible!
The purpose of listing these, is simply a few places to consider.... I believe when we truly seek the truth and pray and ask God to reveal to us what He would have us to know- that He will do that. But we have to receive it.
I'm not posting this to try to change your mind... but rather to answer your initial question, I have listed a FEW scriptures to consider as starting points to research, pray about, and study.
Take care & God bless.

============================


8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
[Revelation 1:8 KJV]

=============

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[John 17:17 KJV]


-----

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[John 1:1-5 KJV]

------

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[John 1:14 KJV]

-------

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[Matthew 7:7-8 KJV]

-------

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
[Proverbs 3:5 KJV]
-------

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 30 I and [my] Father are one.
[John 10:26-30 KJV]
-------

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
[Exodus 20:3-5 KJV]
-------

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[Philippians 2:5-11 KJV]
--------

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
[2 Corinthians 4:3-6 KJV]
============
 
Oh... and these :)

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
[Revelation 1:17-18 KJV]

A good study would be to use a Bible study tool to look up all of the "I Am" statements....
 
I'm sorry if this reply is a bit long... it's actually very, very, short for what I was hoping to include.. There are so many places in scripture to be studied about this, there isn't room to list them all, or we'd simply have to list the entire Bible!
The purpose of listing these, is simply a few places to consider.... I believe when we truly seek the truth and pray and ask God to reveal to us what He would have us to know- that He will do that. But we have to receive it.
I'm not posting this to try to change your mind... but rather to answer your initial question, I have listed a FEW scriptures to consider as starting points to research, pray about, and study.
Take care & God bless.

============================


8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
[Revelation 1:8 KJV]

=============

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
[John 17:17 KJV]


-----

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[John 1:1-5 KJV]

------

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[John 1:14 KJV]

-------

7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
[Matthew 7:7-8 KJV]

-------

5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
[Proverbs 3:5 KJV]
-------

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. 30 I and [my] Father are one.
[John 10:26-30 KJV]
-------

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
[Exodus 20:3-5 KJV]
-------

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; 11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
[Philippians 2:5-11 KJV]
--------

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
[2 Corinthians 4:3-6 KJV]
============

GOOD stuff!
 
Ok, thanks everyone. I suppose I have to do more research. There are verses where it seems different.
 
Ok, thanks everyone. I suppose I have to do more research. There are verses where it seems different.

Why not post "one" Scripture which you need to understand and allow the people here to help you with it.

If you do just "One" at a time, it will allow a more detailed and through discussion and then you can do another one when you believe that you have a better understanding.
 
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