If the trinity is not true

[Major]

Ah-HA! You just admitted it's NOT in the Bible! Could I get a notary to sign that?
I'm not saying that using words such as Trinity or Tri-unity can't be used when talking theology, but let's be honest about what it is...a human attempt to describe the indescribable. I'm talking about not exalting a concept or term developed by fallible, sinful, fallen sinners...developed by men who were not inspired writers of Scripture...and exalting it as an infallible profession of salvation. Followers of Christ were content with the mystery, not leaning on their own understanding (but by faith in Christ), for nearly 400 years before anyone came up with "trinity." The inspired New Testament writers wrote of facts such as the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit...they declared it...and it was accepted by faith. The eastern mind-set accepted the mystery of God...it was the western, Gentile mind-set that had to figure everything out with a formula then exalt it to the same level of Scripture.
As my favorite Christian singer once wrote:
God is God and I am not
I can only see a part of the picture He's painting
God is God and I am man
and I'll never understand it all
for only God is God

The word "Rapture" is not in the Scriptures either. Do you believe that there will be such an event?

Consider the accepted practice of understanding and teaching by a term called "Implied Truth".

That means a truth can be seen even if a particular word is not listed. All the information points to a certain thing even if that certain thing is not written or spoken.

Do you believe in the "Second Coming" of Jesus Christ. Where in the Bible are those specific words?

 

[Abdicate]

"Computers, car, airplanes are not in the word of God. Do they not exist?"
Well, yes, they do. But they have nothing to do with anything that matters. I don't quite grasp the comparison....I'm sorry.

The comparison is just because a word doesn't exist in the word of God doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Also things in the word of God exist for which people do not have a word for. Here's another example to bring it home. "DNA" doesn't exist in the word of God, or does it. Science is discovering that DNA holds a lot of data that holds information up to 3 generations, (1) and the DNA in the mitochondria goes back to a single female, and the Y Chromosome goes back to a single male. (2)

Now the word of God says that He would visit the iniquity unto the third and fourth generation. (3) We know that sin is passed down by the male which is why God said (4) that the devil would be bruised by "her seed", speaking of Jesus, Who was born sinless because Mary was a virgin. Noah was perfect in his generations (5) and since we know that we are all sinners, this means he was genetically whole unlike everything else around him. (6) Finally, Paul says that the word of God is written on our hearts. (7) But science says that 90% of our DNA is junk.(8) That's just arrogance. Our DNA if filled with who we are, who our parents were and who our grandparents were and what they experienced. In fact we can even change our DNA! (9) Which makes sense because the word of God says we can. (10) So here are all these evidence of something undefined and man gives it a name, DNA. Because we name something doesn't make it non existent or wrong. It just allows us to communicate the same idea by giving it a name. That's my point.

Ref:
1. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/fearful-memories-passed-down/
2. http://www.livescience.com/38613-genetic-adam-and-eve-uncovered.html
3. Deuteronomy 5:9
4. Genesis 3:15
5. Genesis 6:9
6. Genesis 6:12
7. Romans 2:15; 2 Corinthians 3:3
8. https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2014/08/05/how-much-of-human-dna-is-doing-something/
9. http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/changing-our-dna-through-mind-control/
10. Proverbs 23:7; Proverbs 4:23

 

[Big Moose]

Ah-HA! You just admitted it's NOT in the Bible! Could I get a notary to sign that?
I'm not saying that using words such as Trinity or Tri-unity can't be used when talking theology, but let's be honest about what it is...a human attempt to describe the indescribable. I'm talking about not exalting a concept or term developed by fallible, sinful, fallen sinners...developed by men who were not inspired writers of Scripture...and exalting it as an infallible profession of salvation. Followers of Christ were content with the mystery, not leaning on their own understanding (but by faith in Christ), for nearly 400 years before anyone came up with "trinity." The inspired New Testament writers wrote of facts such as the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit...they declared it...and it was accepted by faith. The eastern mind-set accepted the mystery of God...it was the western, Gentile mind-set that had to figure everything out with a formula then exalt it to the same level of Scripture.
As my favorite Christian singer once wrote:
God is God and I am not
I can only see a part of the picture He's painting
God is God and I am man
and I'll never understand it all
for only God is God

Read Matthew 28:19
Luke 3:22
John 14:26
Acts 2:32-33
Acts 5:30-32
then tell me what you want to call the doctrinal linkage of the three entities listed in all these scriptures. Do we really need to constantly say "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" every time we reference the linkage between the three? Or can we give a term for this which is doctrinal, a word that represents this doctrinal truth?

 

[Tad]

Only the absolute source of all existence can successfully claim to be God. Hosea 8:5-6
God as described in the Bible is that source. Genesis 1:1 , Colossians 1:15-17 , Revelation 4:11
1. God can not, not be God. 2. God can not, not know something. 3. God can not die.
However, God did Experience all 3 of the above as Christ, born in Bethlehem.
Everything was created in such a way so that God could
relate to His creation and demonstrate His love for His creation.
God created everything, time, space, everything.
God created the spiritual realm and manifests Himself spiritually as the Father.
God created the physical realm and manifests Himself physically as Christ.
Because of the physical death and resurrection of Christ, we all can partake of Gods Holy Spirit.
1 Timothy 3:16, John 14:9, Revelation 10:7.

 

[CCW95A]

Even though the words "rapture", or "trinity" are not found in scripture, they surely are taught within the Bible. Every scripture is true, but "truth" is found only when compared to other scriptures, which is how the Holy Spirit teaches the Saints by teaching us how to "compare spiritual truths to spiritual" (1 Cor 2:13). There are many many other truths found in scripture that do not use a single word to describe it, but are taught through out scripture.

Jesus said and did many more things than what we have written in our accepted Bible today, but what we have is enough that points us to the one who has all knowledge, and understanding.

 

[CCW95A]

A few years ago I encountered Jewish folks who had accepted Christ. They used the term "Tri-unity" rather than "Trinity." Tri-unity...three who is One. I thought that was interesting....so it appears that the word "Trinity" doesn't even have to be used. Neither God the Father, the Son nor the Holy Spirit are dependent upon a theology that we have developed in an attempt to describe Him or the way He works. The Holy Spirit was convicting people of sin, drawing people to Christ, and people were confessing and following Christ as Lord for centuries before anyone came up with the word "Trinity."

The name Jesus Christ is the only name we use in everything that we do. "What ever we do, we do in the name of Jesus Christ..." (Col 3:17)
Understanding the "trinity" is not something that can logically, analytically be discovered by man's own efforts. "For natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolish to him, neither can he know them for they are spiritually understood." (1 Cor 2:14)
All born again Christians believe in the trinity, because God himself is the only one who can reveal this truth unto them. No one knows who the father is except the Son, and and no one knows who the Son is except for the father, and unto whom he reveals him. (Luke 10:22) Only the Father reveals to us his Son, and only Jesus reveals to us our Father, and all this is being done by the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[geralduk]

The alternative doctrine espoused by many American Pentecostal churches is ONENESS in which the Godhead is not three distinct persons [one
of whom came to Earth in the flesh] but rather God is able to manifest Himself in different modes according to His purpose.
Thus God is able to be YHWH of the Old Testament, Jesus His only begotten son on Earth, and the Holy Spirit.
ONENESS claims that the scriptures support this, and there is no further need for speculative theology and interpretation.
As for myself I don't lose sleep over it.
What works for me is praying in the Spirit to my Lord and my God, Jesus, who is my intercessor and channels my prayers to my Father (by adoption) and to the Throne of Grace. And it comes back to me via the Holy Spirit as answered prayers, blessings, healings, miracles, provision and much much more...
It's like my TV and computer, in how it actually works I don't know, I just switch it on and use it.

Are we not to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God?
I do not like terminology that on the face of it sounds ok but you need a pound of salt to take with it.
I suspect that the 'oneness' theology has a serpent in the midst of it .

The foundation of any understanding that I have on the subject is simply how the Word of God teaches on the matter .
I would direct your atention to the fact that God has said on the one hand "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. and on the other that Jesus said "he proceedeth from the father " both on the foundation that "In the beginning was the Word"

in Christ
gerald

 

[Countryside]

Above and beyond our ability to understand is the grace of the one, true living God that does not expect us to fully understand or comprehend...but to believe and live out what He has said. Whoever has Christ has His Spirit, whoever has Him has the Holy Spirit. Whoever believes and honors the Son believes and honors the Father. It is amazing to us.
The amazement begins with "In the beginning....God."
It never ceases.

 

[Major]

Are we not to grow in grace and in the knowledge of God?
I do not like terminology that on the face of it sounds ok but you need a pound of salt to take with it.
I suspect that the 'oneness' theology has a serpent in the midst of it .

The foundation of any understanding that I have on the subject is simply how the Word of God teaches on the matter .
I would direct your atention to the fact that God has said on the one hand "man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. and on the other that Jesus said "he proceedeth from the father " both on the foundation that "In the beginning was the Word"

in Christ
gerald

Excellent!

 

[Major]

Above and beyond our ability to understand is the grace of the one, true living God that does not expect us to fully understand or comprehend...but to believe and live out what He has said. Whoever has Christ has His Spirit, whoever has Him has the Holy Spirit. Whoever believes and honors the Son believes and honors the Father. It is amazing to us.
The amazement begins with "In the beginning....God."
It never ceases.

Agreed and thus we have the Trinity! When we want to know what God would do in any situation, look to Jesus Christ and see what He did and you have the answer.

 

[JJ483]

16) Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning,; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath sent Me.
17) Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.
Isaiah 48:16-17
IMHO this is the WORD speaking before His incarnation as Flesh, speaking of the Father and Holy Spirit sending Him. So that we see each Member of the Trinity separately. The Prophet Isaiah seems to also point to the Godhead/Trinity in Isaiah 63:8-11.

Once I asked a UP man if Jesus is the same as the Father how could He submit Himself unto the Father: 27) For He has put all things under His feet. But when he saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. 28) And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. I Corinthians 15:27-28 Never did receive an answer. IMO this passage is telling us that because the Godhead, Colossians 2:9, loved us so much we see Jesus becoming poor that we might be made rich thought Him, II Corinthians 8:9. For even those Jesus is equal to the Father, He decided for His love for all who would accept Him as Savior to become a High Priest for us unto the Father; Hebrews 2:9-18 and as that High Priest He will submit Himself unto the Father for our perfecting thru His AWESOME FINISH WORK; Hebrews 10:14; John 19:30.

 

[popsthebuilder]

I was thinking today how sad it is for those who don't believe in the trinity. One-day when they grasp this / are completely sold on the idea, I doubt they will stay Christians.

If the trinity is not true:

1. John 3:16 'For God so loved the world'. Should read 'For God found someone to love the world'.

2. 1 John 14:8 'God is love'. Should read 'God is not love'. As true love is John 15:13.

3. Worshipping Jesus would be breaking the first commandment.

4. We would doubt the truthfulness of what the Holy Spirit teaches us.

5. We would not feel very special / care much for serving God. I mean David says give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. He can't be bothered to die for us. He gets some random unlucky fella to die for us and then demands we die to self? He sends a random spirit to teach us? Can't be bothered to teach us?

I don't believe there is a need to post more. These 5 points alone show how we can take so many scriptures and just throw them out if the trinity is not true. Every scripture on God being good, just and loving will be doubted for starters. Exactly what the devil would want.

I'm sorry but I must contend with what you say here. It is false, and misleading. I would sincerely like you to expound on how exactly the five verses you referenced would need to be any different if one believed in one GOD.

How would GOD not be loving if the trinity was a false doctrine of man?

While I've got your attention; could you explain why GOD would kill himself for his own pleasure, and how that relates to us being able to continue in sin? I'm sorry. I'll slow down. Please though, really, could you please attempt to justify your claim about people with faith in GOD that may differ from yours and how you came to these conclusions.

Also could you show scriptural support for the trinity other than a singular verse taken out of context?

Thanks.
I'm sorry for being so blunt, but I really have little patience for nonsense.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[KingJ]

1. I'm sorry but I must contend with what you say here. It is false, and misleading.

2. I would sincerely like you to expound on how exactly the five verses you referenced would need to be any different if one believed in one GOD.

3. How would GOD not be loving if the trinity was a false doctrine of man?

4. While I've got your attention; could you explain why GOD would kill himself for his own pleasure, and how that relates to us being able to continue in sin? I'm sorry. I'll slow down. Please though, really,

5. could you please attempt to justify your claim about people with faith in GOD that may differ from yours and how you came to these conclusions.

6. Also could you show scriptural support for the trinity other than a singular verse taken out of context?

Thanks.
7. I'm sorry for being so blunt, but I really have little patience for nonsense.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

1. Painful common sense is painful common sense.

2. Care to rephrase, I believe in one God and don't want to make assumptions on your statement.

3. Christianity 101 = 1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us. How deep would we love if His love was getting some unlucky fella to take the fall for us. The cross is the reason Christianity exists. Attacking the cross / mocking the depth of love God showed is a direct attack on Christianity. There is a reason John 15:13 was included in scripture / Johns teaching on Jesus.

4. Understanding God is quite difficult. Scripture for me points to God being like a burning fire of goodness and power. IE He is as good as He is great. It is in God's nature to love His creation. He is incapable of hating it. The cross was an inevitability for such a being. A given, even if only one human accept the sacrifice. God can't but do what is exceedingly good / loving. It pleases God to do what is good. That is why He 'killed' Himself.

You say continue in sin? As in grace is a license to sin? Please rephrase, I don't want to make an assumption.

5. Please be more specific.

6. There are many threads explaining the trinity with scripture. It should be clear from my OP that my goal here was a discussion on Christian common sense / lateral thought off a few key scriptures.

7. I have heard some strong arguments against the trinity. Perhaps share yours?

I accept that I am jumping on the toes of non trinitarians in my OP so I forgive you for being 'blunt'. But lets try talk less blunt.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Let's be loving and respectful with one another.
Blessings
FCJ

 

[popsthebuilder]

KingJ,

1) I agree.

2)I believe in one GOD too. I just couldn't rationally conclude what you said about those five verses so I asked you to try and explain. It seemed to go against common sense as far as I could tell.

3) 1 John 4 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4: Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1 John 4 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
5: They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6: We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1 John 4 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
9: In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him. 1 John 4 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
12: No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
13: Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
14: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
15: Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 1 John 4 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
16: And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17: Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
19: We love him, because he first loved us.
20: If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
21: And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. 1 John 5 (KJV) - 1ይ ዮሃንስ
1: Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2: By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3: For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Though these verses help us to understand the nature of GOD within our perception and the Will of GOD for us, and the terms which constitute our Faith as being true, I don't see any mention or hint or emphasis on a Trinitarian perspective as being needed to be of the truth and love of GOD. One not seeing the trinitsrian doctrine as essential for salvation or sanctification shouldn't be conflated with one who thinks Jesus the Christ was just some sorry bloak. That jump is asinine to me to be honest. According to scripture Jesus was wholly of GOD, he was utterly filled with the spirit of GOD. He was begotten of GOD. What many don't seem to grasp is that both GOD and the Christ say they are the beginning and end. This is true for both. As the Christ was the first begotten, and sets as the judge of all. Yet GOD, which none have seen, beget Christ, and appointed Him. There is no thing wrong with a Trinitarian view, but we must understand that begotten, though of the same substance, is ultimately subsidiary and not co eternal. Yet even, not understanding this isn't necessarily automatic forfeiture of salvation, or even sanctification. As we see from scripture, one need only to utterly believe that Jesus the Christ was the annointed of GOD, the Son of GOD, and in doing so understanding and abiding by what you know to be true(as in upholding the two commands of GOD) with eager, earnest, selfless, loving kindness. As taught by the Christ, through His example and selflessness to the point of death; not for any attainment of any reward, but for the sake of ALL.

John 15 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
12: This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
13: Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
14: Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
John 15 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
16: Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. John 15 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
17: These things I command you, that ye love one another.
18: If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. John 15 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
19: If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
20: Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21: But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. John 15 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
22: If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.
23: He that hateth me hateth my Father also.
John 15 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
24: If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
25: But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.
26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16 (KJV) - ዮሃንስ
1: These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.
2: They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

4)I agree that GOD is benevolent and omnipotent.

I disagree that GOD cannot be a just judge and a vindicator of wronged and a sentencer to all. Though admittedly, I go still agree that GOD is good and merciful, and compassionate towards It's creation. I don't see why this has too much to do with the trinity though.
Again you limit the power of GOD by saying the cross was inevitable. Who are you to claim such? Indeed, you must over flow with the Holy Spirit to say such strong things against GOD.

The self sacrifice of the Christ was for our sake. In no way was GOD bound to such, though the Christ indeed was as being wholly of the Will of GOD, begotten in Spirit before the formation of the earth.

Even if GOD killed himself for a sacrifice for himself, how does that equate to GOD being fully of good will like you say? It seams nonsensical and as such, no truth claims can really be made of it. As far as the continued sin goes; it just seams to be another part of a man made doctrine stemming from the same thing in a way.
If Christ payed for all the sins of all the world yet this payment is only received by those who believe, then how is it that none act as if they believe; for all of Christ's words are those of love and faith which leads to repentance and not sin; as we know that to be of sin(greed/hatred/placing those fleshly desires before GOD) is to not be of GOD.

5) I hope that I have been more specific here.

6)Common sense is indisposable; it is nonsense that I wish to contend with.

7)Again, I hope I have shared to at least some further level than I had previously. Yet I will gladly and humbly be happy to expound further upon request.

Bluntness may be a continued difficulty as not only is it natural for me, but I find that the fewest amount of words in order to make a point is often the clearest and most understood avenue towards comprehension.

Peace friend, with all humility, and hope.



Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[KingJ]

2) I believe in one GOD too. I just couldn't rationally conclude what you said about those five verses so I asked you to try and explain. It seemed to go against common sense as far as I could tell.

3) Though these verses help us to understand the nature of GOD within our perception and the Will of GOD for us, and the terms which constitute our Faith as being true, I don't see any mention or hint or emphasis on a Trinitarian perspective as being needed to be of the truth and love of GOD. One not seeing the trinitsrian doctrine as essential for salvation or sanctification shouldn't be conflated with one who thinks Jesus the Christ was just some sorry bloak. That jump is asinine to me to be honest. According to scripture Jesus was wholly of GOD, he was utterly filled with the spirit of GOD. He was begotten of GOD. What many don't seem to grasp is that both GOD and the Christ say they are the beginning and end. This is true for both. As the Christ was the first begotten, and sets as the judge of all. Yet GOD, which none have seen, beget Christ, and appointed Him. There is no thing wrong with a Trinitarian view, but we must understand that begotten, though of the same substance, is ultimately subsidiary and not co eternal. Yet even, not understanding this isn't necessarily automatic forfeiture of salvation, or even sanctification. As we see from scripture, one need only to utterly believe that Jesus the Christ was the annointed of GOD, the Son of GOD, and in doing so understanding and abiding by what you know to be true(as in upholding the two commands of GOD) with eager, earnest, selfless, loving kindness. As taught by the Christ, through His example and selflessness to the point of death; not for any attainment of any reward, but for the sake of ALL.

4)I agree that GOD is benevolent and omnipotent.

I disagree that GOD cannot be a just judge and a vindicator of wronged and a sentencer to all. Though admittedly, I go still agree that GOD is good and merciful, and compassionate towards It's creation. I don't see why this has too much to do with the trinity though.
Again you limit the power of GOD by saying the cross was inevitable. Who are you to claim such? Indeed, you must over flow with the Holy Spirit to say such strong things against GOD.

The self sacrifice of the Christ was for our sake. In no way was GOD bound to such, though the Christ indeed was as being wholly of the Will of GOD, begotten in Spirit before the formation of the earth.

5. Even if GOD killed himself for a sacrifice for himself, how does that equate to GOD being fully of good will like you say? It seams nonsensical and as such, no truth claims can really be made of it.

6. As far as the continued sin goes; it just seams to be another part of a man made doctrine stemming from the same thing in a way.

7. If Christ payed for all the sins of all the world yet this payment is only received by those who believe, then how is it that none act as if they believe; for all of Christ's words are those of love and faith which leads to repentance and not sin; as we know that to be of sin(greed/hatred/placing those fleshly desires before GOD) is to not be of GOD.

2. A parent who cannot give up their life for their child should the need arise, does not truly love their child. God is our Father. Not sure what you finding irrational about that. Is it the idea that God of the universe can be a Father and us, His children? You are opening the door to many unscriptural assumptions with your view imho.

3. You are confusing a truth that is meant to be simple. It sounds like you kind of believe in a type of trinity. Everyone can be forgiven for not grasping it at first. I mean on one hand we have Jesus talking to God and then on the other Jesus calling Himself God. This is why the truth of Jesus being Lord is a spiritual revelation. We could come close to grasping it with logical deduction as per my OP. I also like this classic from Napoleon http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html. But ultimately 1 Cor 12:3 could not be clearer. So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.

You say that Jesus is not co-eternal (underlined). This stems (imo) from holding on to some scripture and ingoring those that seem to conflict. This is why OSAS vs Arminianism, Calvinism and the trinity are endless circular debates. We cannot read the bible like that. Let's deal with all scripture on the subject. Yes, Jesus prayed to God. Yes, Jesus said He is God. These scripture among others cannot be ignored or blurred away:

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. All of God's creations have free will to rebel (A good God gives free will. He can't but give it as He is good) Only God is perfect / able to stay the same.

4. Forgive me if I am miss-interpreting you but the way you have worded your line seems as though you are pitting 'just' VS 'good'. IE You are implying God can be evil? That some of us are the complete opposite of His nature does not change His nature. He is love, fullstop. He is a loving judge. He stays perfect in love when passing sentence. He is the judge that every criminal wants.

5. The fact that God is the epitome of love / good is what Christianity is all about. As David says in Psalm 136:1 ''we give thanks because God is good''. (I like those 'because's' ). God being love has everything to do with why He died for us. It was inevitable for Him because... He is love. Does that really not make sense? If Jesus refused, would we be lost forever? God would not do it? Do you believe God is unable? There is something He cannot do?

6. A single action at a depth of intent can bypass many bad deeds James 5:20. A Christian sinks to a depth of intent when they decide to follow Jesus. The Holy Spirit judges heart and mind on a scale no human can Jer 17:10. He decides when to come in Rev 3:20 / give us a revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17. God does not make mistakes. I will not argue this with you though as ...we make mistakes. Many Christians do not have the fruits. So the only argument for me is on cart coming after horse.

7. Agreed. The full phrase is ''whomsoever believes in Him (IE He is Lord)''.

 

[popsthebuilder]

2. A parent who cannot give up their life for their child should the need arise, does not truly love their child. God is our Father. Not sure what you finding irrational about that. Is it the idea that God of the universe can be a Father and us, His children? You are opening the door to many unscriptural assumptions with your view imho.

3. You are confusing a truth that is meant to be simple. It sounds like you kind of believe in a type of trinity. Everyone can be forgiven for not grasping it at first. I mean on one hand we have Jesus talking to God and then on the other Jesus calling Himself God. This is why the truth of Jesus being Lord is a spiritual revelation. We could come close to grasping it with logical deduction as per my OP. I also like this classic from Napoleon http://www.thesacredpage.com/2008/04/napoleons-proof-for-divinity-of-jesus.html. But ultimately 1 Cor 12:3 could not be clearer. So I want you to know that no one speaking by the Spirit of God will curse Jesus, and no one can say Jesus is Lord, except by the Holy Spirit.

You say that Jesus is not co-eternal (underlined). This stems (imo) from holding on to some scripture and ingoring those that seem to conflict. This is why OSAS vs Arminianism, Calvinism and the trinity are endless circular debates. We cannot read the bible like that. Let's deal with all scripture on the subject. Yes, Jesus prayed to God. Yes, Jesus said He is God. These scripture among others cannot be ignored or blurred away:

Isaiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Rev 1:17 When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last,

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. All of God's creations have free will to rebel (A good God gives free will. He can't but give it as He is good) Only God is perfect / able to stay the same.

4. Forgive me if I am miss-interpreting you but the way you have worded your line seems as though you are pitting 'just' VS 'good'. IE You are implying God can be evil? That some of us are the complete opposite of His nature does not change His nature. He is love, fullstop. He is a loving judge. He stays perfect in love when passing sentence. He is the judge that every criminal wants.

5. The fact that God is the epitome of love / good is what Christianity is all about. As David says in Psalm 136:1 ''we give thanks because God is good''. (I like those 'because's' ). God being love has everything to do with why He died for us. It was inevitable for Him because... He is love. Does that really not make sense? If Jesus refused, would we be lost forever? God would not do it? Do you believe God is unable? There is something He cannot do?

6. A single action at a depth of intent can bypass many bad deeds James 5:20. A Christian sinks to a depth of intent when they decide to follow Jesus. The Holy Spirit judges heart and mind on a scale no human can Jer 17:10. He decides when to come in Rev 3:20 / give us a revelation of Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17. God does not make mistakes. I will not argue this with you though as ...we make mistakes. Many Christians do not have the fruits. So the only argument for me is on cart coming after horse.

7. Agreed. The full phrase is ''whomsoever believes in Him (IE He is Lord)''.

I don't deny Jesus is Lord, begotten of GOD. Neither did I imply that GOD is evil, only that justice and mercy aren't synonymous.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[KingJ]

I don't deny Jesus is Lord, begotten of GOD. Neither did I imply that GOD is evil, only that justice and mercy aren't synonymous.

Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

So He is a non eternal god (God? GOD?) according to you. He is either God or He is not. There is only one God.

 

[popsthebuilder]

So He is a non eternal god (God? GOD?) according to you. He is either God or He is not. There is only one God.

Yes there is only one GOD.

Christ and GOD are eternal as Christ was fully of GOD and returned to set on the right hand of GOD, holding back wrath and bringing mercy. Though the Christ and GOD can be considered the same, the man Jesus was not eternal in the flesh and was begotten of GOD.

I couldn't help but notice that you have yet to attempt to justify your claims about the five verses I initially responded about. Not have you answered any other question I have posed. I have answered all of your questions to the best of my ability. Would you please go back and answer mine?

Thank you
Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

 

[KingJ]

Yes there is only one GOD.

Christ and GOD are eternal as Christ was fully of GOD and returned to set on the right hand of GOD, holding back wrath and bringing mercy. Though the Christ and GOD can be considered the same, the man Jesus was not eternal in the flesh and was begotten of GOD.

I couldn't help but notice that you have yet to attempt to justify your claims about the five verses I initially responded about. Not have you answered any other question I have posed. I have answered all of your questions to the best of my ability. Would you please go back and answer mine?

Thank you
Peace

Faith in selfless Unity for Good.

I will gladly talk to you further when you agree that Jesus is God and eternal. You said Jesus is not co eternal. That is heresy in my books. It is Christianity 101 as I have explained. Christianity is about a blood covenant with God. For that God needs to shed His blood for us. Are you a JW?

As for me answering your questions, I have replied to everything you have said in simple point form. Feel free to address a point you want to further discuss. As for you addressing my questions, I don't see how quoting my post 56 with one line in post 57, does that.